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Pokemon Sun and Moon Ratings

Frozocrone

Fighting a bigger fight
1,472
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9
Years
  • 1."Kindly tell me where XY beats the first eighteen episodes of Best Wishes in that regard then. " ->
    Huh ? You guys are comparing XY SEASON 3 with S&M SEASON 1 that's why I said that it's not fair and actually the firsts ratings of BW were fantastic (9.3) but got lower and lower really fast... While XY kept around 4-5-6 during the first season and 4-5 during the second, BW season 2 on the other hands got a lot of time lower than 3. XY season 1 also did better ratings than some episodes of D/P season 4... If I follow your logic then Japanese liked XY more than D/P ?

    2. I know the numbers are fine for both of them , I just don't liked how you guys acted like Japanese didn't like XY because it's totally wrong , some of them like XY , some of them like S&M , some of them like both , it works like it works here.
    I really want to know where XY hit <2.0 because Bulbapedia list BW077 as the lowest episode ever in the Pokemon anime.
    We also got an interview by the director of XY&Z after the saga was over... First time a director was interviewed since Takeshi Shudo in 2005 I believe ? Why did they do that ? The magazine actually paid the XY director to talk about a show that is not loved at all (according to you) ? Those guys are really weird ! :P

    3."OS and XY make sense because of primary and recency effect. Also goes to show that XY isn't nearly as liked as other sagas by the fact OS makes the top 100." ->
    OS is a legendary saga for everybody who love Pokemon , of course it's in the top100 and others saga ARE NOT in the top 500, only XY&Z is in the top 200,it's a poll from 1980 to 2016 so Japanese could have voted for D/P or AG easily but no, they only voted for XY&Z and OS instead.

    4."Serena only got her own segment because the presenters on the show asked who someone's favourite character was." ->
    Come on... Do you really think they would have allowed Shoko to have this segment if her favorite character was Iris (no disrespect to her I actually like this character) ? The show was prepared , they knew exactly what they were doing and what the fans wanted , don't be stupid... Why did they asked only Shoko about her favorite character (especially when every japanese knew since 2014 that she loves Serena) ? Why not the others guest ? Why only Shoko ? They knew Serena was popular, they did this on purpose, I don't even want to talk about the Serena music box and all these stuffs because you seem to forget to be objective when you don't like a character...
    Oh and no comments from you about Serena's voice actress ? I still want to know why she was there instead of the "so loved" Alola characters who are currently in the show. If it's not popularity and love from the audience for Serena and XY&Z, I don't know what is it, especially considering the fact that she is not a part of the new show. (for the 10th anniversary special, they brought back Misty's VA at that time... I wonder which character was loved and popular before Dawn come...Nah according to you , it's random)

    5."I wouldn't be surprised to see Greninja and Serena win tbqh, recency effect at work and the fact a lot of the OS nostalgia fans are put off by the movie because of the fact Misty and Brock were essentially replaced by Makato and Souji." ->
    The movie was well received in Japan , of course, if they would have used Brock and Misty instead , the profit would have been better but even without them, the movie was still well received in Japan, they are not the type of people to complain anyway, only the US got mad about it and I perfectly understand.
    When Japan like Serena and Greninja more it's all about recency ? What about B/W ? Did Iris and Cilan were liked like that after the end of B/W except for their popular voice actors ? I thought the ratings meant everything ? I can agree that it's a part but recency is only a small part of the thing. Don't mistake your opinions with the facts, that's all I have to say on this topic, now carry on and emphasis your love for S&M by their (poor for a new show) ratings if you want.

    1) Uhh...you realise that ever since XY70 (I think that's when Goodra left) the anime never got more than 3.7 documented? The point is XY failed to maintain viewership and while that's expected to some degree, it's not expected losing ~2m halfway way through. Yokai Watch was also taking off by that point which gave it a lot of viewers.

    2) Here. It's the first half of Ash vs Alain for reference

    For future reference, don't trust Bulbapedia for information. It's a wiki. Anyone can edit it.

    Also I'm aware that not all of Japan hated XY and adore SM. I only use Japan as a broad generalisation which I really shouldn't do but it's convenient all the same. The main ratings the anime is interested in are in the child demographics anyway and you have to question whether kids prefer serious anime with lots of action or anime that light-hearted and makes them laugh.

    As for the interview...because the magazine wanted to? Because it was the most recent saga? Because there was a huge backlash when Ash lost? Because of Amour? There are many reasons why they could have done it, take your pick, even if you want, take because the magazine liked XY.

    3) Fine. Wrong choice of words on my part.

    Although why being the 209th best anime is such an achievement, please enlighten me.

    4) She's one of the presenters of Pokemon Sunday. Yes, I expected a segment from her. And Serena's VA did a voice over, she wasn't on the show.

    5) Iris and Cilan are liked in Japan. Predominately due to VAs, especially for Cilan. That's not the case with the dubbed variants.

    > poor for a new show

    You literally said you know the numbers are fine for both of them, now they're poor?
     
    549
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    7
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    • Seen Feb 25, 2018
    Just to change things up here, it will be interesting to see how the show does on Disney XD. I did see they're promoting it and it's getting good time slots, but how is the time off from the first two episodes in December going to hurt? Pokémon was still riding the popularity wave from the 20th anniversary, the Sun and Moon games being recently released, and still a little buzz from Pokémon Go in December, but now that wave has tapered down with time. Granted I don't know to what level Pokémon is a big thing with kids right now, but I think there'd be a better chance of the show being a big hit for Disney XD if they were able to start the series earlier. Also, kids playing Pokémon Go that weren't necessarily players of the Nintendo games or viewers of the anime will be looking at something completely different than what they're used to with Go. I'm being pessimistic here, but it's real things to think about and if it doesn't get viewers Disney XD will likely drop it after SM is over.
     
