Middle East conflicts?

[Anthraxinsoup]

The situation in Libya both saddens and excites me. It's sad people are dying, but my hope is that the sacrifices those people made will lead to reform in Libya.


The irony is that Beale was against the Saudi buyout of UBS until he met with Jensen, and then when he did he no longer said things like this. Network was a pretty good movie, more people should see it.

I was just saying, I am against them owning things like that anymore, but I am saying they are more peace friendly.

 

[twocows]

I was just saying, I am against them owning things like that anymore, but I am saying they are more peace friendly.

Israel's done a lot of horrible and nasty things to the Arab world, and they get away with it because they're close allies with the US. They really aren't under any pressure to surrender their nuclear weapons. It's kind of sad, really.

 

[Anthraxinsoup]

Israel's done a lot of horrible and nasty things to the Arab world, and they get away with it because they're close allies with the US. They really aren't under any pressure to surrender their nuclear weapons. It's kind of sad, really.

Israel has twice attacked America two, and admitted it, but it's never been mainstream news as no one wants to attack an ally. They blew up a ship of ours, and building of ours. Just recently the UN was going to punish them but Obama told his people to veto it.

 

[G-Man]

The whole Middle east and Northern Africa seems to be ablaze with Protests...even in Iraq...I wonder if this might affect the US war there...

Well, for the most part, Combat operations in Iraq are done, so unless the protests get out of hand like elsewhere, there shouldn't be a problem for the NATO forces there.

As for Libya, I can see them sending us back to "the Shores of Tripoli" for round Dos. If what I hear is also correct, they are sending one of the MEUs out to stand-by in case they have to step in. We just have to wait and see how this goes.

 

[Livewire]

I had heard that the US is moving an Aircraft Carrier to the Libyan Coast in the event that the UN votes to enact the No-Fly zone, which would give the authority to shoot down Gaddhafi's airships that are attacking civilians.

 

[G-Man]

A No-Fly zone is not as easy as simple as just setting up a Navy ship nearby and shoot planes. It would no doubt require Full-scale ground combat operations to deny those assets.

The amphibious assault ship Kearsarge is nearby, and they had the 26th MEU, out of Camp Lejeune, N.C., on board, but they deployed much of its ground combat element- Battalion Landing Team 3rd Battalion, 8th Marines-to Afghanistan in January. They still have plenty of able-bodied Marines, but the scope of what they can do might be limited.

 

[.Fenris]

[QUOTE=G-Man;6494478]A No-Fly zone is not as easy as simple as just setting up a Navy ship nearby and shoot planes. It would no doubt require Full-scale ground combat operations to deny those assets.

The amphibious assault ship Kearsarge is nearby, and they had the 26th MEU, out of Camp Lejeune, N.C., on board, but they deployed much of its ground combat element- Battalion Landing Team 3rd Battalion, 8th Marines-to Afghanistan in January. They still have plenty of able-bodied Marines, but the scope of what they can do might be limited.[/QUOTE]

Use the Navy's birds to compensate for it, drop a bunch of presents on their oil tanks and for CAS.

 

[Livewire]

drop a bunch of presents on their oil tanks

Because gas isn't high enough as is? That's completely asinine. Bombing campaigns would only do more harm than good at this point. But, as bad as things are now, the UN needs to use force and crush Gaddhafi.

 

[aruchan]

A no-fly zone imposed on Libya would be great, as it would allow rebels to advance into Tripoli without fear of air bombardment. The international community should definitely work to help the rebels instead of sit back idly.

 

[Anthraxinsoup]

A no-fly zone imposed on Libya would be great, as it would allow rebels to advance into Tripoli without fear of air bombardment. The international community should definitely work to help the rebels instead of sit back idly.

Why are you supporting Rebels who against a non-genocidal government.

 

[twocows]

Why are you supporting Rebels who against a non-genocidal government.

There are more reasons to kick out a government than genocide. Rampant corruption and attacking the people they are there to serve are two good reasons.

 

[Anthraxinsoup]

There are more reasons to kick out a government than genocide. Rampant corruption and attacking the people they are there to serve are two good reasons.

The reason they are doing it cause the Egypt did it. These are just random movements to just riot and cause ****. Like the 92' LA riots, and don't tell me that was cause of "racism", it was just people running around, killing, and stealing.

 

[Ivysaur]

Massive murders of peaceful civilians trying to have a demonstration against the government is enough of a reason to try and overthrow the culprit. If Obama ordered the assassination of any citizen protesting against him, I hope you wouldn't stand against his immediate removal just because "he hasn't commited genocide".

Plus it's not like Gaddafi was a lover of human rights, democracy, peace, prosperity for his people, wasn't him? He was considered a freaking terrorist until the early 2000's when he offered cheap oil to us defenders of freedom western countries.

 

[G-Man]

I have a better idea!

Lets just sit this one out! In my opinion, it's their problem. US forces are already stretched thin as it is, and I really doubt we could afford to divert a unit that would be headed to Afghanistan and send them to Libya, which suddently the international community feels we should do even though we get criticized all the time. I personally don't want to go there.

 

[.Fenris]

Because gas isn't high enough as is? That's completely asinine. Bombing campaigns would only do more harm than good at this point. But, as bad as things are now, the UN needs to use force and crush Gaddhafi.

