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life after death

Oryx

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    Is this something you want to believe or is it actual fact?

    I'm not sure what your definition of "fact" is, as there are fossils that, the farther back you go, are less and less like us and more and more like the primates we came from. There is even evidence of evolutionary branches, in the same way wolves and dogs evolved from a common ancestor. The only difference is the branches of our chain died out.

    Religion and evolution can coexist peacefully you know. For example, Catholicism is not against evolution although they believe that God created the world.
     

    Shiny Bunnelby

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  • I wanted to also add that is the definition for a lot of living things so do you want say that all animals including the humans evolved from a single animal and became all these different animals. Or should we use this same definition to show an organized creation that has been created. Lol by the way all this evolution makes me think we might be Pokemon.
    That definition is specifically and only pertaining to animals. Period. Yeah, it's a lot of living creatures, because there are a lot of living creatures that happen to meet the criteria to be defined as an animal. It is a massive category that encompasses billions upon billions of species that live and have lived. It doesn't change the fact that we fit that definition. We all evolved from simpler life forms over billions of years. Every single species picked up different traits through mutations, mostly caused by long-term exposure to external stimuli, such as warmer/colder climates, available vegetation, elevation, coastal/landlocked regions, soil content and quality, air quality, water sources/lack thereof, sun exposure, etc. In short, it is all location, location, location.

    The fact that each race of humans have different characteristics that just happen to be favorable for their region of origin could not just be a coincidence. It is because we adapted and still are adapting.

    Here is a link to the Smithsonian Institution's Website

    I am not going to sit here and have the same debate for the umpteenth time. Chances are, it won't make a difference no matter how much evidence is presented. But knock yourself out. It is at least a good read even if you aren't convinced.
     
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  • We can't compare humans to animals because we ARE animals.

    Now if you're insisting on comparisons to differing species, then be my guest. That would be the correct route. It doesn't change the fact that we still are animals. But we aren't chimpanzees or dogs.

    However, where is your proof that evolution is as flawed as you think it is? Evolution was never intended to explain the origin of life, but it does explain the fact that we adapted from our ancestors differently, which is why we still exist and they are extinct. It is all adaptation, not some miracle transformation. Do you really insist that you are not only more intelligent than over 90% of scientists, who I might add have RESEARCHED this time and time again for over a century, but also have all the answers? Intelligence Design is all talk and no proof. Evolution has troves of evidence backing it up and we keep finding more. Several people in this thread have given you several examples of proof, which you only debunked with your opinions, but I have yet to see any from you.

    The burden of proof is on you. The only thing you have is a bible and citations pointing at it. The problem is this, the Bible is your claim. You cannot use your claim as evidence. That is a logical fallacy known as Circular Logic. To leave any mark in a debate, you have to provide evidence outside of this claim. That evidence is to be used to back up your claim. Without evidence, your opinions mean nothing.

    I don't know if you realized this but I have not used any religious text as citation, I have used factual science and still you ignore it. Evolution is still not fact even if you ask these 90% of amazing scientists. I have clearly provided evidence but you choose to ignore it. Look, what ever you give me as long as it is fact I will not deny. You make it seem as if I am hard headed and ignore reality. Did you even read my messages? You did not answer to any of my responses probability, rational, DNA, and I gave explanation for the eye with fact not just believing in what ever someone else said with no proof.
    "Without evidence, your opinions mean nothing." What ever I have stated I have backed up.
     
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  • I'm not sure what your definition of "fact" is, as there are fossils that, the farther back you go, are less and less like us and more and more like the primates we came from. There is even evidence of evolutionary branches, in the same way wolves and dogs evolved from a common ancestor. The only difference is the branches of our chain died out.

    Religion and evolution can coexist peacefully you know. For example, Catholicism is not against evolution although they believe that God created the world.

    Fact as in undeniable. Religion and factual science can exist together.
     

