Love instead of EV's! (A letter to all trainers, especially to competitive ones)

[MrsNorrington]

BartCiao, I totally 100% agree with you!!!! I thought I was the only sane one who believed that and played the Pokemon games like that.

I get so angry when I go to online Pokemon forums and all people care about when it comes to their Pokemon is it's nature, IVs, EVs, etc. It's just so cruel if you think about it. What if these were real life creatures. Would we just throw them away? In fact real life abuse like this does go on, and it comes from the same motive that these gamers have and that's a scary thing. There are people who race horses, and if their horse looses a race, they sent it to slaughter and get a new horse.

I treat my Pokemon the exact same way that I treat real life animals. I treat them as the individuals that they are. I make them the best that they can be given the traits that they have been given. And that's exactly what Pokemon is about. Anyone who's seen the anime would know this-it's Ash's main message throughout the entire series.

I'm very very passionate about what you said BartCiao. I would not enjoy these games if I only looked at my Pokemon as pieces of data. Where is the fun in that? I use my imagination, and escape into the world of Pokemon. I bond with my Pokemon, I love them as they are and I would not get rid of them if they have "bad" stats. As I said, Pokemon is about friendship between humans and animals. They work together to become the best they can be, given what they have. They are not to be thrown away and abused like pieces of garbage-this was demonstrated by Ash's rival in the Diamond and Pearl series-Paul. He really abused all of his Pokemon, got rid of them when he thought they had bad stats. Treated them as being replaceable by something better. We learn from the rivalry between Ash and Paul, that Pokemon are individuals and should not be treated as trash. It makes me so sad that most people online are like Paul, and not Ash ='( As for me, I will always play Pokemon the same way that Ash does.

 

[Elite Overlord LeSabre™]

Here's my take on this matter. I use my favorite Pokemon for battles, instead of simply "who's strongest." Heck, I routinely use Persian, which I am aware is not a top-tier battling Pokemon by any stretch of the imagination.

However, I make sure that the preferred Pokemon that I use are among the best they can be. That includes mass breeding, checking IV's, ditching the ones with crap IV's, properly EV training them, and teaching them optimum movesets. Why would I use a Pokemon with a 2/5/13/7/6/4 IV spread when I can easily get one with 18/23/25/30/27/22? Why would I give Jolteon a bunch of Attack EV's by battling random Pokemon when I can maximize its Speed by simply being more selective in which Pokemon I battle? Why would I not give my Pokemon an advantageous move in battle just because I have to breed for it?

I use the Pokemon species that I like, who may not be the strongest. Why would I further hinder my chances at winning by using Pokemon within those species that are substandard?

And competitive battlers are in no way less skilled - that claim is completely false. It takes a lot of skill and patience to master breeding chains, get specimens with reasonably good IV's, and plan out optimum movesets for battle. It isn't simply a matter of what Pokemon you work with... it's what you do to make your selected Pokemon the best they can be.

But I do "love" my Pokemon. But only because Persian gets a 102-power STAB attack in the form of Return :P

 

[The Red Chain]

I agree with you now. I see your point. Some people just don't have enough imagination to see Pokemon in another way than pieces of data.

That's a little rude don't you think? Saying someone doesn't have imagination for not having the same view as you is disrespectful.
To be respected, you must first learn to respect. In other words, if you want people to take your view seriously, then you have to respect theirs first.
​

 

[KnilShadowLink]

Hmmm it seems to be popular to say Pokemon are just pieces of data...Well yeah that's true, but it's perfectly fine to grow attached to pieces of data, it's called sentimental value. I DO breed for certain natures, and decent IVs. I EV train my favorite Pokemon and then grow attached to them. I do pretend that the Pokemon are real, but that's only when I'm playing my game. Once I'm done playing I know that the Pokemon are just data, but I use my imagination and pretend that they're real. I pretend because I love Pokemon and think it would be amazing if Pokemon were real.