Don't they use the same reserves for their forces? Cut out their revenue and fuel.

 

[twocows]

The reason they are doing it cause the Egypt did it. These are just random movements to just riot and cause ****. Like the 92' LA riots, and don't tell me that was cause of "racism", it was just people running around, killing, and stealing.

No, Egypt prompted it. The reason they are doing it is because of corruption, and the Libyan government's response proves the point. A government that truly existed to serve the people would never massacre its own population.

 

[Anthraxinsoup]

No, Egypt prompted it. The reason they are doing it is because of corruption, and the Libyan government's response proves the point. A government that truly existed to serve the people would never massacre its own population.

Boohoo, In Poland we had many problems with the communist government. You don't even hear anyone talking about the horrid things they did to our people and our land in the name of their riches and horrible system.

 

[Netto Azure]

George F. Will, a person I usually disagree with in domestic policy has posted some really poignant questions for those gung-ho to save the Libyan people.

• The world would be better without Gaddafi. But is that a vital U.S. national interest? If it is, when did it become so? A month ago, no one thought it was.
• How much of Gaddafi's violence is coming from the air? Even if his aircraft are swept from his skies, would that be decisive?
• What lesson should be learned from the fact that Europe's worst atrocity since the Second World War - the massacre by Serbs of Bosnian Muslims at Srebrenica - occurred beneath a no-fly zone?
• Sen. John Kerry says: "The last thing we want to think about is any kind of military intervention. And I don't consider the fly zone stepping over that line." But how is imposing a no-fly zone - the use of military force to further military and political objectives - not military intervention?
• U.S. forces might ground Gaddafi's fixed-wing aircraft by destroying runways at his 13 air bases, but to keep helicopter gunships grounded would require continuing air patrols, which would require the destruction of Libya's radar and anti-aircraft installations. If collateral damage from such destruction included civilian deaths - remember those nine Afghan boys recently killed by mistake when they were gathering firewood - are we prepared for the televised pictures?
• The Economist reports Gaddafi has "a huge arsenal of Russian surface-to-air missiles" and that some experts think Libya has SAMs that could threaten U.S. or allies' aircraft. If a pilot is downed and captured, are we ready for the hostage drama?
• If we decide to give war supplies to the anti-Gaddafi fighters, how do we get them there?
• Presumably we would coordinate aid with the leaders of the anti-Gaddafi forces. Who are they?
• Libya is a tribal society. What concerning our Iraq and Afghanistan experiences justifies confidence that we understand Libyan dynamics?
• Because of what seems to have been the controlling goal of avoiding U.S. and NATO casualties, the humanitarian intervention - 79 days of bombing - against Serbia in Kosovo was conducted from 15,000 feet. This marked the intervention as a project worth killing for but not worth dying for. Would intervention in Libya be similar? Are such interventions morally dubious?
• Could intervention avoid "mission creep"? If grounding Gaddafi's aircraft is a humanitarian imperative, why isn't protecting his enemies from ground attacks?
• In Tunisia and then in Egypt, regimes were toppled by protests. Libya is convulsed not by protests but by war. Not a war of aggression, not a war with armies violating national borders and thereby implicating the basic tenets of agreed-upon elements of international law, but a civil war. How often has intervention by nation A in nation B's civil war enlarged the welfare of nation A?
• Before we intervene in Libya, do we ask the United Nations for permission? If it is refused, do we proceed anyway? If so, why ask? If we are refused permission and recede from intervention, have we not made U.S. foreign policy hostage to a hostile institution?
• Secretary of State Hilary Clinton fears Libya becoming a failed state - "a giant Somalia." Speaking of which, have we not seen a cautionary movie - "Black Hawk Down" - about how humanitarian military interventions can take nasty turns?
• The Egyptian crowds watched and learned from the Tunisian crowds. But the Libyan government watched and learned from the fate of the Tunisian and Egyptian governments. It has decided to fight. Would not U.S. intervention in Libya encourage other restive peoples to expect U.S. military assistance?
• Would it be wise for U.S. military force to be engaged simultaneously in three Muslim nations?

Our military is stretched as it is, we're cutting off near-centuries old collective bargaining rights to people. I doubt it is a good idea to become entangled in another freedom war.

 

[Livewire]

You don't even hear anyone talking about the horrid things they did to our people and our land in the name of their riches and horrible system.

On what Planet do you spend most of your time? Plenty is heard of the plight of the Polish people in the history books, whether from Prussia, Russia, or Nazi Germany.

George F. Will, a person I usually disagree with in domestic policy has posted some really poignant questions for those gung-ho to save the Libyan people.



Our military is stretched as it is, we're cutting off near-centuries old collective bargaining rights to people. I doubt it is a good idea to become entangled in another freedom war.

It would be a mistake to become entangled in Libya, I believe. Now, a joint NATO coalition might be the answer, but one with less US involvement.

 

[Ivysaur]

The ones with vital interest on Lybia are us, the EU. I'm ashamed to see that we can't act alone yet again and we are depending on the US to give the greenlight >_>

Either way, the best solution is creating a no-fly zone around the country, as the Arab League, the Lybian rebel government and several other countries have asked for. We should get a mostly European NATO coalition to do so ASAP.