    30
    Posts
    6
    Years
    • Seen Sep 22, 2017
    1) Uhh...you realise that ever since XY70 (I think that's when Goodra left) the anime never got more than 3.7 documented? The point is XY failed to maintain viewership and while that's expected to some degree, it's not expected losing ~2m halfway way through. Yokai Watch was also taking off by that point which gave it a lot of viewers.

    2) Here. It's the first half of Ash vs Alain for reference

    For future reference, don't trust Bulbapedia for information. It's a wiki. Anyone can edit it.

    Also I'm aware that not all of Japan hated XY and adore SM. I only use Japan as a broad generalisation which I really shouldn't do but it's convenient all the same. The main ratings the anime is interested in are in the child demographics anyway and you have to question whether kids prefer serious anime with lots of action or anime that light-hearted and makes them laugh.

    As for the interview...because the magazine wanted to? Because it was the most recent saga? Because there was a huge backlash when Ash lost? Because of Amour? There are many reasons why they could have done it, take your pick, even if you want, take because the magazine liked XY.

    3) Fine. Wrong choice of words on my part.

    Although why being the 209th best anime is such an achievement, please enlighten me.

    4) She's one of the presenters of Pokemon Sunday. Yes, I expected a segment from her. And Serena's VA did a voice over, she wasn't on the show.

    5) Iris and Cilan are liked in Japan. Predominately due to VAs, especially for Cilan. That's not the case with the dubbed variants.

    > poor for a new show

    You literally said you know the numbers are fine for both of them, now they're poor?

    1) Let's see how S&M the "so loved" anime will do in season 2-3 and if it got better ratings, I will shut my mouth but it still won't mean that XY&Z was hated.

    2) I was wrong on that then BUT it's the freaking Kalos league final where the Pokemon anime got the biggest backlash they never had before... It's the huge troll of the season , it makes sense that they got a bad rating , if Ash would have won , the ratings would have been WAY better... BW still did less than 2.2 (so it could mean less than 2.0) in their season 2 , 4 years before XY&Z and S&M is doing 2.7 in their first season... I'm pretty sure they'll do lower than 2.0 in season 3.

    3) Yes I'm fine with you and I have nothing against you , I just didn't like how you acted by stating your opinions as fact, if you like S&M and dislike XY&Z that's fine but don't believe that everyone in the Japan
    country think like you. If kids prefer S&M over XY&Z and they are the main target this is fine but kids don't represent all the people in the Japan contry (especially these days)

    Now let's talk about the interview a bit :

    "As for the interview...because the magazine wanted to? ->
    Why the magazine wanted to do this ? I thought it was a hated series so doing an interview about this series would destroy their selling profit...what a bad company...

    Because it was the most recent saga?
    I'm still waiting for an interview about AG , DP , BW by the directors after these saga.

    Because there was a huge backlash when Ash lost?
    They didn't talk about Ash lost in the interview , I don't know what you are talking about

    Because of Amour?
    Amour ? What is this ? Oh I guess you are talking about "SatoSere (サトセレ)" the hashtag which was trending on Twitter multiple times after an episode about this and for almost 3 days after the 'kissing scene' ."SatoSere (サトセレ) was also one of the most searched tags on Pixiv (a famous Japanese website like Deviantart) for almost 2 weeks after XY&Z ended... It's weird that the Japanese are acting like this for something which come from a show they don't like (again , according to you).

    There are many reasons why they could have done it, take your pick, even if you want, take because the magazine liked XY ->
    Because the magazine like every others company like to make money so they did an interview about something the Japanese liked ? I don't recall a magazine doing interviews about something that is hated by the audience of their country.

    4) You do realize that she's a VOICE ACTRESS ? It still mean a lot that she was narrating the 20th anniversary and you still didn't explain to me why the Alola voice actors didn't have done this themself since they are so loved according to you and currently in the show.

    5) That's why I said "except for their popular voice actors" Iris and Cilan are ONLY liked in Japan because of that , not for the characters themself... Serena (from the hated show XY&Z) is loved in Japan and her voice actress was totally new 3 years ago... I remember that in 2013 some people thought that she wasn't going to be a main character because her voice actress was not popular at all...Now she's narrating the 20th anniversary of a big show who has been around for 20 years... I wonder why ? She comes from a hated series so why did they pick her to narrate the 20th anniversary of the whole anime ? especially when she is not working on the current anime... Pokemon can be really weird I guess.
     
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    2,688
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    • Seen Aug 29, 2020
    BanFairy, I'm pretty sure most fans here would be in agreement that S&M is doing worse in ratings than even XY, even Frozocone would agree there. And quite frankly, XY wasn't all THAT good of a series (I find it hard to believe that a series so "beloved" as XY would end up having its last two movies consistently outranking even the likes of Pokémon Heroes in terms of box office failures, which until that point, Pokémon Heroes was the worst-performing movie EVER, and even the Diancie movie, probably the only XY film that wasn't an outright bomb, proceeding to not do at all well compared to most other movies, failing to even break even with the final Best Wishes movie.), though I'll reserve judgment on M20 until AFTER it is released and we've got a good idea as to how well it performed (if it does just as bad as M18 and/or M19 if not performs even worse than both movies, THEN we can officially say SM is performing much worse than XY).

