Opinions on an audacious Ability

[ThePokeCorral]

I'm working on a fictional Pokemon game, and I have an idea for a Psychic type, book-reading lion (possibly with some references to Read Between The Lions 😄) called Bibleo; that evolves into a Psychic/Steel type robotic lion that can store the data of a thousand books like a portable library, called Bibleotech. 😁

I've been trying to think of a cool signature ability to give to the evolved form, that plays into the theme "data storage." I have an idea that I think is elegant, but would be very audacious from a mechanical standpoint. What if its ability were that it can know six moves instead of four?

I'm curious as to what people would think of that. Love it? Think it's pushing the envelope too much? What would your reaction be if this were in a real Pokemon game?

 

[ReKoil]

Could potentially work imo, if you restrict it so that it can't learn 6 attacking moves at the same time.
Could for example split it down the middle so it can have only 3 attacking moves at any one time, forcing the other 3 moves to be non-attacking moves.
Could also just adjust it's PP usage to compensate, or a mix of both.

 

[Devalue]

Moved this to Game Development. Deals with creating a fictional Pokemon not in the existing games.

 

[Devalue]

Considers it interesting. Cannot call it overpowered with knowing its movepool and stats. Treats it as nothing special with no good moves outside Psychic and Steel, or with strong physical moves alongside poor Attack. Becomes quite strong with a range of support moves (Spore, screens, Tailwind, Yawn, Rage Powder, Helping Hand, and so on) and the proper stats.

Asks how it interacts with Skill Swap (if at all). Does the Pokemon receive Bibleotech's extra moves? Perhaps the two highest level-up moves not already known? Could be a unique way of assisting a teammate.

 

[ThePokeCorral]

Could potentially work imo, if you restrict it so that it can't learn 6 attacking moves at the same time.
Could for example split it down the middle so it can have only 3 attacking moves at any one time, forcing the other 3 moves to be non-attacking moves.

I won't say too much at this point since I want to see more people's opinions, but I'll say that I think restricting it to 3 attacking moves is unnecessary, since after all there's nothing stopping a regular Pokemon from knowing 4 attacking moves. Restricting 2 of its moves to status moves, maybe.

I'll also say that I plan on using this Pokemon in the 7th Gym battle, and so while it doesn't need to be crazy powerful, I want the ability to actually "matter." I don't want it to just be a superficial gimmick.

Could also just adjust it's PP usage to compensate, or a mix of both.

This sounds overly complicated. While I can see where you're coming from - I imagine that your intent is to decrease the extent to which it has answers for more opposing types - I feel that if the ability would otherwise make the Pokemon "too strong," it would make more sense to compensate for this by having its stats be lower, specifically its attacking stats. So it has a very strong ability but would be weak without it, like Medicham or Araquinid.

Also, if your main point here is indeed to compensate for it having very good type coverage, I'm not sure that lowering its PP would even help; since 2 or 3 PP, certainly not more than 5, would be all it would need to take out a single opponent. So if the opposing trainer had 6 Pokemon and it knew a different coverage move for each of them, it could have max 5 PP for all of its moves and it wouldn't even make a difference.

 

[ThePokeCorral]

Considers it interesting. Cannot call it overpowered with knowing its movepool and stats. Treats it as nothing special with no good moves outside Psychic and Steel, or with strong physical moves alongside poor Attack.

Its level-up movepool would not necessarily be anything special, but I was thinking of giving it a rather good and type-diverse TM movepool. As I said I was planning on using it in the 7th Gym battle, specifically only appearing on Hard Mode (as much because it's the one I'm most willing to remove on regular difficulty as because of how strong it might be); and I'd been planning that its main significance in said Gym battle would be that it knows coverage moves for all four of Psychic/Steel's weaknesses. I was thinking of giving it Ghost, Fighting, and Water type attacks (Water covering both Fire and Ground), plus STAB attacks for both of its types, plus an as-yet-undecided status move.

Becomes quite strong with a range of support moves (Spore, screens, Tailwind, Yawn, Rage Powder, Helping Hand, and so on) and the proper stats.

I hadn't yet put much thought into what kind of craziness could be achieved by giving it multiple status moves at once. Partially because I don't think I know just how strong a lot of status moves really are in competitive.

Asks how it interacts with Skill Swap (if at all). Does the Pokemon receive Bibleotech's extra moves? Perhaps the two highest level-up moves not already known? Could be a unique way of assisting a teammate.

