Latest OU Suspect Test: Mega Metagross (voting results are in)

Dark Azelf said:
K so

1. In game "conquests" are irrelevant as is posting them in this forum and expecting people to take them seriously in a COMPETITIVE forum. Face real opponents.
2. Go look up what the ability "tough claws" does then you will realize why its that much stronger.
3. Go look up metagame speed tiers for oras why why outspeeding THINGS IT COULDNT BEFORE is relevant. Its not just walls and tanks.



edit: Tough Claws Zen Headbutt 2hkos mega Swampert and Tough Claws Grass Knot OHKOs.
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1) did you skim read my post for key words? I clearly stated my NON EV trained Swampert against a NON EV trained Steven's Metagross to illustrate that non EV Trained against non EV trained would be the same as maxed IV/EV for the same pokemon because everything would get the same 94 points (31 IVs, 63 points from EV training) in the various stats they maxed out on because EVERY pokemon has exactly the same stats as every other pokemon of the same species and evolution, it's the IVs and Evs that change the stats, meaning (since you probably skim read that) an in game mega metagross with 0 IVs in every stat and no EVs against an opponent with 0 IVs in every stat and no EVs is going to be somewhat equal footing to a mega metagross with 31 IVs in every stat and properly EV trained if the one going against it also has 31 IVs in every stat and is also properly EV trained as, again, they all have teh same 31 IVs to negate each other's boosts and can potentially have the additonal 63 points in stats to negate the opponents mesed stats.

2) Go look up the post you quoted where I CLEARLY said: "If it were a Mega Metagross with a life orb…" but a normal metagross with a life orb is the same as a mega metagross WITHOUT a life orb.

3) OMG speed means it can outspeed things?! I didn't know that! …well, except for that part that you quoted where I clearly stated "if it's going up against something bulkier and slower than it anyway, it doesn't matter if it gets a 9000% speed boost, both pokemon are still going in the same order they were going in originally anyway."

Its one thing to disagree with me, fine, but don't quote me when you make your points when I already addressed your point in the quote you're posting. I find that annoying because it just devolves into endlessly repeating the same thing over and over again because no one is reading what they are quoting.
 
Howmander said:
1) did you skim read my post for key words? I clearly stated my NON EV trained Swampert against a NON EV trained Steven's Metagross to illustrate that non EV Trained against non EV trained would be the same as maxed IV/EV for the same pokemon because everything would get the same 94 points (31 IVs, 63 points from EV training) in the various stats they maxed out on because EVERY pokemon has exactly the same stats as every other pokemon of the same species and evolution, it's the IVs and Evs that change the stats, meaning (since you probably skim read that) an in game mega metagross with 0 IVs in every stat and no EVs against an opponent with 0 IVs in every stat and no EVs is going to be somewhat equal footing to a mega metagross with 31 IVs in every stat and properly EV trained if the one going against it also has 31 IVs in every stat and is also properly EV trained as, again, they all have teh same 31 IVs to negate each other's boosts and can potentially have the additonal 63 points in stats to negate the opponents mesed stats.

2) Go look up the post you quoted where I CLEARLY said: "If it were a Mega Metagross with a life orb…" but a normal metagross with a life orb is the same as a mega metagross WITHOUT a life orb.

3) OMG speed means it can outspeed things?! I didn't know that! …well, except for that part that you quoted where I clearly stated "if it's going up against something bulkier and slower than it anyway, it doesn't matter if it gets a 9000% speed boost, both pokemon are still going in the same order they were going in originally anyway."

Its one thing to disagree with me, fine, but don't quote me when you make your points when I already addressed your point in the quote you're posting. I find that annoying because it just devolves into endlessly repeating the same thing over and over again because no one is reading what they are quoting.
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Except for the fact that Pokémon in game do have IVs and are not EV free. Battling any Pokémon will give you EVs, whether they follow a strict pattern, what we call EV training, or nor is a completely different thing. NPC's pokémon have randomized, or sometimes set (like the starter you receive from your rival in XY, 25 all along), IVs, just like every other non-bred Pokémon in the game.