I will say this though, it does kind of sicken me when people act like Pokemon are nothing more than chess pieces. I know it's the truth, but I feel like the people that think that are boring and have no imagination Maybe it's because I grew up with Pokemon and have always pretended they were real, but I try and avoid people who think like that.

BTW sorry if my rambling made little to no sense...I'm not very good at putting my thoughts into words xD

 

[Zaroas]

*Sigh*

I actually completely disagree with both sides.

To BartCiao and supporters:
Ok,, so maybe I use Shoddy, EV train, and try to use strong Pokemon. That doesn't necessarily mean I treat them as mindless drones like some of you are assuming everyone online does. Not everyone online is a living copy of this Paul character, and you're not automatically skilled if you use Pokemon you love. Say I loved Rattata a lot. If I use a party full of Rattata, does that mean I'm necessarily skilled? Does that mean that everyone online that uses strong Pokemon is pretending to be skilled? How do you even pretend to be skilled? Just because someone is saying Pokemon are pieces of data (Which would be correct) doesn't mean that they have no imagination. It's a good thing you guys are using your imagination, but it all boils down to the fact that it's a game. That's fine if you want to treat Pokemon with love - But don't go around yelling at people that don't. You have your own opinions, and they have theirs.


To the people on the other side of the argument:
You guys need to respect what they believe. If they use their favorite Pokemon and treat them with love, that doesn't mean you have to argue with people that are trying to use their imaginations and treating their Pokemon as pets. Yes, Pokemon are nothing but code, but some people treat them differently than you. Because of that, you should stop outright saying they're being stupid and such, but respect their opinion.

I personally do not see why this thread had to exist. It's just turning into a war.

 

[BartCiao]

Not everyone online is a living copy of this Paul character, and you're not automatically skilled if you use Pokemon you love. Say I loved Rattata a lot. If I use a party full of Rattata, does that mean I'm necessarily skilled?

No, if you WIN with the Pokemon you love you are a truly skilled trainer. If you are able to make a strategy in which your beloved Pokemon are very good, then you are a truly skilled trainer. And I guess your kinda skilled if you win with a team of rattatas:D

*Sigh*
I personally do not see why this thread had to exist. It's just turning into a war.

This thread exists to point people at the fact that they're using Pokemon as battle machines. At least, at the beginning. Now the discussion, not the war, is getting broader.

Haha, I like what you say MrsNorrington:D

 

[Zaroas]

Pokemon were meant to be battle "machines", right from the beginning. Look at any Pokemon game, except games like Pokemon Trozei. The purpose for them is to battle. That's why people are treating them like they are - Because that's what they were supposed to be! Is the purpose of a Pokemon game to become BFFs with your Pokemon? Not really, the challenge the games presents is to try to defeat other Trainers in battle. People enjoy battling, and want strong Pokemon help them win, which they're supposed to be doing in Pokemon. You can't yell at people for doing something they're supposed to in a game. It's supposed to be fun, and that's what battles are - Fun, not a matter of love for made up, pixely creatures.

 

[Corruptodile]

'No, your just a silly sentimental trainer'.

Just kidding. Zaroas hit it right on the bat though. Favourite Pokémon? Fine go ahead use it, they're not making it illegal for you to use your favourite Pokémon/friends. In it to win it? Fine, perfect them for your needs.

People need to respect others opinions, no matter how 'stupid or immoral' they may be. I myself, do not see the point in 'loving' a bunch of pixels. I would however, breed my favourite Pokémon to perfection, ones that appeal to me the most (for me, Qwilfish and Lanturn), to make them the best they can be. I play to have fun, and I have fun by battling. When it comes to battling, I want my Pokemon to be top notch and the best they can be, if that makes sense to you all.

 

[WriteThemWrong]

you can't blame people for doing everything they can to win but competitive battling is extremely monotone and bland. you see the same pokemon being used, the same strategies, the same held items, every competitive battle is extremely similar to each other. i think what the creator of this topic wants is a little more uniqueness as well as attachment.