    Shiny Bunnelby

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  • I don't know if you realized this but I have not used any religious text as citation, I have used factual science and still you ignore it. Evolution is still not fact even if you ask these 90% of amazing scientists. I have clearly provided evidence but you choose to ignore it. Look, what ever you give me as long as it is fact I will not deny. You make it seem as if I am hard headed and ignore reality. Did you even read my messages? You did not answer to any of my responses probability, rational, DNA, and I gave explanation for the eye with fact not just believing in what ever someone else said with no proof.
    "Without evidence, your opinions mean nothing." What ever I have stated I have backed up.
    Obviously, you didn't bother to read the fact that I posted a link to a scientific website that provides every single answer to every single question that you have asked. I did read your posts, hence why I provided the link. That is my source. Where is yours? -All I have seen is a website about Genesis, which is once again using claim as evidence.- Incorrect on my end. I took the website name at face-value. However, the eye's design may be complex, but that does not at all mean a creator invented it, for there is no valid proof beyond, "Well, just look at it." Please make a list and give me reading material. I don't want what YOU think. I want your facts. That's all. I will gladly go through them and see if it changes my own views. If it is a religious website that you direct me to, I will read it, but it won't to anything, as it will use your claim as evidence. It has to be purely scientific. If you can do that, then awesome, I will take a look at it and fact check it. Meantime, read the contents of the website that I had provided.
     
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  • Obviously, you didn't bother to read the fact that I posted a link to a scientific website that provides every single answer to every single question that you have asked. I did read your posts, hence why I provided the link. That is my source. Where is yours? All I have seen is a website about Genesis, which is once again using claim as evidence. Please make a list and give me reading material. I don't want what YOU think. I want your facts. That's all. I will gladly go through them and see if it changes my own views. If it is a religious website that you direct me to, I will read it, but it won't to anything, as it will use your claim as evidence. It has to be purely scientific. If you can do that, then awesome, I will take a look at it and fact check it. Meantime, read the contents of the website that I had provided.

    By the way I stand corrected on saying religion and factual science as not all religion is truth. I meant to say one creator who created everything and science can be proved to confirm that and vice versa, so it must be a religion that does not contradict itself. I apologize if I posted a religious link I was actually looking specifically on the eye portion of it. As for the facts I have used you should know them since your into evolution you should know what DNA is made of, you realize nothing happens out of nothing, and as for the eye I am pretty sure I explained that clearly.
     

    Oryx

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    Fact as in undeniable. Religion and factual science can exist together.

    Evolution is as undeniable as gravity. Just because you can come up with an idea that is different than evolution doesn't mean it's not a fact; you could say that you think that gravity is caused by an undetectable gas in our atmosphere and not by mass of the object with gravity, but that doesn't make your idea logical. What about the clear evolutionary and genetic line of fossils from primates to humans confuses you?
     
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  • You say it is undeniable as gravity but you cannot prove it like you can gravity. Your giving me your opinion not proving evolution is fact even though the people who came up with it say is theory yet for some reason you believe it is fact?
     

    Oryx

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    Gravity is a theory as well. A scientific theory. Those are different from your kind of theory. The fact that you dismiss it as clearly different is amusing, because the whole point is, from a scientific perspective, they are identically proven. If you believe in the theory of gravity because you think it's scientifically proven, then you agree with evolution because it is also scientifically proven. As much as science can ever "prove" anything; science cannot say for certain that the next thing you drop won't fall up instead of down, but based on our knowledge of the world that is incredibly unlikely. Just like science can't prove a jerk God who likes to mess with the heads of humans (some God you've got there) didn't plant fossils of people that never existed. However, based on our knowledge of fossils and evolution in general, we can assume that this isn't the case.

    http://adamkemp.newsvine.com/_news/...ature-of-science-why-gravity-is-just-a-theory

    Everything you "know" scientifically is a theory. Nothing is proven. If you believe in gravity, if you believe in the concept of outer space, if you believe that planets orbit one another, if you believe that there are plates under the earth that cause earthquakes along fault lines, then you are putting your belief in a theory. Claiming "it's a theory therefore you're wrong" is...ignorant, to put it bluntly. If you want to debate science, you first have to understand science, and you do not.

    Edit: Really, put aside religion for a moment and just think about evolution from a common sense perspective. You know that mutations happen to children in the womb, because they still happen today. Most of the time, they're detrimental. But think about two creatures. One is completely blind. The other can sense darkness and light, through a genetic mutation. It's logical to assume that the one that can sense darkness and light will be more likely to survive, as it will be able to get out of the open and into cover since it can tell where cover is based on shadow and light. It won't be hunted as much, it won't be exposed to the elements, etc. Thus over generations that gene mutation, of sensing darkness and light, will be more likely to be passed on because that person is alive longer to breed. Then another mutation comes along; another person has the ability to see vague shapes. They're going to be able to hunt better, find things better, find other people better, escape predators better. They'll survive longer than the person that can just detect darkness and light, and will be more able to find mating partners, so they'll have more children and in the end their genes will be passed on. This is how it works; a completely logical set of events leading in the end to a feature of ourselves (in this example, the eye) developing over millions of years.
     