I'm thinking yes, and that it would specifically gain the moves in the last two slots.

Inspired by this, what if instead of having more move slots, its ability were that it passively (without needing to use Skill Swap or anything) grants its teammates access to one or more of the moves it knows? Maybe the one in the last slot, or the last two slots, or all four of them if that wouldn't be too strong. This wouldn't be relevant in the Gym battle since it's not a multi battle, but it would be an alternate way of executing the "data" flavor.

 

[StCooler]

I'm working on a fictional Pokemon game, and I have an idea for a Psychic type, book-reading lion (possibly with some references to Read Between The Lions 😄) called Bibleo; that evolves into a Psychic/Steel type robotic lion that can store the data of a thousand books like a portable library, called Bibleotech. 😁

OMG I love that name!

I've been trying to think of a cool signature ability to give to the evolved form, that plays into the theme "data storage." I have an idea that I think is elegant, but would be very audacious from a mechanical standpoint. What if its ability were that it can know six moves instead of four?

I'm curious as to what people would think of that. Love it? Think it's pushing the envelope too much? What would your reaction be if this were in a real Pokemon game?

It depends on what you want to do with that Pokémon.
My first thought was: OMG that's so broken. I won't claim I know a lot about strategical Pokémon battles (like Pokémon Showdown), but I know that many Pokémons have a "four-move syndrome", that basically says that these Pokémons would want to have more than four moves to handle all their counters; it turns out that if they had more than four moves, they would be overpowered.
Such a Pokémon wouldn't last long in OverUsed and will be banned after two days to Uber, and maybe to AnythingGoes (if you know about Smogon tiers).
BUT, if Bibleotech (<3 that name) was the main legendary Pokémon of your game, like Mewtwo / Palkia / Dialga (but not like Mew, Raikou / Entei / Suicune), then it's kinda broken but maybe consistent with the game.

Its level-up movepool would not necessarily be anything special, but I was thinking of giving it a rather good and type-diverse TM movepool.

This is a problem in terms of balance. I won't mind having six moves on, say, Wormadam or Simisage, because they are notoriously known for being weak and with a thin movepool. Now, I don't imagine a Psychic-Steel lion to be "weak".

In my opinion, you need to balance out this ability.

For example, maybe the Pokémon knows six moves, but it can only use four moves in each battle (or even three, if you realise that's still broken). You can explain it by stating that Bibleotech has a limited RAM memory stick and can load only four (or three) moves in each battle.
Or, you design a specific move, that works in pair with this ability, that basically allows you to browse the moves that this Pokémon learns by levelling up (or by TM, or not), and loads the chosen move for this battle (make the move reset after battle).

Also, from the development point of view. (I use Pokémon Essentials, I don't know about ROM hacking)

I can clearly see this ability implemented.
In its original form that you proposed, I wouldn't say it looks easy though. You would need to change a good chunk of code to make six moves usable (most of the code relies on the Pokémon having at most four moves). And if you plan to let an NPC use this Pokémon, you need to make sure that the file trainers.txt can correctly load such a Pokémon (which it currently doesn't, because you can only give four moves per Pokémon). However the compiler can be easily rewritten. Finally, in battle, the code is written so that you can only choose among four moves, and the battle UI is a pain to change.
The first variant I proposed doesn't make the code look easier, as I'm only adding a restriction on how to use the moves.
The second variant I proposed is way, way simpler, it needs only one PokeBattle_Move subclass, it would take me ten minutes to write it lol (yeah, maybe a bit more if you consider the testing/debugging, but you get the idea).

 

[Corveone]

The concept for the Pokémon looks interesting. As for the ability, first question that comes to mins is: is that actually possible?

I mean, not only that sounds like it would require insane programming skills to modify a core gameplay aspect that has remained untouched since Gen 1, but also would require modifying the game UI, for both battle and summary screen, to make room for six moves, and you'd have to do all that just for one Pokémon.

If it was doable, I believe someone would have already came up with a fan game implementing more than four moves, and not only for one Pokémon. Same would happen with an Ability that allows a Pokémon to equip two held items at once, or to inflict two status conditions on the opponent simultaneously.

If you want an Ability that somehow allows the Pokémon to use more moves, here's a few ideas:

-Upon entering battle after a fainted ally, the Pokémon automatically uses the move that defeated its ally against the opponent (doesn't cost a turn)

-The Pokémon automatically learns the last damaging move the opponent used against it (allways replaces the first move slot)

 

[ThePokeCorral]

OMG I love that name!

Thank you. :)

It depends on what you want to do with that Pokémon.

I frankly don't care how good it is in competitive. I'd want it to be descent in a playthough, and for the Ability to matter when used by a Gym Leader (specifically the seventh).

BUT, if Bibleotech (<3 that name) was the main legendary Pokémon of your game, like Mewtwo / Palkia / Dialga (but not like Mew, Raikou / Entei / Suicune), then it's kinda broken but maybe consistent with the game.

It's not legendary. The main three legendary Pokemon of the game are already filled in. This Pokemon is caught in a Psychic-associated area (and wanting to have more new Pokemon to be found in the wild in this area is one of the main reasons for its existence), and I was imagining it as a companion Pokemon to librarians, researchers, historians etc. (The seventh Gym is Psychic type and is based on a university/library.)

Plus, there is already a Psychic/Steel legendary lion - Solgaleo. This didn't actually occur to me until now; the fact that I'm still repeating all of those characteristics except for legendary is unfortunate, however I think that the pun is good enough to justify it. ;)

In its original form that you proposed, I wouldn't say it looks easy though. You would need to change a good chunk of code to make six moves usable (most of the code relies on the Pokémon having at most four moves). And if you plan to let an NPC use this Pokémon, you need to make sure that the file trainers.txt can correctly load such a Pokémon (which it currently doesn't, because you can only give four moves per Pokémon). However the compiler can be easily rewritten. Finally, in battle, the code is written so that you can only choose among four moves, and the battle UI is a pain to change.

I mean, not only that sounds like it would require insane programming skills to modify a core gameplay aspect that has remained untouched since Gen 1, but also would require modifying the game UI, for both battle and summary screen, to make room for six moves, and you'd have to do all that just for one Pokémon.

This is the kind of objection that I was most expecting. StCooler sounds like he knows what he's talking about with respect to the specific problems it would cause, so I'm going to go ahead and assume that this just wouldn't work, or else would be extremely difficult to do.

If it was doable, I believe someone would have already came up with a fan game implementing more than four moves, and not only for one Pokémon. Same would happen with an Ability that allows a Pokémon to equip two held items at once, or to inflict two status conditions on the opponent simultaneously.

On a side note, I don't see why inflicting two status conditions simultaneously would be so difficult. If nothing else, it seems to me that you could just define new volatile status conditions that are functionally identical to the main five, and have the Ability say that a move inflicts the volatile version instead of the regular one if the target already has a non-volatile status condition. I feel as though the reason we haven't seen this yet is because they just don't want to, rather than because it can't be done.

If you want an Ability that somehow allows the Pokémon to use more moves

I don't; what I want is an Ability that plays into the concept of the Pokemon holding a lot of data/knowledge. Neither of your suggestions really do that.

I'm not crazy about your first suggestion, but your second suggestion sounds cool, just not for THIS Pokemon. It sounds like the signature Ability for a Pokemon like Kecleon.

Or, you design a specific move, that works in pair with this ability, that basically allows you to browse the moves that this Pokémon learns by levelling up (or by TM, or not), and loads the chosen move for this battle (make the move reset after battle).

I like this idea, and I think it's my new favourite.

Rather than browsing the Pokemon's entire TM or even level-up moveset, which I feel would overwhelm the player with choice, I feel like it would only browse the moves that this instance of the Pokemon has learned at some point in the past, regardless of how it learned them (level-up, TM, breeding, or tutor). In addition to keeping the options down (it only remembers the moves that the player actually cares about and wants to be on the list), it would also prevent access to moves that shouldn't be accessed yet; if the player wants a certain TM move to be on the list, they need to actually obtain that TM first, and it can't know level-up moves that the Pokemon hasn't reached yet. (I would want it to include TM moves though, not just level-up moves, as I would want the Ability to provide access to a wide range of potential moves.)

When used by an NPC (the Gym Leader in particular), that instance of the Pokemon would have a specifically-designed set of moves that it can load.

I foresee two problems with this move however. One is, assuming that you have to use the move just to gain the move you want (like with Mimic), would it actually be good? For example, suppose Bibleotech finds itself facing a Ground type. Is spending a turn teaching itself Scald worth taking a free Earthquake to the face, rather than just attacking with a STAB Psychic that turn? There are ways of mitigating this (such as having the move raise its defensive stats or recover some HP), but I'm not sure which would be the best, or if any of them would manage to not feel clunky.

The second problem I see - and I'm hoping you can offer some insight into this since you seem to know a decent amount about how the games work under the hood - is that Pokemon seems to shy away from moves that require an additional step of player input when used. For example, in Gen 1, Mimic allowed the player to select one of the opponent's moves to copy, but from Gen 2 onward it has instead copied a move from a specific slot; and I don't think there have been any other moves or Abilities that work this way since. Would there in fact be any problem with Mimic working the way it used to?

I'm hoping that that second issue isn't a dealbreaker, as there is in fact another new move I want to use (also in the same Gym battle funnily enough) that does require player selection. It's a priority move mind you, so it at least doesn't interrupt things "in the middle of a turn" for the player to make a choice.

 

[Corveone]

what I want is an Ability that plays into the concept of the Pokemon holding a lot of data/knowledge.

Well, you'll probably figure something out. Although an Ability is probably not the most practical way to portray that. A Pokémon with a lot of knowledge could be also a Pokémon with an insane level-up move pool, allowing it to learn stuff way quicker than Pokémon normally do, as well as a high TM compatibility.

It could also have a signature move, rather than a signature Ability. Or it could be even something to do with custom item(s) designed specifically for that Pokémon.

 

[StCooler]

I frankly don't care how good it is in competitive. I'd want it to be descent in a playthough, and for the Ability to matter when used by a Gym Leader (specifically the seventh).

It's not legendary. The main three legendary Pokemon of the game are already filled in. This Pokemon is caught in a Psychic-associated area (and wanting to have more new Pokemon to be found in the wild in this area is one of the main reasons for its existence), and I was imagining it as a companion Pokemon to librarians, researchers, historians etc. (The seventh Gym is Psychic type and is based on a university/library.)

Plus, there is already a Psychic/Steel legendary lion - Solgaleo. This didn't actually occur to me until now; the fact that I'm still repeating all of those characteristics except for legendary is unfortunate, however I think that the pun is good enough to justify it. ;)

The pun is good enough XD

I didn't mean that Bibleotech had to be competitive; my point is actually that it will be too powerful, and I used competitive as an illustration. If a Pokémon is broken in competitive, it will be double-broken in the main story.

On a side note, I don't see why inflicting two status conditions simultaneously would be so difficult. If nothing else, it seems to me that you could just define new volatile status conditions that are functionally identical to the main five, and have the Ability say that a move inflicts the volatile version instead of the regular one if the target already has a non-volatile status condition. I feel as though the reason we haven't seen this yet is because they just don't want to, rather than because it can't be done.

It would require duplicating some code, a bit everywhere, while being extremely careful with conflicts. If you've ever added a new PBEffect that compares to another one, for example, if you've added a new Entry-Hazard move, you know it's a pain.

I like this idea, and I think it's my new favourite.

Rather than browsing the Pokemon's entire TM or even level-up moveset, which I feel would overwhelm the player with choice, I feel like it would only browse the moves that this instance of the Pokemon has learned at some point in the past, regardless of how it learned them (level-up, TM, breeding, or tutor). In addition to keeping the options down (it only remembers the moves that the player actually cares about and wants to be on the list), it would also prevent access to moves that shouldn't be accessed yet; if the player wants a certain TM move to be on the list, they need to actually obtain that TM first, and it can't know level-up moves that the Pokemon hasn't reached yet. (I would want it to include TM moves though, not just level-up moves, as I would want the Ability to provide access to a wide range of potential moves.)

I was not thinking you could browse the entire level-up moveset, so we agree on that. Browsing the level-up moves that it had known or could have known, should be easy; all you have to do is derive the code for the move relearner.
However, browsing the TM's that the Pokémon learned at some point, means you have to implement a way to store TM's that this Pokémon has learned (because it's not implemented yet). It's not necessarily tedious but it's still more scripting.

When used by an NPC (the Gym Leader in particular), that instance of the Pokemon would have a specifically-designed set of moves that it can load.

I foresee two problems with this move however. One is, assuming that you have to use the move just to gain the move you want (like with Mimic), would it actually be good? For example, suppose Bibleotech finds itself facing a Ground type. Is spending a turn teaching itself Scald worth taking a free Earthquake to the face, rather than just attacking with a STAB Psychic that turn? There are ways of mitigating this (such as having the move raise its defensive stats or recover some HP), but I'm not sure which would be the best, or if any of them would manage to not feel clunky.

Actually, this is ingame decision-making, and it's up to the player, or the AI.
Which makes me realise I forgot to mention that you'll need to code an AI to use such a move. Again, it's not necessarily painful, but it's something you'll have to think, and it is yet more scripting. If an NPC uses this move, to choose the "best move" in the list, you would have to load each move, compute their scores and compare them. It's not hard though.

The second problem I see - and I'm hoping you can offer some insight into this since you seem to know a decent amount about how the games work under the hood - is that Pokemon seems to shy away from moves that require an additional step of player input when used. For example, in Gen 1, Mimic allowed the player to select one of the opponent's moves to copy, but from Gen 2 onward it has instead copied a move from a specific slot; and I don't think there have been any other moves or Abilities that work this way since. Would there in fact be any problem with Mimic working the way it used to?

I'm hoping that that second issue isn't a dealbreaker, as there is in fact another new move I want to use (also in the same Gym battle funnily enough) that does require player selection. It's a priority move mind you, so it at least doesn't interrupt things "in the middle of a turn" for the player to make a choice.

I don't know why Game Freak changed Mimic that way. However I don't see any real reason why they would do so. Maybe to keep the game simple? Maybe their first implementation caused bugs and they didn't know how to solve them? Maybe to avoid having one unique move that asks for more input while none other does?
I don't know.
Think about moves like U-turn. Due to the switching effect, you have to give some more input in the middle of a turn (choose which Pokémon to send out). In official games, and in Essentials, this is very well-coded. So I wouldn't worry about asking for input in the middle of a fight.

 

[ThePokeCorral]

Okay, first, I'd like to clarify on something that I perhaps have not been clear on so far; as it is relevant to a lot of the things you said, so I'll get it out of the way now so that I don't need to mention it in my response to every point.

I started this thread by saying that I'm working on a fictional Pokemon game, and the operative word there is "fictional." I am not coding a game; while I might want to try to get this made somewhere down the line, at this time I am merely writing things down about a theoretical game that does not exist. It's all just words in Word documents at this point, and my description of each new Pokemon, move, Ability, and boss NPC is very much still in the process of being written (and is not nearly as complete as you might think from my talking about the 7th Gym). I realize that this subforum is normally for people asking for help with coding, and other processes in the actual development of fangames; however I originally created this thread in another subforum, and as you might notice above, a mod moved it here.

At this stage, the only questions I'm really asking WRT whether to put something in the game are "Can it be done," "Would it be cool," and "Would it play well?" Moreover, by "CAN it be done," I'm assuming that the people doing it had the time and resources of those making the main series games. If it would be a reasonable task by the standards of Game Freak but would be a much bigger task by the standards of a fan game project, I'm not really taking that into consideration. (That said, I'm not introducing any big new mechanics like Mega Evolution.) Further-furthermore, if I DID try to actually make this one day and I learned Pokemon Essentials or whatnot in pursuit of that, I don't imagine I'd be doing it all myself.

I'm not saying you're being overly critical; I just think that this ought to be clear if it wasn't already. I appreciate your feedback and am enjoying this conversation. 🙂

With that out off the way, I'll address specific points.

However, browsing the TM's that the Pokémon learned at some point, means you have to implement a way to store TM's that this Pokémon has learned (because it's not implemented yet). It's not necessarily tedious but it's still more scripting.

Keeping with your original suggestion that this signature move work in tandem with the Ability, I was thinking that the Ability would do the storage (so the code for that would be associated mainly with the Ability), and the move would then pull from this information pool assuming its existence. The move would not be designed to be usable on a Pokemon without the Ability, and the Ability would not be designed to function on another Pokemon (that would have its own history of moves learned) if gained by it; it would be one of those moves and Abilities that cannot be copied, and effects that would do so (like Trace or Skill Swap) will fail.

So basically, whenever the Pokemon learns a move, the pool associated with the Ability is updated with that move. It would come pre-loaded with the four moves that the Pokemon knows when caught, but wouldn't necessarily also have all of the moves that it is capable of learning at a lower levels; if coding demands that you need to use the Move Reminder to add those moves to the pool, I'd be okay with that. Or alternatively, the pool could be updated every time the Pokemon forgets a move; since moves that have been learned but not yet forgotten don't need to be remembered this way.

Actually, this is ingame decision-making, and it's up to the player, or the AI.

I think you're missing my point. My question wasn't "how would you answer the question of whether it's worth it"; it was "is the answer 'no' enough of the time as to make the move pointless?" If you would never actually want to use it – because attacking rather than spending a turn gaining a stronger move is always the better play – then it wouldn't be a very good move.

Which makes me realise I forgot to mention that you'll need to code an AI to use such a move. Again, it's not necessarily painful, but it's something you'll have to think, and it is yet more scripting. If an NPC uses this move, to choose the "best move" in the list, you would have to load each move, compute their scores and compare them. It's not hard though.

When used by the AI, I don't imagine this would be too complicated (relatively speaking) if the only moves being compared this way were type coverage moves. I said above that in the Gym battle its "six moves" would be a Water, Fighting, and Ghost type attack to cover its weaknesses, STAB attacks for its two types, and an undecided status move; so in this version, the moves that it has to choose between remembering could be the three coverage moves. (You could add MORE coverage moves, but then it's a question of power level.) Picking from a long list of status moves, while interesting for the player, I could see being a lot more complicated for the AI to decide.

Think about moves like U-turn. Due to the switching effect, you have to give some more input in the middle of a turn (choose which Pokémon to send out). In official games, and in Essentials, this is very well-coded. So I wouldn't worry about asking for input in the middle of a fight.

Having never actually used U-Turn or Volt Switch myself, I actually assumed that it always sent out the Pokemon in the next party slot, similar to moves like Whirlwind or Roar. If it lets you choose what to send out, then I agree that this is probably fine.

It would require duplicating some code, a bit everywhere, while being extremely careful with conflicts. If you've ever added a new PBEffect that compares to another one, for example, if you've added a new Entry-Hazard move, you know it's a pain.

I'm planning on having an Ability like this on a different Pokemon; rather that making all status conditions stackable, it only allows two to be used together with eachother, specifically poison and paralysis. I'd envisioned the Ability as decreeing in abstract "Moves and effects used by this Pokemon that would poison the target will not fail if the target is already paralyzed, and vice versa." Assuming that the double-condition doesn't need to persist if the target switches out, then, seeing as they create new volatile status conditions all the time, I again don't see why you can't just create a new volatile status condition that emulates poison / bad poison to be layered on top of paralysis, and a new volatile status condition that emulates paralysis to be layered on top of poison. If they can create, say, Ingrain, then why not this?

The example you linked to involves creating a new variant on Stealth Rocks that deals damage of a different type; but the main games literally did exactly that in Sword and Shield with Copperajah's signature G-Max move, so I'm not sure what your point is. Perhaps this is a case where you're interpreting the question as "could I code this easily," when I'm only thinking about whether Game Freak could do it?

 

[StCooler]

Okay, first, I'd like to clarify on something that I perhaps have not been clear on so far; as it is relevant to a lot of the things you said, so I'll get it out of the way now so that I don't need to mention it in my response to every point.

I started this thread by saying that I'm working on a fictional Pokemon game, and the operative word there is "fictional." I am not coding a game; while I might want to try to get this made somewhere down the line, at this time I am merely writing things down about a theoretical game that does not exist. It's all just words in Word documents at this point, and my description of each new Pokemon, move, Ability, and boss NPC is very much still in the process of being written (and is not nearly as complete as you might think from my talking about the 7th Gym). I realize that this subforum is normally for people asking for help with coding, and other processes in the actual development of fangames; however I originally created this thread in another subforum, and as you might notice above, a mod moved it here.

At this stage, the only questions I'm really asking WRT whether to put something in the game are "Can it be done," "Would it be cool," and "Would it play well?" Moreover, by "CAN it be done," I'm assuming that the people doing it had the time and resources of those making the main series games. If it would be a reasonable task by the standards of Game Freak but would be a much bigger task by the standards of a fan game project, I'm not really taking that into consideration. (That said, I'm not introducing any big new mechanics like Mega Evolution.) Further-furthermore, if I DID try to actually make this one day and I learned Pokemon Essentials or whatnot in pursuit of that, I don't imagine I'd be doing it all myself.

I'm not saying you're being overly critical; I just think that this ought to be clear if it wasn't already. I appreciate your feedback and am enjoying this conversation. 🙂

I think you're missing my point. My question wasn't "how would you answer the question of whether it's worth it"; it was "is the answer 'no' enough of the time as to make the move pointless?" If you would never actually want to use it – because attacking rather than spending a turn gaining a stronger move is always the better play – then it wouldn't be a very good move.