 

[dragon0fangz]

i agree with you. there is a reason why i play pokemon, after all... I love using my favorite pokemon, and raising it, and actually playing the games, and watching my favorite pokemon be strong. and as for competive battling, i use my favorite pokemon as well, separated by tiers. those darn tiers >: ( ive never liked competive battling. also, the challenges are really fun, as they add an extra feeling of satisfaction, when you've finished the games, and the pokemon hacks are just awesome, they allow you to experience brand new storylines, and sometimes brand new pokemon (fakemons, but still...)

 

[fenyx4]

Ah, I love that aforementioned Karen quote... :) :cer_love:

I have to admit, I actually do breed/utilize Synchronize for specific natures, and I'm planning to use those EV-enhancing items for breeding as well (though the whole IV situation irritates me at times, because it gives an unfair edge to higher-IV Pokemon). But, emotionally, I invest a lot in the Pokemon... Though I can't truly interact with Pokemon in reality (*yet*), the Pokemon games at least allow me to simulate that experience.

As with the "pets" thing, I guess that's one of the closest approximations to the human-captured Pokemon relationships, but I'd rather have a flaming fighting chicken for a virtual "pet" than a vicious dog that's just going to bark at me all day for the heck of it (though not all dogs are like this)

Anyway, I'm glad I'm investing my love into Pokemon. Anyone can make data respond to other bits and bytes of data and parameters (if that was what I bought the game for, all the spriters, mappers, and translators essentially wasted their time, since we really don't need those for the data to interact.

I mean, Blaziken Blaze-Kicking Jigglypuff could simply be rendered as "Set 257 initiates Sequence #299 to alter Parameter 1 of Set 039", where:
Set 257 = Blaziken, Pokemon #257
Initiation = Selected command
Sequence 299 = Blaze Kick, with index number 299
Parameter 1 = The Hit Point (HP) Statistic
Set 039 = Darn JigglyPuff, Pokemon #039

Sets, sequences, and parameters. Exactly WHY would I want to interact with something of such... BLAHness...? So boring! Thankfully, Game Freak has transformed that crap into beasts of power, wonder, and mystery, accompanying you on the lifechanging experience called "Pokemon (insert version name here) Version"... If I'm investing hours of time and effort in one game/series, you can be sure I'm going to make that experience authentic, where I'm not seeing sets of data respond to other sets of data, but companions that I've trained with from the Egg up and gone on special journeys with going into battle against foes who dare try to shake us and our bond for each other...

Anyway, the power of "love" can be strong! And without it, not only can many things in life not be accomplished, you will never be able to witness the coolness that is Crobat, Raichu, Umbreon, Lucario, etc.. And most certainly, you would never be able to see THIS ;):

(Not to be confused with Ho-Oh. If you've seen Digimon Adventure 01, recall Biyomon, Sora, and hopefully you'll see where I'm getting at about what the power of Love can truly accomplish... [even though the above creature never actually appeared onscreen, sadly...])

EDIT: Here's an excerpt I got from TVTropes Pokemon Nightmare Fuel page. A tearjerker, indeed, when you switch how you view Pokemon:

Here's some paranoia fuel, nightmare fuel, and a tear jerker all in one for you guys (though it's more to the Pokemon than the player): So you're a cute little Cyndaquil who's just started on an amazing journey with your kind and caring master. The two of you catch another Pokemon together who joins your party. This new Pokemon grows and becomes stronger with you, the two of you becoming a pair of inseparable friends. Then, one day, your beloved master takes you into a Pokemon Center and you watch as s/he deposits your best friend in the computer, only to be replaced by another mon. Days turn to weeks and weeks turn to months. Time goes by and you start to realize you may never see your precious friend again. To make matters worse, the same thing is happening to your other team mates. Some return, others you never see again. And then it hits you; You could very well be next.