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    Shiny Bunnelby

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  • I don't know if you realized this but I have not used any religious text as citation, I have used factual scie is still not fact even if you ask these 90% of amazing scientists. I have clearly provided evidence but you choose to ignore it. Look, what ever you give me as long as it is fact I will not deny. You make it seem as if I am hard headed and ignore reality. Did you even read my messages? You did not answer to any of my responses probability, rational, DNA, and I gave explanation for the eye with fact not just believing in what ever someone else said with no proof.
    "Without evidence, your opinions mean nothing." What ever I have stated I have backed up.

    By the way I stand corrected on saying religion and factual science as not all religion is truth. I meant to say one creator who created everything and science can be proved to confirm that and vice versa, so it must be a religion that does not contradict itself. I apologize if I posted a religious link I was actually looking specifically on the eye portion of it. As for the facts I have used you should know them since your into evolution you should know what DNA is made of, you realize nothing happens out of nothing, and as for the eye I am pretty sure I explained that clearly.


    I wasn't involved in the eye argument, but I can happily provide a source that argues against the claim. The link you posted was just tricky and I gave it a chance. It is a great source for the Irreducible Complexity view, which for a while, was very powerful.

    I do have something that refutes it: http://www.talkdesign.org/faqs/icdmyst/ICDmyst.html
     
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  • It is ok guys I'm gonna end here if you cannot understand that everything on this earth coexists as a part of a creation and not some random accident that's fine. Just realize for a minute what randomness would look like and how it is possible that it can come all together. Think about the sun , moon , planets, day/night and stars that it must of been an almighty creator who brought all this together and aligned them not coincidence( don't say Big Bang as it is a theory lol) . Just like you go through school by tests and depending on how well you did you will be raised a level and this is how life is. This life is a test and we will see our results in the afterlife. Good debate everyone and I apologize if I offended anyone and I hope you can forgive me.
     

    Nah

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    It is ok guys I'm gonna end here if you cannot understand that everything on this earth coexists as a part of a creation and not some random accident that's fine. Just realize for a minute what randomness would look like and how it is possible that it can come all together. Think about the sun , moon , planets, day/night and stars that it must of been an almighty creator who brought all this together and aligned them not coincidence( don't say Big Bang as it is a theory lol) . Just like you go through school by tests and depending on how well you did you will be raised a level and this is how life is. This life is a test and we will see our results in the afterlife. Good debate everyone and I apologize if I offended anyone and I hope you can forgive me.
    The sun, moon, and planets are really just big balls of matter condensed by gravity. Even solar systems and galaxies are just gravitational attraction on a large scale.
    Also, the Big Bang theory was originally proposed by a Catholic priest, iirc.

    @Oryx: Isn't gravity a law and not a theory?


    But I think what would most helpful for the debate here is if you could condense all your points and links into a single post for everyone. It'd be easier for us to see what you're saying if you do that; everything's kinda scattered throughout the thread atm.
     

    ANARCHit3cht

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    You say it is undeniable as gravity but you cannot prove it like you can gravity. Your giving me your opinion not proving evolution is fact even though the people who came up with it say is theory yet for some reason you believe it is fact?

    Prove gravity exists: Drop an object. Note it falls instead of floating.

    Prove evolution exists: Look back through history. Take notes of the different species that have existed throughout time. Compare them with the species we have today. Look at the the similarities and the differences. Look at the environments they lived in and notice what in these environments cause these changes.

    I don't think you quite comprehend the concept of evolution in its most basic form. It's not as if is something wakes up in the morning and has changed its form. Evolution is a slow process that takes place of many, many, many thousands of years. How it works, is simple. Allow me to use, let's say... mice as an example. In their most basic structure, you have white mice and black mice. Now let's use a forest as the environment.

    1.) What do you expect to live longer, and thus produce more offspring?
    2.) Why is this true? And what does it entail?

    1.) Clearly, in that environment, the darker mice.

    2.) The darker color of their fur allows them to camouflage better among the similarly colored forest floor. This makes it harder for predators to notice them, as opposed to say a white mouse that would produce a stark contrast. They would survive longer, and thus produce more offspring with their particular phenotype. The mice who don't have the phenotype of dark fur would begin to die off as they are more easily hunted by prey leading to a decreased number of offspring with this phenotype in the next generation as the parental generation didn't live as long and thus produced less offspring. It wouldn't happen over night, but you would slowly begin to notice the population of mice shifting to those of a darker fur color. THAT is evolution. And it does not occur in individuals, but rather species.