    As far as Frozocone, yeah, I'm not sure I buy into the whole thing about internet viewings regarding Pokémon being the reason its in the ratings dump. For starters, Doraemon, Crayon Shin-Chan, and Sazae-san, heck, even Dragon Ball Super, have consistently gotten much better ratings than Sun and Moon or, heck, even XY have gotten lately, and a lot of those HAVE gotten internet viewings as well (certainly, Dragon Ball Super has, since they generally update Dragon Ball Wiki with plot summaries and plot developments of recent episodes, which being an English-based Wiki could only have happened if they watched it online). In fact, Sazae-san actually has Original Series-level ratings. And don't get me started with NCIS and its various spinoffs that managed to get almost Kanto-level ratings even currently, and that's DESPITE the CBS App and thus internet viewing on demand. More likely than not, it's because even the target audience realizes that SM is probably crap right now.

    Well, either way, at this point, going by the ratings, I think that SM's going to be the Adventures of Super Mario World of Pokémon anime (those who've watched the Mario cartoons would probably know what I mean by that).
     
    30
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    • Seen Sep 22, 2017
    BanFairy, I'm pretty sure most fans here would be in agreement that S&M is doing worse in ratings than even XY, even Frozocone would agree there. And quite frankly, XY wasn't all THAT good of a series (I find it hard to believe that a series so "beloved" as XY would end up having its last two movies consistently outranking even the likes of Pokémon Heroes in terms of box office failures, which until that point, Pokémon Heroes was the worst-performing movie EVER, and even the Diancie movie, probably the only XY film that wasn't an outright bomb, proceeding to not do at all well compared to most other movies, failing to even break even with the final Best Wishes movie.), though I'll reserve judgment on M20 until AFTER it is released and we've got a good idea as to how well it performed (if it does just as bad as M18 and/or M19 if not performs even worse than both movies, THEN we can officially say SM is performing much worse than XY).

    As far as Frozocone, yeah, I'm not sure I buy into the whole thing about internet viewings regarding Pokémon being the reason its in the ratings dump. For starters, Doraemon, Crayon Shin-Chan, and Sazae-san, heck, even Dragon Ball Super, have consistently gotten much better ratings than Sun and Moon or, heck, even XY have gotten lately, and a lot of those HAVE gotten internet viewings as well (certainly, Dragon Ball Super has, since they generally update Dragon Ball Wiki with plot summaries and plot developments of recent episodes, which being an English-based Wiki could only have happened if they watched it online). In fact, Sazae-san actually has Original Series-level ratings. And don't get me started with NCIS and its various spinoffs that managed to get almost Kanto-level ratings even currently, and that's DESPITE the CBS App and thus internet viewing on demand. More likely than not, it's because even the target audience realizes that SM is probably crap right now.

    Well, either way, at this point, going by the ratings, I think that SM's going to be the Adventures of Super Mario World of Pokémon anime (those who've watched the Mario cartoons would probably know what I mean by that).

    You know , the whole point of the topic with Frozocone is that bad ratings or box offices failures /=/ people disliking the thing and you bring again another stuff to the topic since you said that Latios and Latias movie was the movie with the biggest box offices failures but it's actually the second favorite movie of the Japan audience , according to the 20th anniversary poll that I was talking about :
    http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2017/05/05/fans-rate-the-most-memorable-pokmon-movies
    So this just prove AGAIN that it's not because a movie is doing bad that it was not loved, and it's the same for XY&Z, it does had bad ratings (only during the league , I'm still curious how S&M will handle the 3rd season with the departure/league etc) but it doesn't mean that the Japanese didn't like it.

    Oh and I don't think we can label the 20th movie as an Alola movie...Even the Alola characters of the main anime are not even in this movie , there are new characters , it's not the same Ash and the same artstyle , it's not even in the Alola region (based on the summaries we got for now), so SM has nothing to do with this movie since it's a Kanto and 20th anniversary movie... Wait till a real movie about Alola with the Alola characters who are in the anime come (probably next year) to compare with XY... It's really unfair because it's a 20th anniversary movie based on nostalgia, it's not an Alola movie at all, it's basically a fanservice nostalgia movie who takes place in Kanto with some D/P remakes promotion in it and XY&Z Ash/animations, all the things are made to do an amazing box offices success.
     
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    You know , the whole point of the topic with Frozocone is that bad ratings or box offices failures /=/ people disliking the thing and you bring again another stuff to the topic since you said that Latios and Latias movie was the movie with the biggest box offices failures but it's actually the second favorite movie of the Japan audience , according to the 20th anniversary poll that I was talking about :
    http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2017/05/05/fans-rate-the-most-memorable-pokmon-movies
    So this just prove AGAIN that it's not because a movie is doing bad that it was not loved, and it's the same for XY&Z, it does had bad ratings (only during the league , I'm still curious how S&M will handle the 3rd season with the departure/league etc) but it doesn't mean that the Japanese didn't like it.

    Oh and I don't think we can label the 20th movie as an Alola movie...Even the Alola characters of the main anime are not even in this movie , there are new characters , it's not the same Ash and the same artstyle , it's not even in the Alola region (based on the summaries we got for now), so SM has nothing to do with this movie since it's a Kanto and 20th anniversary movie... Wait till a real movie about Alola with the Alola characters who are in the anime come (probably next year) to compare with XY... It's really unfair because it's a 20th anniversary movie based on nostalgia, it's not an Alola movie at all, it's basically a fanservice nostalgia movie who takes place in Kanto with some D/P remakes promotion in it and XY&Z Ash/animations, all the things are made to do an amazing box offices success.

    First of all, you have a problem with what I and Frozocone stated about ratings or, heck, box office stuff? Tell that to studio executives and marketers, because what we are stating is EXACTLY what they themselves think: If it doesn't turn a profit at the box office, nor does it even do well ratings wise, doesn't matter what individual fans might think, it gets canned. A good example of this was The Adventures of Super Mario World, as that got cancelled due to low ratings. Same goes for GCB as well, and Maureen, and NBC's Heroes, and for films, we've also got examples like Rise of the Guardians and the Winnie the Pooh film (which flopped largely because it was released the same day as Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows 2, yet Disney interpreted the failure as meaning no one wanted 2D animated films, so we're stuck with 3D animated films from here on out).

    Second of all, just because some fans are claiming Pokémon Heroes was a good film (I'm one of those fans, BTW, but that's not the point) doesn't change the fact that when it was released, it was a massive flop, meaning NO ONE at the time liked it. It's like with The Little Mermaid II: Return to the Sea. Was utterly HATED upon its debut. Now in the 2010s, it's actually considered one of the better Disney DTV Sequels. It just means time was pretty friendly towards Pokemon Heroes, that's all. Maybe if that blog was dated back in 2003 when the movie was released, I'd be a bit more receptive to your point.

    Lastly, since it's airing during the Sun and Moon series, it is, de facto, an Alolan movie, so that statement's not going to matter much (besides, filling it with DP/XYZ Ash elements and nostalgia won't actually ensure it's a box office success. Let me remind you that the movie writers had a similar idea regarding the Hoopa movie by making it chock-full of Legendary Pokemon thinking, hey, lots of people love Legendaries, so they'd flock on over. That made it even WORSE of a box office bomb than Pokemon Heroes ever was). And even IF we are to argue that it actually isn't an Alolan movie, there's still the undeniable fact that after this movie, IF they are to do an actual Alolan movie in the future, they have nothing to work with thanks to the fact that they wasted Marshadow's debut by having it appear in THIS movie rather than wait until Movie 21, an actual Alolan movie, thus meaning they have literally nothing to work with on Movie 21 due to using up all Mythical Pokemon in Generation VII.

    As far as interviews, they had interviews for AG, actually. Masamitsu Hidaka, about ten years ago. You should remember it, it's the one that infamously implied that the girls were nothing more than eyecandy for the boys.

    The fact of the matter is, in other words, Sun and Moon is a bust, and it's probably going to be the end of Pokemon, and if M20 does turn up a flop as I fear right now, that's yet another nail in the coffin for what was once a grand series. The fact that the ratings have been terrible right now, doing even worse than XY as you yourself pointed out, only shows the ship is sinking even further.
     
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    • Seen Sep 22, 2017
    Ok I'm going to introduce you the problem again :

    S&M anime -> Comedy , Ash is a total new Ash , outfit from the Alola games , 5 characters from Alola, take place in the Alola region

    Movie 20 -> XY&Z director is working on it (but not for the main S&M anime) , Different animations and artstyle , Not a comedy , Ash is the same as XY&Z , outfit from OS , the 5 characters from Alola who are in the MAIN ANIME are not there for the movie of their respective saga (first time for a Pokemon movie) , labelled as "20th anniversary movie" not as "the Alola movie" or "The S&M movie" , doesn't take place in Alola.

    I still don't get how you can consider this movie as an Alola movie , it doesn't make sense , at this point it's more an opinion than a fact, the future obvious success of this movie HAS NOTHING TO DO with Alola since it's NOT an Alola movie, it's a movie made to celebrate the 20th anniversary which take place in Kanto... You talked about Marshadow yeah but Magearna was in the XY&Z movie , does that mean it was an Alola movie ? I don't think so.

    Oh and they have A LOT of things in reserve : Ultra beasts / Cosmog / Solgaleo / Lunala / Necrozma (they can appear both in the anime and the movie like Xerneas and Yveltal did) , a Pokemon from gen 8 to promote for the 2nd Alola movie in 2019, don't tell me that there's nothing left, Marshadow is not the only legendary.
     
    2,688
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    • Seen Aug 29, 2020
    Ok I'm going to introduce you the problem again :

    S&M anime -> Comedy , Ash is a total new Ash , outfit from the Alola games , 5 characters from Alola, take place in the Alola region

    Movie 20 -> XY&Z director is working on it (but not for the main S&M anime) , Different animations and artstyle , Not a comedy , Ash is the same as XY&Z , outfit from OS , the 5 characters from Alola who are in the MAIN ANIME are not there for the movie of their respective saga (first time for a Pokemon movie) , labelled as "20th anniversary movie" not as "the Alola movie" or "The S&M movie" , doesn't take place in Alola.

    I still don't get how you can consider this movie as an Alola movie , it doesn't make sense , at this point it's more an opinion than a fact, the future obvious success of this movie HAS NOTHING TO DO with Alola since it's NOT an Alola movie, it's a movie made to celebrate the 20th anniversary which take place in Kanto... You talked about Marshadow yeah but Magearna was in the XY&Z movie , does that mean it was an Alola movie ? I don't think so.

    Oh and they have A LOT of things in reserve : Ultra beasts / Cosmog / Solgaleo / Lunala / Necrozma (they can appear both in the anime and the movie like Xerneas and Yveltal did) , a Pokemon from gen 8 to promote for the 2nd Alola movie in 2019, don't tell me that there's nothing left, Marshadow is not the only legendary.

    It's released during Sun and Moon, so it's an Alola movie, pure and simple. It's the same thing as claiming that the Hoopa movie isn't a Kalos movie just because it featured a Mythical Pokémon that was from the Hoenn region. And it's completely different with Magearna since they were trying to tease Generation VII's impending release (same deal for why Lucario and Manaphy were in Movies 8 and 9, or why the Lati@s were in Movie 5, or why Zoroark was in Movie 13, or Awakened Mewtwo for Movie 17.). This is completely different as M20 is released DURING Generation VII.

    As far as your comment about having a lot of those things in reserve, maybe I should be a bit more specific: They don't have any distributable MYTHICAL Pokémon, as in, Pokémon like Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, Manaphy, Deoxys, Shaymin, Darkrai, Arceus, Diancie, Hoopa, Volcaneon, Victini, and the like. The Ultra Beasts, Cosmog, Solgaleo, Lunala, and Necrozma are Legendaries that you can get in-game without outside help other than possibly trading between versions. They are not the same thing as Mythical Pokémon, which require you to go to distribution events to get the Pokémon in question (the only exception being Deoxys during the Delta Episode of ORAS). Since the Jirachi movie, Movie 6 in other words, the Pokémon Company and moviemakers had the idea that they need to showcase the mythical Pokémon of the current generation, maybe also tease a mythical Pokémon of the next generation, mostly as a means to get people to get something out of the movie, many times giving them a starring role to ensure they can get them. Since they showcased Marshadow far too early, when they should have waited until Movie 21, they have no Mythical Pokémon to go for now (as you pointed out, Magearna already had a debut in the last movie, and that was the only other Mythical Pokémon for Generation VII). Ash's Pikachu and Ho-Oh would have been good enough as distribution prizes for the movie (not to mention Ash's Pikachu due to having a completely different entry in the Pokedex essentially qualifies as a different Pokémon anyhow, a quasi-Mythical Pokémon in other words).

    Either way, the one thing you cannot deny is that Sun and Moon is in the dumps regarding ratings, and unless it manages to do something to get it back to at least AG/DP-level ratings, if not OS-level ratings, it's not got a future, neither does the anime, for that matter. That's also what Frozocone is saying as well. You personally may like Sun and Moon, fine by me, but don't act like it is well liked in spite of bad ratings, or that XY is well liked in spite of bad ratings. The executives and marketers would frequently disagree with you there.
     
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    I still don't see how a movie who doesn't have the same characters as the current anime (even Ash is not the same) , doesn't have the same animations / artstyle and is not in the same place as the anime can be related to the main anime but it's your opinion I get it, maybe they did all these big changes and nostalgia promotion because they knew that a Alola movie with the animation of the S&M anime and the comedy wouldn't have work ?

    Now you made a good point I have to admit but they can still distribuate some Pokemon with new moves like they did with the Moonblast Jirachi or distribuate shiny legendaries since they are shiny locked , they can do a lot of things to promote the (real) Alola movies coming in 2018 and 2019.

    "Either way, the one thing you cannot deny is that Sun and Moon is in the dumps regarding ratings, and unless it manages to do something to get it back to at least AG/DP-level ratings, if not OS-level ratings, it's not got a future, neither does the anime, for that matter." ->

    I surely can't deny that S&M is in the dumps regarding ratings and it's funny because I actually don't like the S&M anime but I try to stay the more objective as I can, not a hater who assume stupid things about another country just because of ratings... But I have to disagree about your last sentence since the anime main goal is to promote the games and the games are still selling well so as long as the games are doing well, the anime will always live even if it gets less than 1.0 rating.
     
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    I still don't see how a movie who doesn't have the same characters as the current anime (even Ash is not the same) , doesn't have the same animations / artstyle and is not in the same place as the anime can be related to the main anime but it's your opinion I get it, maybe they did all these big changes and nostalgia promotion because they knew that a Alola movie with the animation of the S&M anime and the comedy wouldn't have work ?

    Now you made a good point I have to admit but they can still distribuate some Pokemon with new moves like they did with the Moonblast Jirachi or distribuate shiny legendaries since they are shiny locked , they can do a lot of things to promote the (real) Alola movies coming in 2018 and 2019.

    "Either way, the one thing you cannot deny is that Sun and Moon is in the dumps regarding ratings, and unless it manages to do something to get it back to at least AG/DP-level ratings, if not OS-level ratings, it's not got a future, neither does the anime, for that matter." ->

    I surely can't deny that S&M is in the dumps regarding ratings and it's funny because I actually don't like the S&M anime but I try to stay the more objective as I can, not a hater who assume stupid things about another country just because of ratings... But I have to disagree about your last sentence since the anime main goal is to promote the games and the games are still selling well so as long as the games are doing well, the anime will always live even if it gets less than 1.0 rating.

    The Adventures of Super Mario World by DiC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Mario_World_(TV_series)) also was meant to promote the Super Mario World game that was released back then. Let me remind you that it got cancelled within a season due to extremely bad ratings and reception, REGARDLESS of whether it sold any units of that game. Heck, Sonic X was meant to promote the 3D Sonic games (Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2 Battle, even Sonic Heroes to an extent) due to several of their stories being used, yet that never saved it from getting the axe the moment it started to do poorly. Even the Kirby: Right Back At Ya Anime was primarily made to promote the Kirby: Nightmare in Dreamland game alongside Kirby Air Riders game. Again, got cancelled in the third season due to bad ratings. And don't get me started on the Battle Network and Mega Man NT Warrior or Mega Man Star Force. And let's not forget that the Love Hina anime got cut short due to a sudden loss in revenue, and that anime was meant to promote the manga. If all of THOSE can get cancelled despite promoting the series, many times before the media they were promoting had even finished up, and regardless of whether those games sold well at all, Pokémon most certainly can as well (since guess what? All those shows I listed? Their main goal was to promote those franchises as well, yet they still get cancelled/cut short precisely BECAUSE of bad ratings). And if Pokémon 20 does get a bomb at the box office, that also makes it all the more likely for it to get cancelled, in addition to the terrible ratings. And for the record, I am being pretty objective regarding this as well, and I'm pretty sure even Frozocone is attempting to be objective.
     

    CidHazard

    just a miserable pile of secrets
    582
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  • Woah what did I miss? this thread suddenly exploded :D

    First off why are you comparing pokemon to the legendary harem comedy Love hina? that show didn't get cancelled because of poor ratings (Where did you even get that info) It was an anime with a 25 episode run with a couple of movies and OVA's that for the most part completed the manga's story, we didn't get another season because of the lack of material... Please don't spread false information such as it getting cancelled because of low ratings it didn't.

    You mentioned Sonic X and the Kirby shows that got cancelled... but didn't even mention shows like Beyblade, Yu-gi-oh, card fight vanguard, and gundam shows that still get series every year and yet rarely even hit the top 10 ratings.

    Japanese animation studios aren't like American studio's whom, pressure new shows to perform in ratings or get taken off the air several episode's due to poor ratings and reception. American shows lives and dies off their ratings...

    Do you know why most popular Anime don't get into the top ten ratings as much? that's because most anime that the international market consumes are shown late at night... as in shows that air around 11 - 4 pm... well unless the anime is on Fuji TV... Like Dragon Ball, Assassination classroom and Your lie in April (If I recall all of them hit the top ten ratings at a point in their airing). Most shows hailed as the savior of anime get laughably horrible ratings because of this but do the Studio's care? heck no... why is that you ask?

    Well it's because they make their money elsewhere.

    Here's how it works...

    -BREAK-

    Eichiro Oda makes one Piece for Shonen Jump. Oda and Shounen jump spits the profits off the tankabon (A volume of manga), merch, video games, and the volume of shounen jump itself.

    With the money made from that, Shounen Jump now contracts Toei animation to make an Anime to boost the sales or raise awareness of the said work, so they can earn more money off Shounen Jump sales. Note that the studio gets paid upfront and gets a budget to produce the show.

    Toei animation then gets paid in ad rev (Since One piece doesn't air on midnight) not to mention they get a split off the blue rays and DVD's (Most studio's just rely on really expensive Blue ray's because they don't really get ad rev, they do have a lot of additional content tho; from uncencored scenes, OVA's, or a volume of the LN it's based on).

    Also this is why low budget slice of life/comedy shows aimed at the entire family like doreamon and shin-chan that have been running for decades have thousands of episodes. Not to mention these shows are extremely popular often pulling 14% - 20% of the active tv viewers when they air These are the shows that rely on ratings,and given how cheap they are to produce they make bank.

    And this model of production is why there are less original shows... Studio's Gamble on Original shows which they fund themselves. Have no existing fan base and don't have the backing of gigantic corporations. And why most anime adaptions often end after 12 episodes and don't get a season two (They just exist to provide awareness for the original work)

    Original Works kill studio's just look at Gainax

    -BREAK-

    Just like how Konami keeps giving money too Studio Gallop to produce Yu-gi-oh anime. Nintendo will keep throwing wads of cash onto OLM's face to produce episodes of the Pokemon Anime that's a fact.

    In the end the ratings have nothing to do with the show getting cancelled or not. It's the company or whom ever owns the IP, if they decide to keep giving studios the budget to make a show. They'll keep making them...
     
    2,688
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    • Seen Aug 29, 2020
    Woah what did I miss? this thread suddenly exploded :D

    First off why are you comparing pokemon to the legendary harem comedy Love hina? that show didn't get cancelled because of poor ratings (Where did you even get that info) It was an anime with a 25 episode run with a couple of movies and OVA's that for the most part completed the manga's story, we didn't get another season because of the lack of material... Please don't spread false information such as it getting cancelled because of low ratings it didn't.

    I'm pretty sure that the Love Hina anime got cut short because of an unexpected loss of money. At least, that's what I read a while back on here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Love_Hina&type=revision&diff=63236915&oldid=63183154 (and for the record, the anime ended significantly long before the end of the manga, at about Chapter 40 if I've done the research right. We didn't get a proper ending until that OVA Love Hina Again which adapted the final chapter of the manga). Besides, it makes little sense to have it end there when it isn't even half-way through the whole manga, especially if it's as popular as you claim it to be: Dragon Ball, for example, was a very popular manga and, and its anime adaptation makes every effort to continue alongside the Manga, even including filler elements specifically to ensure it doesn't accidentally overtake the manga. If Love Hina were even HALF as popular in Japan or even overseas as Dragon Ball, we would have gotten a LOT more than 25 measly episodes from it.

    You mentioned Sonic X and the Kirby shows that got cancelled... but didn't even mention shows like Beyblade, Yu-gi-oh, card fight vanguard, and gundam shows that still get series every year and yet rarely even hit the top 10 ratings.

    So why were Sonic X and Kirby, which WERE popular with both the international market AND in Japan, cancelled, then?

    Japanese animation studios aren't like American studio's whom, pressure new shows to perform in ratings or get taken off the air several episode's due to poor ratings and reception. American shows lives and dies off their ratings...

    Do you know why most popular Anime don't get into the top ten ratings as much? that's because most anime that the international market consumes are shown late at night... as in shows that air around 11 - 4 pm... well unless the anime is on Fuji TV... Like Dragon Ball, Assassination classroom and Your lie in April (If I recall all of them hit the top ten ratings at a point in their airing). Most shows hailed as the savior of anime get laughably horrible ratings because of this but do the Studio's care? heck no... why is that you ask?

    Well it's because they make their money elsewhere.