 

[Clark]

... Why are some people here actually using real-life examples of people/animals being treated poorly in their arguments? A video game monster is not a living breathing pet. A video game monster is not a real thinking person. Just because someone IV breeds and EV trains fictional monsters in a handheld game does not mean they would neglect a pet dog or treat another human poorly. Assuming that is almost as ridiculous as assuming someone who plays shooting games is bound to go out and actually shoot people.

I myself am not a competitive battler, but I do a bit of EV training and nature-breeding here and there. Why? Because I like the deeper strategy of the game. I like being able to raise a Pokemon to its fullest potential and use it effectively in battles against other people. It's fun for me, and that's what video games are for. Fun. And yes, while I do have PC boxes full of Pokemon I'll never use, I also have countless Pokemon I've spent hours of time training and battling with. I tend to grow attached to any Pokemon I use for a while, and as such I do "love" them. Again, because it's fun for me. I enjoy playing the game a lot more when I can imagine the Pokemon I'm using as individuals. Especially the ones I EV train and breed for, since I worked hard for them and wasted away hours of my life to raise them.

But at the end of the day it's a bloody video game. It doesn't matter how amusing the conversation I had with my Tyranitar was, or how much I cared about my Mismagius, or even how well they performed in battle with the EVs and movesets I gave them. The point is to have fun playing the game the way you want to. And, in fact, there are lots of people who have fun mindlessly breeding and training for competitive battles. That's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. Main point being: don't get so worked up over how other people play their video games. Just because you have fun treating your Pokemon as individuals doesn't mean everyone else has to.

 

[Morgnarok]

Well,i am not a nerd or a psycho but when i play my pokemon games i would like to think of me in the game being the player and going on my adventure as ash would in the anime.do you ever see him doing or talking about Ev Training or treating his pokemon like a tool he uses to get what he wants.

No you do not,Him and his pokemon are one and work as a team to try to become the very best they can be.

I personally do not Ev train my pokemon,I treat them with love and care and only wish for the best for them and not turn them into worthless pieces of data.

 

[I Laugh at your Misfortune!]

Well, I wouldn't say it's comparable to real-life animals/humans as we do have to accept that Pokémon are data. They are. No question. Anything real is more valuable than them.

But I do think that many of the more competetive trainers are missing the point. As the OP says, the Pokémon games practically force down your throat the message of "Love your Pokémon. Don't discriminate based on weak and strong. Etc."Competetive battling rarely does this, as Pokémon choices are not based on "Ooh I like that Pokémon" but on "Ooh that Pokémon has a wide movepool".

Shoddy, I agree is especially bad as, having tried it, I found it rather unsatisfying. The way you can just choose to have six shiny Arceus and go "Yay I'm awesome 1337". Yes, most people won't do that, but the possibility seems to cheapen it. You haven't captured, raised and cared for these Pokémon. They don't even seem real. It's like playing a simulation of the games - already, themselves, a simulation.

Anyway, yeah, that's it. In the end, it's each to his own, I guess. You may gain more enjoyment from the calculations and EV training, but I've always find it more fun to, y'know, play the game the way it's meant to be played.

 

[Zaroas]

Guys, I think you're missing the point. It's a game. Sure, you can go ahead and care for your virtual pet, but if I want to use the ones with good movepools and good stats, let me do that. Don't hold it against me. I do know that you should care for your Pokemon, but don't hold it against other players when they do all those calculations and such.

Pokemon games don't cram the fact "Love your Pokemon," down your throat, except for HG/SS maybe. I don't remember much in Blue/Red, except maybe someone saying to Giovanni "You can't use Pokemon as tools" or something, can't remember.. They said something like once in Ruby/Sapphire. I don't even really remember anything in Diamond/Pearl, except maybe Cyrus ranting on about spirit and love being destroyed in his new world.

It's a game, and the point of that game which is Pokemon is to battle. If you want to love your Pokemon, fine, but don't love them to a point where you have to criticize people for it. If you want to use your favorite Pokemon, go ahead. But if you actually want to battle, and win, go for good Pokemon.