Also, why bring up the fact that it outspeeds everything it already outsped as regular Metagross? That's not the point here. The point is that it is now faster than other threats and that of course matters. If MegaGross can OHKO your potential sweeper, or the offensive presence of your team before they can hit anything, well, then is when you know it is a problem.
 
Rabinov said:
So back to the topic in hand; I think it will definitely be a close vote leaning towards no at the moment, although maybe we just need to invest into some special antimegagross mons like Tangela!
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Wait people use Tangela to deal with Mega Meta?

wut
 
Just ban it then move on to talking about what gets banned next obviously

btw what does need to be banned next? Since all these bans make sense and we all understand the meta, we should be able to accurately predict what gets banned next. Right?




lol but seriously, it makes sense. Tough claws was a stellar ability to hand its mega, the stat increases are in proper areas for it to capitalize on them and not be locked into one thing, and even with steel nerf it's still got a great typing. The speed increase is also a dramatic effect, since that was one of its normal forms most blatant shortcomings. If y'all can't stand the other things that have gotten a ban, this one makes just as much sense to kick. Note- 'just as much sense' heh.
 
You just suck but I hope all mega's get banned one day c:
Okay maybe not all, audino is cute,
Also I don't get why Skarm isn't as popular as it should be given meta's op'ness
 
hmmm so at the risk of "mini modding" (uhhh whatever lol) here's a friendly reminder that it takes two (or more) to tango in crapping up a thread so maybe getting into a comment war with someone who is very obviously unfamiliar with how tiering works is not the best idea.

so anyway, i found this post to be very useful. in particular i find the argument about assuming that bans are fundamentally bad or unfortunate to be a really important point. people often say smogon is "ban happy" but even when people get annoyed with a lack of bans (like d_a), there is no equivalent rhetoric because i think that assumption that bans are bad has been built into the collective psyche of competitive players. will expand on this later if i have time since i have lots to say.

(also, just for some mega meta-specific stuff, i would agree that it has a fair amount of defensive checks, but i'd find the argument more convincing if i heard more offensive checks. though i do think it's important to recognize the double standard that comes in tiering here - balance/offense breakers make everyone upset, but stall and slower balance having to dance around m garde is np? idg that)
 
Zekrom said:
There's also the fact that Skarm can't do anything to Megagross besides phazing it out.
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Well Counter Skarmory was a rather common set on it last time i checked to pose a more immediate stop to things like that. You can also take the long drawn out route of setting up Spikes on it then Phazing or using Brave Bird and Roosting, the latter being shaky and only working vs EQ Gross cos if you Roost and Meta has enough Hammer Arm (used over EQ) speed drops you arent going to have a good time lol. (or SD/Curse Skarm LOL!)

srinator said:
You just suck but I hope all mega's get banned one day c:
Okay maybe not all, audino is cute,
Also I don't get why Skarm isn't as popular as it should be given meta's op'ness
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Skarm isnt used more because its basically a stall pokemon and everyone uses balance, fail or bulky/heavy offense team styles and Skarm kills your offensive momentum unless you use uhhh SD Skarm lol. Stall as a play style doesnt particularly struggle with MMeta due to its best checks being stall based (Skarm, Bro, Ferro, etc) but thats irrelevant and doesnt stop it being broken.

Anti said:
(also, just for some mega meta-specific stuff, i would agree that it has a fair amount of defensive checks, but i'd find the argument more convincing if i heard more offensive checks. though i do think it's important to recognize the double standard that comes in tiering here - balance/offense breakers make everyone upset, but stall and slower balance having to dance around m garde is np? idg that)
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Agree. I think this lies in the fact of like i said above "not many people using stall so they dont care if shit beats it" which is totally the wrong way of achieving balance in a tier but i digress. I mean i dont particularly like using most offensive builds, i find it frail, doesnt fit my play style etc. But if a pokemon ripped it a new one id absolutely still vote it uber. I also feel this is why more attention hasnt been bought to Gothitelle and Shadow Tag tbh. In a nutshell If you want balance ALL play styles should be at least somewhat viable, end of and stuff that shits on one playstyle isnt healthy in achieving said balance.

Anyway i think we can all agree offenses best answer is basically "Lando-T" or fodder team and revenge kill MMeta pmuch neither of which are good lol.
 
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I also think that post presented is right, because after Mega Salamence got banned, Greninja was next, and now Mega Metagross is on the stand. I'm under the mindset that regardless of what gets banned or what stays, something will be there that dominates the metagame and owns it regardless of what you do. As people have said, Fairy-types could get more rampant if Mega Metagross gets the boot.
 
Pendraflare said:
As people have said, Fairy-types could get more rampant if Mega Metagross gets the boot.
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Somehow I don't see this happening. Fairy-types were already a thing before the introduction of Mega Metagross, and the metagame wasn't centralized because of their presence. The only relevant Fairy-types in OU are Mega Diancie (and maybe regular Diancie), Mega Gardevoir, Azumarill, Mega Altaria, Clefable, Klefki, maybe Sylveon, aaaaaand maybe Togekiss. These aren't particularly centralizing 'mons (except perhaps Mega Garde, but that might be another topic entirely), and there are still plenty of things that can reliably stop Fairies.
 
Also the slippery slope argument is kinda a fallacy. There will be a certain point where all the bullshit mons get the boot and we will achieve a somewhat balanced metagame and everyone is somewhat happy. Obviously there still willbe the one or two noobs who think shit like Porygon2 is broken, but those people wont be listened to because its the mostly the entire community that has to feel something is broken for it to be tested, but i digress. It has happened before when all the suspects were banned. Think gen 4 uu or pre Latias post Salamence ban gen 4 OU as a precedent for this. Those were essentially the most balanced metagames in recent memory. All play styles were viable, nothing really stood out as "click STAB move button and foe fodders pokes because its op as fuck" and you actually had to use skill to open up sweeps.

Also stop saying "fairies will be op when mmeta goes". Whats stopping you from using normal metagross, are things like mega scizor, bronzong, Jirachi, skarm, ferro, Heatran etc suddenly irrelevant now? You dont actually lose anything from a MMeta ban so frankly that assumption is redic. Obviously Mega Gardy is another story because frankly that has less switch ins than mmeta itself apart from niche, largely otherwise mediocre, momentum killer pokemon, but again i digress.
 
Pardon my getting off-topic here, but i've heard rumblings about Mega Gardevoir being super strong. I know it gets STAB Psyshock along with Hyper Voice boosted by Pixilate, but what does it have aside from that that makes it so great again?
 
Pendraflare said:
Pardon my getting off-topic here, but i've heard rumblings about Mega Gardevoir being super strong. I know it gets STAB Psyshock along with Hyper Voice boosted by Pixilate, but what does it have aside from that that makes it so great again?
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Hyper Voice basically shreds what doesn't resist it, and most of what does is beaten by Psyshock (which is great so it's not so easily walled) and Focus Miss, especially if rocks are up, so very few things want to switch into Mega Garde.

If you use this: https://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/calc_bc.html?mode=one-vs-all

and put Mega Gardevoir (OU Offensive) as the "One", you'll see that the only things not annihilated by Garde are like Bronzong, Chansey (sorta), and Jirachi and a couple of other things the calculator probably didn't put in.

Also Taunt lets it screw with stall, while Will-o-Wisp can be used to cripple physically offensive threats that could possibly scare it.
 
massive facepalm x-x

if you won't even care to elaborate, why did you even bring up the case of 'pokemon in ou being cheap & whatnot' anyway :/

simple discussions and debates are always acceptable, as long as they make sense. no offense but your 'rant thread' was full of poor assumptions, let's try avoiding more stuff like that ya? ;x
 
PROTIP: We may be forced to accept opinions as a sign of respect, but that does not make your opinion automatically right.

Anyway, this thread is becoming very toxic so this is a final warning to everyone: if you're not going to post something relevant to the thread topic then don't post anything at all. That is all, thanks! :)

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To those who has been on the suspect ladder, how was it? I haven't gotten the chance to hop on it yet because I've been busy working on school stuff. :(
 
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