    Another example you can take are the Galapgos finches/mockingbirds/birds etc. The different environment causes them require different methods of doing things, such as obtaining food. This video below explains it pretty well.



    Also, you continue to use circular reasoning. You say look at these wonderful things? They had to made by God because they're so wonderful. That is not logic at all.

    tl;dr: I don't think you understand what evolution is. You don't just wake up one day being a different species. In fact, individuals don't evolve at all--species do. For example, a bird that uses it long beak to gather food in cracks and crevices of trees and other plants. The birds with longer beaks will find this easier to do. They get more food, and they get easier, reducing the food for birds with smaller beak. This establishes their presence over the birds with small beaks and they become of the particular species of bird that exists on the island due to the fact that the small beaked birds have no way of competing for what is a limited supply of resources. THAT is evolution.

    EDIT: Oh, and I'm curious when you say not all religion is truth... do you include aspects of your own religion? Or just other religions that you don't believe in? And furthermore, do you have evidence to prove that the religion you're back is any more true than a religion you don't believe in?
     
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    Oryx

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    The sun, moon, and planets are really just big balls of matter condensed by gravity. Even solar systems and galaxies are just gravitational attraction on a large scale.
    Also, the Big Bang theory was originally proposed by a Catholic priest, iirc.

    @Oryx: Isn't gravity a law and not a theory?


    But I think what would most helpful for the debate here is if you could condense all your points and links into a single post for everyone. It'd be easier for us to see what you're saying if you do that; everything's kinda scattered throughout the thread atm.

    A scientific law is only something that can be summed up in a succinct sentence or an equation. The law you're referring to is Newton's law of gravity, an equation, which used to be considered fact beyond a doubt but has since shown to not be helpful in all instances (that's where relativity comes in). Laws and theories are both able to be disproven, they just describe different things.

    http://science.kennesaw.edu/~rmatson/3380theory.html
     

    Nah

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    A scientific law is only something that can be summed up in a succinct sentence or an equation. The law you're referring to is Newton's law of gravity, an equation, which used to be considered fact beyond a doubt but has since shown to not be helpful in all instances (that's where relativity comes in). Laws and theories are both able to be disproven, they just describe different things.

    http://science.kennesaw.edu/~rmatson/3380theory.html
    Ah, ok. Thanks for clarifying that.
     
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  • I'd post something but don't got no time so all I'll say is that some of yall should've paid more attention in bio class. It's in the curriculum, so there's no reason why any of us shouldn't be on the same page. Unless curricula differ and I don't know, evolution isn't taught in some places.
     

    Phantom1

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  • I'd like to remind you that a lot of what we see in modern science came from the direct contributions of medieval Christian scholars and the Islamic world. The father of genetics was a monk named Gregor Mendel, and the founder of the big bang theory was a Belgian priest named Georges Lemaitre. Chemistry as a science was institutionalized in the form of alchemy under various Arab scholars during the Fatimid dynasty.

    True, but how many great minds were snuffed because religion refused to accept facts that denied their beliefs?

    In the present day, organized religion tends to delve deeper into science as well. The Vatican has its own Pontifical Academy of Sciences, and the Dalai Lama spends a lot of time with scientists and even wrote: "My confidence in venturing into science lies in my basic belief that as in science, so in Buddhism, understanding the nature of reality is pursued by means of critical investigation. If scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims."

    'Delve deeper into science as well'

    Last I checked, the RCC still believed their god came in the handy form of a cracker.

    How many years did it take for the church to accept that the Earth moved around the sun? How many years did science have to hide underground for fear of 'divine' retribution? Perhaps now its changing its tune, now that science has progressed so far, but had it never existed... imagine how far we'd be right now.

    What do you mean by "discover"? Almost every faith describes soul as immaterial, and thus unobservable by physical technology. The soul is more than just consciousness and psychological behavior -- it is the person's actuality, essence, and psyche.

    The soul does not exist.

    Did you know that Christianity does not, at its heart, believe in a soul either?

    According to the Bible, the dead are dead, nothing more, until Judgment day.

    I refute this conclusion: you cannot say that morality is not unique to humans when there is no absolute proof that animals have morals. There is no verdict from the scientific community as a whole, and it is possible that animals observed to have shown actions similarly agreeable to human morality could be a mere combination of instinct and emotions, which do not necessarily equate to morality.