And for the people that keep connecting to the TV show, it's a show, and the main messages of those shows is to love your Pokemon. But you can't keep connecting the show to the games because the game's purpose is to battle, not give love.

I'm not trying to take sides, but guys, this is getting ridiculous.

 

[RaveSage]

I posted about this before on a different thread actually and a lot of what I said there pretty much applies in this thread too. If you want to see those, just click the arrows to each post.

Reference 1

Reference 2

To address the OP's statements directly though, I completely understand someone feeling as though competitive play is turning Pokemon into some kind of Robot Battle Arena or something and that mons should be treated nicely regardless of if it has perfect EVs, IVs, tier levels, w/e. But if you think (and it's somewhat assumed in your title) that people should NOT use competitive aspects of the game, then you'd be no better than someone who says everyone should play competitively (and as stated in my other posts, I have yet to see such a person). Don't go assuming that someone who enjoys competitive play doesn't love pokemon because it's pretty hard to involve yourself in a game that you dislike. I love certain pokemon for their competitive aspects, others simply because I think their cool or interesting outside of competition, and some for both even. Zaroas covered most of the other things I could say so I'll leave it at that.

Also, to the users bashing Shoddy Battle because you don't catch/raise/earn your mons or whatever. It's sole purpose is to simulate one thing; battles. Naturally if you want such a system you have to substitute the catching and training with a fast and easy way to get your team together as even if you wanted to build some casual team it would take at least 5 minutes or so to get the mons you wanted in-game.

 

[MushroomZOMBIE]

I understand how you feel, dude. Like tiers? Screw that, I'll use all the "UU", "OU", etc. Pokemon I want in my team. I will give the "movesets" that I like. I will not spend hours breeding to get a "spread" of 31 in all stats.

But my real problem actually stems from the fact that these competitive battlers are up in their high horse and mocks everyone who doesn't do what they do -- elitism is one of the worst personality traits a human can have. I have experienced this forehand as I've been on Shoddy Battle for a while... trust me, Smogonites are one of the rudest people I've ever met in my life.

 

[Morgnarok]

I understand how you feel, dude. Like tiers? Screw that, I'll use all the "UU", "OU", etc. Pokemon I want in my team. I will give the "movesets" that I like. I will not spend hours breeding to get a "spread" of 31 in all stats.

But my real problem actually stems from the fact that these competitive battlers are up in their high horse and mocks everyone who doesn't do what they do -- elitism is one of the worst personality traits a human can have. I have experienced this forehand as I've been on Shoddy Battle for a while... trust me, Smogonites are one of the rudest people I've ever met in my life.

On some part your right and on one part your wrong.I have a few friends who ev train,Breed and all that hours each day just to get the best pokmon they want and throw the ones that are not perfect away.They go off of calc and not love and fun,But you are wrong on the part were all smogonites are the rudest people you have meet because it depends on the person more so.

 

[Amore]

I agree with the above poster, for example, all smogonites I've met seem to just spam saying "UR MOM LIKE ME LAST NIGHT" and stuff like that, I still battle.

I do think, if you want to use pokemon that aren't "battle machines", play pokemon ranger or mystery dungeon. In the former, you treat pokemon as helpers, in the latter, you are a pokemon.

 

[Ninja Caterpie]

Think about it this way. Training Pokemon by giving them the right EVs and giving them the right moves brings them to the best of their ability. They become the strongest they can be through the dedicated training they go through when they're EV trained. That's like, say, someone with the potential to be an elite athlete. If they sort of muck around and train a little, they might beat all their friends to the corner shop in a race, but they'll never get anywhere. Be trained properly, however, and they could become Olympic champions.

That said, neither side is right. You can squander all you want about how "wrong" it is to train Pokemon perfectly, but in the end, we have every right to train their Pokemon the way we want to. We too can argue that Pokemon are just data, but, in the same way, you have your right to train them specially and treat them as living, breathing creatures.

You should also refrain from making EV trainers, perfection breeders and all those people sound like the devil. It's really not very nice. D: