6th Gen Lysandre... [SPOILERS]

[Venice]

Mmm.. I must've missed this part in the game :/

 

[wertcraft]

I'm not sure if we should consider Lysandre as being evil, because just like Cyrus' point of view about emotion being destructive, his motivation on wiping out every Pokémon in the world does bring a point. From what we've seen from the 3000 year war, previous evil teams, and how the Pokémon were used Movie 8 and Movie 12, people have been fighting over the control of Pokémon. It is human nature that war is brought upon by greed, and the once the human race becomes overpopulated, our main sources become scarce, making wars more devastating than they were before. Hypothetically speaking, the only to end all wars is either destroy all humans or destroy the main source that brought them to greed in the first place, which were Pokémon. The plot is basically where Lysandre is secretly the good guy all along whereas you, the main hero, are the true villain for crushing his goal to save the world. Which brings me to this question: Do you agree with his goal? How does this reflect to the real world?

i disagree with that goal, as people and Pokemon work alongside each other as friends and partners, as it is firmly stapled in the introduction to every single main series Pokemon game. and constantly brought up in many if not all aspects and sides of thee franchise, wether it be the games, anime, or trading cards.

Hey, koff~

Team Rocket killed Pokemon guys. Just cause they could. Also, I don't believe that they died. This 'ultimate weapon' did as much damage as a small crate of C-4. It sunk their base, sure, but the main character (you and your friends) didn't get caught in the blast or die. That leads me to believe that they're still alive somewhere. Also, Xerosic is still alive, koffi~

keep in mind that lysandre didn't run, unlike you, the hero

You're forgetting that Generation II was a direct sequel to Generation I, dude.



Technically, common wisdom says that the Hoenn and Kanto games actually occur at about the same point in the timeline, right?

i meant of the same generation

 

[Outlier]

The reaction to his death was similar to the reaction Kenny gets when he dies on South Park. I never took team Flare seriously, they were too goofy. Nothing stood out about Lysandre except his hair and the way he dressed.

 

[wertcraft]

The reaction to his death was similar to the reaction Kenny gets when he dies on South Park. I never took team Flare seriously, they were too goofy. Nothing stood out about Lysandre except his hair and the way he dressed.

but… kenny doesn't die anymore...

 

[Outlier]

but… kenny doesn't die anymore...

My point was I didn't really care lol

 

[wertcraft]

Well they may have had other methods to capture them. Maybe using apricorn balls, as they were used long before the industrial version of the Pokeball according a woman in Azalea town. Or using less powerful versions of the red chain.

still would have counted as a capture, as apricorn balls do count a pokeballs

Mmm.. I must've missed this part in the game :/

how did you miss it, it as the cliamx

 

[Outlier]

It just dawned on me that unless pokeballs act as some sort of bomb shelter then all of Team Flare's pokemon that you battled before defeating Lysandre died in the explosion as well.

 

[Cameo]

If anyone haven't pointed out this yet but it hasn't been confirmed anywhere that Lysandre would have died in the explosion. Even in the Bulbapedia they mention that Lysandre and the HQ of Team Flare were buried but nothing suggests that Lysandre would be gone forever. It's always a possibility but if we compare to other Generations I don't recall a single character dying and as there will most likely be a third game to this Generation it would be silly to kill Lysandre off like this. I bet my left hand that he is still alive and makes a cameo at some point. I myself am rather ridiculed by the fact that Malva is part of Team Flare and clearly stronger than Lysandre but still he reigned over her. :P

 

[wertcraft]

If anyone haven't pointed out this yet but it hasn't been confirmed anywhere that Lysandre would have died in the explosion. Even in the Bulbapedia they mention that Lysandre and the HQ of Team Flare were buried but nothing suggests that Lysandre would be gone forever. It's always a possibility but if we compare to other Generations I don't recall a single character dying and as there will most likely be a third game to this Generation it would be silly to kill Lysandre off like this. I bet my left hand that he is still alive and makes a cameo at some point. I myself am rather ridiculed by the fact that Malva is part of Team Flare and clearly stronger than Lysandre but still he reigned over her. :P

black and white 2 were the only ones on a different timeline, the other remakes are the same exact protagonist.