    What we attribute as morals for our species need not apply to all species.

    Morality is nothing but a evolutionary trait developed over thousands of years to ensure the survival of the species.

    Animals may have their own set of morality different than our own, as is to defend their species from extinction.

    As for the theory lets go with the scientific use of it, how was evolution tested and proved over and over? Why did all the monkeys all of a sudden stop evolving. Why can we not get a talking Ceaser.

    'Caesar'.

    And we can't because humans did not evolve from monkeys.

    We are a completely separate species that has similar traits to APES not monkeys. We are the evolved version of a species that is now gone... because the evolutionary tree split. We share only a common, long gone, ancestor. There were many different species of human before the current one took evolutionary control. Hell, humanity is still evolving, we can see it in something as common as our teeth.

    Have you ever heard of someone having their wisdom teeth removed? Something so simple an idea and common a practice that many do not look at its significance to the proof of the evolutionary theory.

    Wisdom teeth are a vestigial part of our body. Vestigiality is a parts or functions of the body that do not have any or have lost much of their original functionality. Humans do not need wisdom teeth. In fact, they cause problems enough that many need to be removed. In the case of wisdom teeth, they were originally meant to help our ancestors grind plant matter better. Though over time our mouths have gotten smaller, more crowded, and there is not enough room for the new teeth, causing damage to the mouth. (Our brains expanded, got larger, but our skulls did not. That meant that our jaw had to shrink in order to fit our brain, it's an interesting study.)

    But did you know they are slowly going away? Already there are cases where people simply do not have the teeth. I, for example, do not have all four wisdom teeth. I only have two, on my left side. Neither did my mother, she only had them on the bottom. This is a sign of evolution. Happening right now. My children most likely would not have all four wisdom teeth, and my grandchildren less. My new gene, without all four wisdom teeth will pass on, and soon there will be a descendant without any at all.
     

    obZen

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  • I always found it interesting how humans act when it comes to the dead.
    We're the only animals that bury our dead (someone please correct me if I'm wrong, PM me, quote reply, whatever).
    What is it about death that preoccupies us?
    We constantly look for answers to questions that make us yearn so much to justify our existence
    Religious people seemingly hold onto the idea of prayer as some magic force that turns the hand of our universe. It really would be comforting if it worked that way
    The thought of an eternal happy ending is great, who doesn't want that?
    However, most people struggle to look at this option- maybe we really aren't that special, and we won't be around forever.
    Everyone dies, but not every gets a chance to live.
    It's a scary thought, and a sad one at that (still births).

    I personally don't belief in a supernatural / spiritual afterlife; when we die, we die. We decay and become one with our universe. Matter cannot be destroyed, but can be converted into energy and vice versa. Therefore, we are technically never gone.
    I find it more comforting in this, than some extraneous afterlife based on how you lived.
    I really don't think burying the dead in coffins to "preserve" them serves a purpose beyond making us feel better, that we honour our dead.
    We're literally gonna run out of space, eventually.
    Plus, it's a dishonor in my eyes that we are prohibited from decaying naturally and rejoining Earth.
     

    The Void

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  • True, but how many great minds were snuffed because religion refused to accept facts that denied their beliefs?

    Millions. But the certain belief that science would be way more advanced had religion not existed is a logical fallacy. As belief in the unknown is a main element of human nature, we do not know what might take the place of superstition, whether it be better or worse.

    Last I checked, the RCC still believed their god came in the handy form of a cracker.

    The concept of transubstantiation is a purely supernatural belief of the RCC. Like the soul, the presence of Jesus within the Host does not affect a single physical molecule of the wafer.

    The soul does not exist.

    Did you know that Christianity does not, at its heart, believe in a soul either?

    According to the Bible, the dead are dead, nothing more, until Judgment day.

    The terms 'spirit' and 'soul' are synonymous. God is a spirit, and is thus the supreme soul. Seeing as the Bible is all about God, Christianity certainly believes in a soul, excluding certain denominations that specifically disregard the soul out of their doctrines.

    What we attribute as morals for our species need not apply to all species.

    Morality is nothing but a evolutionary trait developed over thousands of years to ensure the survival of the species.

    Animals may have their own set of morality different than our own, as is to defend their species from extinction.

    There is a misunderstanding then. Morality in this sense is clearly relative, and so I used morality to mean human morality and conscience.
     
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