I'm planning on having an Ability like this on a different Pokemon; rather that making all status conditions stackable, it only allows two to be used together with eachother, specifically poison and paralysis. I'd envisioned the Ability as decreeing in abstract "Moves and effects used by this Pokemon that would poison the target will not fail if the target is already paralyzed, and vice versa." Assuming that the double-condition doesn't need to persist if the target switches out, then, seeing as they create new volatile status conditions all the time, I again don't see why you can't just create a new volatile status condition that emulates poison / bad poison to be layered on top of paralysis, and a new volatile status condition that emulates paralysis to be layered on top of poison. If they can create, say, Ingrain, then why not this?

The example you linked to involves creating a new variant on Stealth Rocks that deals damage of a different type; but the main games literally did exactly that in Sword and Shield with Copperajah's signature G-Max move, so I'm not sure what your point is. Perhaps this is a case where you're interpreting the question as "could I code this easily," when I'm only thinking about whether Game Freak could do it?

Indeed, my point is not clear.

In general, the question of "can I do this?" in programming answers positively. The rule of thumb is: yes, everything you can think, can be done by coding. Can you stack two status conditions? Yes. Can you make an ability that allows you to use six moves? Yes. Can you implement the new battle system of Pokémon Legends Arceus? Yes. Can you implement three battle mechanics that completely change the battle system? Yes you can. Can Game Freak do all of this in one game? They're too lazy for that, but they could.
The only things you can't do by coding, are theoretical problems that will never cross your mind, or algorithms that may be simple but that a supercomputer would take billion of years to compute them.

All that you mentioned, even the six-move idea, *I* could do it. But I know Essentials a lot, I used to contribute a lot, I worked on big projects, I've helped people a lot, I've coded 40 custom, game-changing scripts for my own game, including three battle mechanics.
My point is. When someone new comes to the forum, they are not me. On the contrary, in general, they are very young, and moreover, they have no programming abilities. I don't mean I assumed you were young or had no programming skills, I'm just telling you what I think you will have to do, so you can tell, yourself, if it can be done by you, or if it's worth the effort.

EDIT: as for the questions "Would it be cool," and "Would it play well?", well, I've already answered that in my first post :)

Keeping with your original suggestion that this signature move work in tandem with the Ability, I was thinking that the Ability would do the storage (so the code for that would be associated mainly with the Ability), and the move would then pull from this information pool assuming its existence. The move would not be designed to be usable on a Pokemon without the Ability, and the Ability would not be designed to function on another Pokemon (that would have its own history of moves learned) if gained by it; it would be one of those moves and Abilities that cannot be copied, and effects that would do so (like Trace or Skill Swap) will fail.

So basically, whenever the Pokemon learns a move, the pool associated with the Ability is updated with that move. It would come pre-loaded with the four moves that the Pokemon knows when caught, but wouldn't necessarily also have all of the moves that it is capable of learning at a lower levels; if coding demands that you need to use the Move Reminder to add those moves to the pool, I'd be okay with that. Or alternatively, the pool could be updated every time the Pokemon forgets a move; since moves that have been learned but not yet forgotten don't need to be remembered this way.

The ability wouldn't store data (it's just an ID stored somewhere), but Pokémons can.
I find it smart to update the pool everytime the Pokémon forgets a move. You avoid filtering the list of moves to reject the moves that the Pokémon already knows. You will probably have to combine this code + with the Move Reminder (for moves that the Pokémon can "relearn" but not "learn", check out Aerodactyl in Gen 7, it learns Fire Fang/ Ice Fang / Thunder Fang at level 1, but actually this is made so that Aerodactyl can learn those moves without requiring a TM).

I think you're missing my point. My question wasn't "how would you answer the question of whether it's worth it"; it was "is the answer 'no' enough of the time as to make the move pointless?" If you would never actually want to use it – because attacking rather than spending a turn gaining a stronger move is always the better play – then it wouldn't be a very good move.

I didn't explain well XD
Actually, I was thinking that in the Battle UI, you choose the "learning move" move, the move menu appears, you choose the move, and then the Pokémon uses the new move during this turn. A bit like Z-moves. You trigger the Z-move button, and then you choose which Z-move you will use this turn. Or a bit like Mimic in Gen 1, according to your description.