 

[bobandbill]

If anyone haven't pointed out this yet but it hasn't been confirmed anywhere that Lysandre would have died in the explosion. Even in the Bulbapedia they mention that Lysandre and the HQ of Team Flare were buried but nothing suggests that Lysandre would be gone forever. It's always a possibility but if we compare to other Generations I don't recall a single character dying and as there will most likely be a third game to this Generation it would be silly to kill Lysandre off like this. I bet my left hand that he is still alive and makes a cameo at some point. I myself am rather ridiculed by the fact that Malva is part of Team Flare and clearly stronger than Lysandre but still he reigned over her. :P

As said above, the next version (assuming we get one of course ;p) isn't always a sequel.

Malva may have 'higher levels' (but note that this is more a gameplay detail - there's enough hints in various canons to suggest the 1st gym leader you encounter isn't necessarily the weakest for instance), but Lysandre arguably had larger sway in the world, what with his financial power, work in stuff like the Holo Caster, and so forth.

 

[Aeroblast]

I highly doubt all the Flare members stayed while the "heroes" were running out the door. Same can't be said for Lysander, though there's no telling if he's alive or dead at this point.

I thought the plot overall didn't really build well, and Lysander's motive seems unfounded. Maybe if there was more background story that went with Lysander's motive, the story could've been a bit better.

 

[wertcraft]

I highly doubt all the Flare members stayed while the "heroes" were running out the door. Same can't be said for Lysander, though there's no telling if he's alive or dead at this point.

I thought the plot overall didn't really build well, and Lysander's motive seems unfounded. Maybe if there was more background story that went with Lysander's motive, the story could've been a bit better.

well lysandre just stayed there standing still

 

[Pinkie-Dawn]

Very late reply. @_@

i disagree with that goal, as people and Pokemon work alongside each other as friends and partners, as it is firmly stapled in the introduction to every single main series Pokemon game. and constantly brought up in many if not all aspects and sides of thee franchise, wether it be the games, anime, or trading cards.

Have you paid attention to his dialogue? Pokémon has only made people become greedy, which led to the rise of Giovanni's business, as shown in the Origin, and Ghetsis' ambition to be the only human to use Pokémon. As the population of humans and Pokémon increase, so does the likeliness of war. Lysandre was simply doing the world a favor by destroying the very source of greed, which are Pokémon, in order to keep the world beautiful, even if it means losing the beautiful creatures he truly loves, thus making him a true hero. But no, instead the game tries to shove the fact that your NPC friends' ideals are superior and everyone else's is bad, forcing to foul Lysandre's plan, thus making you the real villain.

 

[wertcraft]

Very late reply. @_@


Have you paid attention to his dialogue? Pokémon has only made people become greedy, which led to the rise of Giovanni's business, as shown in the Origin, and Ghetsis' ambition to be the only human to use Pokémon. As the population of humans and Pokémon increase, so does the likeliness of war. Lysandre was simply doing the world a favor by destroying the very source of greed, which are Pokémon, in order to keep the world beautiful, even if it means losing the beautiful creatures he truly loves, thus making him a true hero. But no, instead the game tries to shove the fact that your NPC friends' ideals are superior and everyone else's is bad, forcing to foul Lysandre's plan, thus making you the real villain.

yes he would end war, but only because everything would be dead. eventually, through repopulation, there would be war again, so the only thing lysandre would be doing is mass genocide

 

[wertcraft]

