My grandfather says old-school racist things, but he doesn't think anything of it. He doesn't even know they are racist. It's mostly just a product of how he grew up... I don't think he actually holds discriminatory views.
Yeah, my grandmother is a bit of an "old school" racist. I can say though, that she's gotten better-ish.
My dad had me pretty late, so I'm not surprised if he is around the same age as your guys' grandparents (he's often closer to my friends' grandparents age than their parents), so it makes sense his thoughts are more in line with those of that generation.
Your grandma sounds a lot like my dad in a lot of ways - also very kind and generous, if a bit stubborn and set in his ways. He also uses the "young and ignorant" argument on me all the time, and it's pretty frustrating because he'll deflect everything with "you have no experience in life, what do you know".
If you're going to defend your nation at all costs and that nothing negative should ever be said about it ever, then you better feel that way about every nation. (Which is a whole other argument/problematic situation but I hope you can see the specific hypocritical point I'm trying to get at)
I'll start with the Huawei thing since you mentioned that and as I posted a response in a thread here on this forum concerning, what I feel is, the general Chinese reaction, and how I feel that reaction is problematic.
Yeah, his reactions to a lot of my/other peoples' criticisms are just really strange to me. Bit of a tangent/rant here but my dad can't seem to separate my criticisms of the Chinese government from just "Chinese" - if I disagree with what the Chinese government does he takes that as a very personal attack and an attack on my own heritage, which is not true at all. I have never been ashamed or unhappy to be Chinese, and it kinda hurts when he accuses me of being a "banana" and "White on the inside", or dismisses what I say as just "well I guess you love White people" (even if I just broadly defend something happening in Canada or the States and that has no direct relation to "being White" - I'm not particularly patriotic at all but having never lived in China, I consider Canada my home and my country, it is not "White man's country" to me) even though I speak/read/write my language as well as someone who does not need to use this language on a regular basis can, I very much identify as Chinese and appreciate my culture, I just don't agree with a lot of things the Chinese government does. And the fun thing is he scrutinizes everything Trudeau and Trump does on a whole other level, which I think is a good thing! I just wish these standards applied to Xi Jinping but for some reason, they fucking don't!
I'm like I literally... just want you to look at people as people instead of putting them in these boxes and judging them based on the boxes, not who they are. Get to know people. That's all I want. I don't think all White people are great, just as I don't think all Chinese people are great. Or bad. 'Cause apparently my criticisms of some things the Chinese government does means I hate my own people and I'm antagonizing them.
Our latest discussion has made me lose hope 100% that I can ever have a civil discussion with him about stuff like this where we will both walk away happy or having learned something.
A few nights ago, he was trying to justify his discrimination with the Opium Wars and how the evil white men gave us all these drugs like 200 years ago, right? So my brother was like "well, if you're going to reference history from the 19th century, here is a more modern issue that's comparable - the fentanyl problem in China and how they are the main exporters of this deadly drug to the US and Canada". He said he hadn't heard of this problem and asked us for sources, which we provided - even Xi Jinping has acknowledged this issue in his country at like a cabinet level, right? It's undeniable large quantities of fentanyl are coming from China.
He says we can't prove the Chinese are doing this.
He refuses to believe Chinese people are doing this. He references the Canadian drug dealer detained in China right now, and says how do we know it's not people like him who are just going to China to make these drugs and send them back here. I was at a complete loss for words - he's right though, I have no proof that directly says people who are ethnically Chinese are making these drugs, I only know it's coming from China, so that doesn't mean anything to him. And maybe he's right, maybe it's not ethnically Chinese people doing this, but the point is the Chinese government is not doing enough to stop this. You can sell these drugs online in China, for fuck's sake.
So that was fun. Good talk.
Yue Han said:
A significant reason for why this kind of mind-frame exists is, in my opinion, because of the extremely over patriotic/nationalistic culture of China, how controlled the media is, how propaganda is shoved down Chinese people's throats constantly, the ever growing cult-leader-worshipping-esque behaviour towards "Xi Dada".