    Shouldn't that be 11 PM-4 AM? That's late at night. 4PM is the afternoon, meaning that's during school hours or the middle of the day. That would if anything be a big ratings booster and make it a whole lot WORSE. Besides, America also gets a lot of sales from outside America for the shows as well. At least in the case of Super Mario World, that STILL didn't save it from cancellation. Heck, technically, Super Mario World was an anime since they had to get direction from the actual creators from Japan (at the time it was being made, Super Mario World was still under the process of being localized by NOA). And bear in mind, Super Mario World's game success never stopped the show from being cancelled. And in either case, even if they do air late at night, that doesn't explain why Pokémon is getting such awful ratings, since it if anything is being aired in the early evening, when most people are still up, or at least during the morning when people are either just getting up or are already up.

    Here's how it works...

    -BREAK-

    Eichiro Oda makes one Piece for Shonen Jump. Oda and Shounen jump spits the profits off the tankabon (A volume of manga), merch, video games, and the volume of shounen jump itself.

    With the money made from that, Shounen Jump now contracts Toei animation to make an Anime to boost the sales or raise awareness of the said work, so they can earn more money off Shounen Jump sales. Note that the studio gets paid upfront and gets a budget to produce the show.

    Toei animation then gets paid in ad rev (Since One piece doesn't air on midnight) not to mention they get a split off the blue rays and DVD's (Most studio's just rely on really expensive Blue ray's because they don't really get ad rev, they do have a lot of additional content tho; from uncencored scenes, OVA's, or a volume of the LN it's based on).

    Also this is why low budget slice of life/comedy shows aimed at the entire family like doreamon and shin-chan that have been running for decades have thousands of episodes. Not to mention these shows are extremely popular often pulling 14% - 20% of the active tv viewers when they air These are the shows that rely on ratings,and given how cheap they are to produce they make bank.

    And this model of production is why there are less original shows... Studio's Gamble on Original shows which they fund themselves. Have no existing fan base and don't have the backing of gigantic corporations. And why most anime adaptions often end after 12 episodes and don't get a season two (They just exist to provide awareness for the original work)

    Original Works kill studio's just look at Gainax

    -BREAK-

    I can name a few anime, especially manga adaptations, that actually last a LOT longer than 12 episodes, or 25, even. Like Naruto, or Dragon Ball (it only ended when the Manga ended, and even there, it restarted when Toriyama made more manga as evidenced with Super), or Cardcaptor Sakura, even, so no, don't buy it at all, especially not regarding Pokémon, where it's pretty obvious from the writers' actions that they are panicking, making completely irrational decisions.

    Just like how Konami keeps giving money too Studio Gallop to produce Yu-gi-oh anime. Nintendo will keep throwing wads of cash onto OLM's face to produce episodes of the Pokemon Anime that's a fact.

    In the end the ratings have nothing to do with the show getting cancelled or not. It's the company or whom ever owns the IP, if they decide to keep giving studios the budget to make a show. They'll keep making them...

    If that were truly the case, they clearly wouldn't have revamped Pokémon in a clear attempt at competing with Yokai Watch by making it a slapstick show and turning Ash into an idiot. Nor, for that matter, would they have made some changes in how they market the movies with the Volcanion Movie due to how much of a box office disaster the Hoopa movie was. Heck, they wouldn't have gone so far as to put Marshadow, the only Gen VII Mythical Pokémon unaccounted for as of now, into Movie 20, instead waiting for Movie 21 to actually debut it. Just face it, Pokémon is DYING as a show, and even the writers know that. Why else would they debut Marshadow now despite not having ANY other Gen VII Mythical Pokémon to debut and distribute in potential future films, especially when Ash's Pikachu and Ho-Oh would have sufficed for Movie 20 distributions?

    Well, in any case, even though I am not at all optimistic about Pokémon's ratings, lets see what last week's episode's ratings turn out.
     
    Last edited:

    CidHazard

    just a miserable pile of secrets
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  • I'm pretty sure that the Love Hina anime got cut short because of an unexpected loss of money. At least, that's what I read a while back on here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Love_Hina&type=revision&diff=63236915&oldid=63183154 (and for the record, the anime ended significantly long before the end of the manga, at about Chapter 40 if I've done the research right. We didn't get a proper ending until that OVA Love Hina Again which adapted the final chapter of the manga). Besides, it makes little sense to have it end there when it isn't even half-way through the whole manga, especially if it's as popular as you claim it to be: Dragon Ball, for example, was a very popular manga and, and its anime adaptation makes every effort to continue alongside the Manga, even including filler elements specifically to ensure it doesn't accidentally overtake the manga. If Love Hina were even HALF as popular in Japan or even overseas as Dragon Ball, we would have gotten a LOT more than 25 measly episodes from it.

    For the Otaku culture of the time it was popular... tho they're not the ones who get to chose if the show's going to have a sequel or not.

    So why were Sonic X and Kirby, which WERE popular with both the international market AND in Japan, cancelled, then?

    If I recall both those shows are popular in the international market not so much in Japan. But, as those shows (You can add both Megaman NT and Star force in to this) didn't really affect the sales of their respective games as much as intended (That's just speculation of course, Capcom, Sega, and Nintendo pulled the plug on those shows not the network).

    Shouldn't that be 11 PM-4 AM? That's late at night. 4PM is the afternoon, meaning that's during school hours or the middle of the day. That would if anything be a big ratings booster and make it a whole lot WORSE. Besides, America also gets a lot of sales from outside America for the shows as well. At least in the case of Super Mario World, that STILL didn't save it from cancellation. Heck, technically, Super Mario World was an anime since they had to get direction from the actual creators from Japan (at the time it was being made, Super Mario World was still under the process of being localized by NOA). And bear in mind, Super Mario World's game success never stopped the show from being cancelled. And in either case, even if they do air late at night, that doesn't explain why Pokémon is getting such awful ratings, since it if anything is being aired in the early evening, when most people are still up, or at least during the morning when people are either just getting up or are already up.