When used by the AI, I don't imagine this would be too complicated (relatively speaking) if the only moves being compared this way were type coverage moves. I said above that in the Gym battle its "six moves" would be a Water, Fighting, and Ghost type attack to cover its weaknesses, STAB attacks for its two types, and an undecided status move; so in this version, the moves that it has to choose between remembering could be the three coverage moves. (You could add MORE coverage moves, but then it's a question of power level.) Picking from a long list of status moves, while interesting for the player, I could see being a lot more complicated for the AI to decide.

No, the AI doesn't mind XD
The AI can aready choose among all moves.

 

[ThePokeCorral]

All that you mentioned, even the six-move idea, *I* could do it. [...] My point is. When someone new comes to the forum, they are not me. On the contrary, in general, they are very young, and moreover, they have no programming abilities. I don't mean I assumed you were young or had no programming skills, I'm just telling you what I think you will have to do, so you can tell, yourself, if it can be done by you, or if it's worth the effort.

While I appreciate this insight, if only for future reference if I ever do decide to try to actually make this game, please understand that if the answer to those questions is "no" it really isn't a dealbreaker for me at this stage of the creative process, so long as it passes the bar of something that could reasonably be put into the next main series game release; because the operative word in "if I ever do decide to try to actually make this game" is if. I am writing descriptions of the new Pokemon, mechanics, and game progression largely as a purely creative exercise; and once I'm finished doing that, then maybe I'll try writing my first line of code in Pokemon Essentials. (And if you think that means this discussion doesn't belong in this forum, blame the mod who put it here.)

I apologize if you already understand that, and I'm sounding as though I'm laboring the point. I say it because you still appear to be speaking as though "I could do this but someone less experienced might not be able to" is a potential dealbreaker for me, and it isn't. Useful information in the future, perhaps, but not a dealbreaker.

Also – and I'm not going to go into too much detail about this right now, as I don't want to distract too much from the main discussion – when I say "something that could reasonably be put into the next main series game release," I think that that standard does actually have limits. "Reasonable" is subjective, but companies still have schedules and budgets to meet. For example, they were able to implement the elaborate animations for the new moves introduced in Sword and Shield, but (according to them) they needed to cut out half the National Pokedex to do it; which I imagine had to do with, again, budgeting and/or scheduling limitations. (Perhaps scheduling moreso that budgeting, seeing as Pokemon is literally the most profitable franchise in the world, but you get the idea.)

The ability wouldn't store data (it's just an ID stored somewhere), but Pokémons can.

Sure, but the code that actually does the work of updating the pool would be associated with the Ability, right? Or at least, this would be a lot easier to do than not having an Ability to go with the move and having all of the code be associated with the move, right?

You will probably have to combine this code + with the Move Reminder (for moves that the Pokémon can "relearn" but not "learn", check out Aerodactyl in Gen 7, it learns Fire Fang/ Ice Fang / Thunder Fang at level 1, but actually this is made so that Aerodactyl can learn those moves without requiring a TM).

I am well aware of moves that are leaned "at level 1" so as to make them learnable only by Move Reminder.

Again though, I'm not sure if the pool needs to start with all of the moves that the Pokemon learns at lower levels – partially because I suspect that the ability to remember those moves would be a lot less relevant than its TM moveset. To continue using your example of Gen 7 Aerodactyl, suppose that Aerodactyl had this Ability and you obtained one at level 50, meaning that its moves at the time were Sky Drop, Take Down, Crunch, and Ancient Power. Do you think that the pool should come pre-loaded with Agility and Roar? If not, then it seems inconsistent to have it include all of the moves it learns at level 1.

Perhaps a better question to ask is, do you think that the pool should come pre-loaded with any moves at all, rather than the player needing to compile the pool one move at a time themselves?

Actually, I was thinking that in the Battle UI, you choose the "learning move" move, the move menu appears, you choose the move, and then the Pokémon uses the new move during this turn. A bit like Z-moves. You trigger the Z-move button, and then you choose which Z-move you will use this turn.

So, you think that the move should actually get used on the turn that it is "remembered," so you don't have to "waste a turn" remembering it? That occurred to me, but I worried that it would be too powerful. Do you not think that it would be? I'm thinking largely in the context of type-coverage attacks here.


As to the layering status conditions thing. If you are suggesting that creating a new volatile status condition, regardless of what it does, would be "a lot of work"... well, I definitely have several of those in mind. I think that most of them are beneficial effects, like Ingrain or Aqua Ring; but I imagine that the coding is similar, if not identical, whether it's something like Aqua Ring or something like Leech Seed.