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I personally feel a big reason for this kind of mind-frame existing is the constant nationalistic propaganda. Chinese people are taught they are the best people in the world and they believe it. And why wouldn't they? The media is highly monitored so it's hard to find negative views about China, and it all sounds very nice being told how amazing your country is all the time.
Even here in Canada, my dad exclusively listens to the Chinese radio and watches Chinese news - this is all produced right here in Vancouver but I feel like it's kinda biased? Not as objective as it could be? Which isn't really news (ha), a lot of media and news are biased in some way or another, but I can't help but notice the cherry-picking of the news they do talk about. Like lately, every fucking morning any updates on the Huawei situation are top priority and breaking news (all presented in favour of Huawei, of course - they are the pinnacle of innocence) before anything else, like yeah people are dying or whatever but MENG WANZHOU IS SUING THE MOUNTIES LETS TALK ABOUT THAT FOR 10 MINUTES
I absolutely fucking hate the word 外国人 (foreigner) and how it's used/defined in the minds of almost everyone here. Foreigner to Chinese people doesn't mean 'person who is not in his or her own country'. In almost everyone's mind here it literally means not Chinese. Even the most kindhearted and open minded Chinese people I've met all use this word in a way that means 'non-Chinese' person. I realise China is nowhere near as multicultural/multi-ethnic as the UK and therefore the word '外国人' doesn't have near as many negative connotations in Chinese as 'foreigner' does in English, but at the same time it shows there is this divide of there being only 2 things in this world: Chinese and... foreign.
Absolutely. I'll be honest, I grew up speaking Chinese so I don't really take apart words character by character as much as someone who learns the language later in life does, so yeah, even I just use this as a word broadly to refer to someone not Chinese. It's not considered a slur, it's polite, even, compared to other words we use to talk about "foreigners", haha. I generally don't use it very often because if I need to reference race in any way I would just 西人 or 黑人 etc, there are fewer instances where I just need to say "this person is not Chinese". But yeah, I know what you're getting at - China's inherently quite homogeneic and there is a huge sense of "us vs. others" even if it's just on a very superficial level, like "you look like us" or "you don't look like us".
...Anyway on racism. Because of all this do I think this kind of attitude is racist? Absolutely. But do I feel it is intentional? Most of the time, absolutely not. It's racism in the same way I, and a lot of other white people say our grandparents are 'racist'. It's mostly down to a lack of proper education on these topics (definitely not trying to say anyone is stupid), then when people are set in their ways/views getting defensive of the way they've viewed the world for so long is understandable.
It is understandable, and even though it gets heated I absolutely do try my best to take a step back and look at what makes him the way he is, even though it really frustrates and saddens me that he is not willing to do the same for me. I also justify and attribute it to, yes, largely a lack of education, which I do not blame him for at all. He did not have a good childhood and left school at 15 to work so he can provide for his mom, and he has never stopped working. He worked his ass off to get here so my brothers and I can live this cushy life so I also try not to be too hard on him if my emotions allow it, I can't imagine what it's like to use all your time, sweat and tears to raise these kids that won't do what you want them to and will argue with you about everything and call you a racist, haha. From that perspective I do feel bad we can't see eye to eye on so many issues.
Sorry that I kind of took over your thread but I kind of thought since I'm kind of in a contrasting situation to you/your father it might be somewhat helpful to you?
On your father from what you've said I'd say he's just stuck in his ways unfortunately. I'm not going to say I get it, but, to a degree, I do understand it and where that kind of attitude comes from. And on the other side of the coin there are definitely people from western countries that come over here, complain about everything, never socialise with anyone local and never try to understand why things are the way they are and that everyone is just 'out to get them' for no reason. Then if one Chinese person does something annoying it's 'urgh THESE people and THIS country!!!!!!!'. It's easier than you think to fall into that trap and I have had to tell myself off a few times for thinking that way at times. I'm sure in parts of this (what has turned into an essay... sorry for that) I possibly could come across as bratty.