They do mention several times that you needed to pay a $5.000.000 fee in order to join Team Flare, which I guess explains why most of their members ended up being rich jerks who only care about their appearances.
I really don't get Lysandre's "master plan". I know previous Pokemon villains had pretty insane and idiotic plans as well, but they at least made sense within the villain's own messed-up mind. Team Aqua and Magma, when it comes down to it, were just common hooligans who promoted themselves to a global threat. Yes, both their plans were very stupid and made no scientific sense, but what does one expect from a bunch of hippies who spray graffiti about the importance of sea life/ land life. Cyrus was a big sociopath with an implied abusive upbringing, so from his point of view he is actually doing the world a favour by getting rid of "the evil that is emotion".
Lysandre, on the other hand, hates the whole world for no given reason and plans to kill everyone but a select few, hoping that the survivors won't just slaughter each other like animals over the few resources left on the planet post-apocalypse. Unlike Cyrus, he doesn't have a specific plan on how to reshape the world after he destroys it (insane as such a plan would be) and unlike Archie and Maxie, he is actually implied to have some sort of academic education, which doesn't excuse how he would come up with such a flawed, fail-prone plan that totally ignores elementary rules of how society and human beings in general work.

Does anybody understand his plan?

 

[Cerberus87]

When was it confirmed Lysandre died? While it's heavily implied he killed himself, he could still be alive under all that rubble.

 

[Aeroblast]

well lysandre just stayed there standing still

That's why I said same can't be said for him...

 

[Cerberus87]

Lysandre's motives remind me of that recent movie, Elysium. Resources are limited, so let's get rid of all the ugly people in the world and build a new utopia. It's a classic theme, and it's understandable why Lysandre does that, if you read his notes in the labs. Interestingly enough, there are quite a lot of people like that in the world. People who view the poor as beggars who hold back the progress of the gifted ones, people who want to get rid of the filth (criminals, addicts, mental patients)... And these people, unlike Lysandre, sometimes aren't recognized as villains by the society. I bet many people would like for a Lysandre to exist so that he builds a weapon that magically wipes out all the undesirable people from the world.

 

[KostK2Boss]

Very late reply. @_@


Have you paid attention to his dialogue? Pokémon has only made people become greedy, which led to the rise of Giovanni's business, as shown in the Origin, and Ghetsis' ambition to be the only human to use Pokémon. As the population of humans and Pokémon increase, so does the likeliness of war. Lysandre was simply doing the world a favor by destroying the very source of greed, which are Pokémon, in order to keep the world beautiful, even if it means losing the beautiful creatures he truly loves, thus making him a true hero. But no, instead the game tries to shove the fact that your NPC friends' ideals are superior and everyone else's is bad, forcing to foul Lysandre's plan, thus making you the real villain.

What you're describing here is what the writers TRIED to do with Lysandre's character: To make him a tragic, shakespearean villain who's fed up with the corruption of the world and is willing to turn himself into a monster, if it means future generations will live in a better, more peaceful world.
The problem that happens with this story is the same that happens with a lot of similar stories: Where's the corruption? Where are these despicable, greedy, Pokemon-abusing humans that he speaks of? All I see in Kalos are happy-go-lucky people running around with their cheerful Pokemon in their beautyful, colorful towns generally having a good time. Evil teams like Team Rocket and Team Plasma who use Pokemon for evil are the exception and not the rule in the Pokemon World.
If you're wondering what Lysandre would be like in the hands of a good writer, look no further than Amon from the Legend of Korra. His motives actually make sense within the established universe (i.e. we actually see examples of Benders abusing non-Benders), his followers are actually intimidating and he actually has a complex, multi-part plan that almost worked in the end, intead of just saying "hey, let's just kill everyone we don't like and then the world will be a better place... somehow."

 

[Cerberus87]

The problem that happens with this story is the same that happens with a lot of similar stories: Where's the corruption? Where are these despicable, greedy, Pokemon-abusing humans that he speaks of?

In the war that happened 3,000 years ago which led to AZ unleashing the weapon into the world. I thought the story was pretty clear about that...?

You do have a point, though. None of the NPCs are evil bastards. Team Flare is an irony, as was Team Plasma, because Lysandre hated the greedy people who would abuse Pokémon for war yet his team consists of mostly greedy people who only care about riches and nothing else.