Again hope this is somewhat helpful and not offensive to you and I'm more than willing to be challenged if you have any criticisms of my views.
Absolutely! Thank you for your response, it was very insightful, and while I kinda suck at responding to large chunks of text (especially on forums) I hope I responded to everything I wanted to adequately and I appreciate your "essay" response tbh lol. I know I didn't respond to every point but a lot of it was just "yes, agree, next" so I didn't put it down, and my thoughts are kinda all over the place anyway.
To be quite honest, I feel like you have experienced more of the "real" China than even my dad has. Like I said, he's from Hong Kong and back in the day, that was also British Hong Kong, so I don't think he has ever even lived in communist China. He came here before he turned 20 and has lived most of his life here, and that's why I find it so bizarre he's so radically "nationalistic" towards a country he has so little experience in. He visits Hong Kong frequently and of that time he might spend a little time in China, but that is not even remotely comparable to actually experiencing what it's like living there.
My family (the older generation anyway) are very anti-black. If you were to meet them in public, they would seem like nice people, but behind closed doors their anti-black sentiments do come out. I see this more on my mother's side, especially lately. My uncle and aunt welcomed a daughter a few years ago, and she is at the age where she is starting school. I have encountered more anti-black sentiments from them when it comes to their daughter than I have ever had in my entire life. During New Years, my uncle scolded his daughter when she was about to walk out on her own with: "Hey. It's dangerous out there. You might get shot by a Mexican or an African-American dude."
Yeah...he's terrible. Doesn't really help he is insanely homophobic either, but that's not a discussion for here.
My dad's side is better. (Besides my dad and his older brother). They came to the U.S. when they were fairly young, so most have grown out of it. But anyway, both sides of my family arrived in the U.S. when anti-black sentiments were extremely high in the U.S. with the overexposure of black and brown bodies in the media in regards to the War on Drugs/War on Crimes. (Thanks Nixon, Reagan, Clinton, Bush).
My family is Vietnamese, so they also have anti-Chinese sentiments as well. My grandma is afraid of China. My aunts and uncles on my mother's side are also very bitter about China as well because of the Vietnam war and the border disputes that have occurred throughout the years. My dad's side has gotten over it to some degree, but they are only comfortable with ethnic Chinese families who migrated to Vietnam.
Sadly, I don't have any advice for you. I have never approached my family about any of the issues they have. There is just a lot of emotional labor involved with that conversation, and I am not sure I want to ever get involved with that. Plus, once I come out to them, I doubt I will ever be welcomed by them.
Oh, for sure. My dad's like that too - he'll literally preface a comment with "I'm not racist but" and then go on to say shit like "black people are more violent and dangerous, it's in their blood", and "I will have to accept it if you end up marrying a White person or x East Asian person who's not Chinese, but if they are Indian, black or x darker skinned race I am leaving this country for good". He's been doing that a lot lately - threatening to move back to Hong Kong because apparently as far as he's concerned, if he doesn't have "full-blooded" Chinese grandchildren by at least one of me or my two brothers, there's "nothing left for him here" and he'd rather spend the rest of his days in Hong Kong surrounded by his people.
I totally get the racism against other Asian races thing too - my parents have stereotypes for all other Asian people, but yeah, the whole holding onto historical grudges thing kinda gets to me. My dad can be very anti-Japanese because of the Sino-Japanese wars too, and I can argue until I'm blue in the face about how stupid it is to blindly hate people today for something that happened so long ago to no avail.
There absolutely is a lot of emotional labour involved and I'm always so emotionally exhausted aftera arguments like that so yeah, smart to avoid it when you can. It's just when he provokes me and starts talking about race when he KNOWS how upset it makes me and how these conversations always end, I really don't know why he does that and it's hard to control myself and just not respond sometimes.