    Opps typo, 11 PM - 4 AM that's what I meant XD. Pokemon airs on Saturday BTW... The Super Mario World show wasn't produced in japan tho... I don't think it even aired there... it was made in association with Nintendo of America not Nintendo of Japan. Also Mario is such a polarizing figure there that he really doesn't need a show just to give awareness to him. If you remember the Japanese olympics trailer featured mario.

    I can name a few anime, especially manga adaptations, that actually last a LOT longer than 12 episodes, or 25, even. Like Naruto, or Dragon Ball (it only ended when the Manga ended, and even there, it restarted when Toriyama made more manga as evidenced with Super), or Cardcaptor Sakura, even, so no, don't buy it at all, especially not regarding Pokémon, where it's pretty obvious from the writers' actions that they are panicking, making completely irrational decisions.

    As you said just a few, just look at mal or anichart for the Spring season and you'll see that we only get a couple of 25 episode anime and a ton of 12 episode anime adapted from Manga's to LN's. the only anime that break 100+ mark are Shounen shows nowadays and there's only a literal handful of them (If you count those cheap animated shows like doreamon and shin chan well... those shows have thousands of episodes.) Even My Hero Acadamia a top 3 in Shounen Jumps popularity polls is only getting 25 episodes...

    If that were truly the case, they clearly wouldn't have revamped Pokémon in a clear attempt at competing with Yokai Watch by making it a slapstick show and turning Ash into an idiot. Nor, for that matter, would they have made some changes in how they market the movies with the Volcanion Movie due to how much of a box office disaster the Hoopa movie was. Heck, they wouldn't have gone so far as to put Marshadow, the only Gen VII Mythical Pokémon unaccounted for as of now, into Movie 20, instead waiting for Movie 21 to actually debut it. Just face it, Pokémon is DYING as a show, and even the writers know that. Why else would they debut Marshadow now despite not having ANY other Gen VII Mythical Pokémon to debut and distribute in potential future films, especially when Ash's Pikachu and Ho-Oh would have sufficed for Movie 20 distributions?

    Dying... Did you know that the Pokemon Anime is the most produce anime in Japan right now? The reason for the change in art style wasn't to copy Yokai watch as so many people are adamant about. It's a change in Equipment and Software. The number of moving frames in the show is outstanding in a technical standpoint really. But lets say that you're right and it's dying as a show... Nintendo is still not going to let it die. Just like Konami and Bandia whether you like it or not... They'll keep giving Studio's the budget to produce more episodes of the anime. Unless the Pokemon game completely tanks in sales and popularity... Nintendo isn't going to end the show.


    Well, in any case, even though I am not at all optimistic about Pokémon's ratings, lets see what last week's episode's ratings turn out.

    Yep, that's what this thread is about :D

    Ohh and BTW weedle I just want to thank you for being my reason to join this community.
    The old ratings thread's were so amazingly heated that I just couldn't help but throw my hat in :D
     
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    For the Otaku culture of the time it was popular... tho they're not the ones who get to chose if the show's going to have a sequel or not.

    Still... considering that it only lasted 25 episodes, it's unlikely it was that popular (Dragon Ball and Naruto lasted a LOT longer than that. Heck, even Syndicated Pokémon lasted a LOT longer than that).

    If I recall both those shows are popular in the international market not so much in Japan. But, as those shows (You can add both Megaman NT and Star force in to this) didn't really affect the sales of their respective games as much as intended (That's just speculation of course, Capcom, Sega, and Nintendo pulled the plug on those shows not the network).

    Sonic I could buy being not as popular within Japan as internationally, but Kirby? Yeah, correct me if I'm mistaken, but I thought Kirby was actually pretty popular in Japan, especially his more cutesy appearance (in fact, so popular in Japan, that when brought over state-side, any covers for Kirby games generally tried to edge Kirby up by making him look angry on the cover to appeal more to us Westerners, or else he'd get the Stafy effect.).

    Opps typo, 11 PM - 4 AM that's what I meant XD. Pokemon airs on Saturday BTW... The Super Mario World show wasn't produced in japan tho... I don't think it even aired there... it was made in association with Nintendo of America not Nintendo of Japan. Also Mario is such a polarizing figure there that he really doesn't need a show just to give awareness to him. If you remember the Japanese olympics trailer featured mario.

    Wait, I thought Pokémon aired on Thursdays? At least, that's what Bulbapedia and Serebii seemed to indicate.

    As far as Super Mario World, I'm pretty sure that show, not to mention the Super Mario Bros. Super Show and Adventures of Super Mario Bros 3, used the Japanese games as the basis instead of the American games due to the latter versions still being localized by those time, largely due to their using the characters Japanese names rather than their localized names (eg, Bowser is King Koopa, the Koopalings have completely different names due to their essentially being nameless in the Japanese version of SMB3, and the Chargin' Chucks being referred to as "football players" instead of Chargin' Chucks").

    As you said just a few, just look at mal or anichart for the Spring season and you'll see that we only get a couple of 25 episode anime and a ton of 12 episode anime adapted from Manga's to LN's. the only anime that break 100+ mark are Shounen shows nowadays and there's only a literal handful of them (If you count those cheap animated shows like doreamon and shin chan well... those shows have thousands of episodes.) Even My Hero Acadamia a top 3 in Shounen Jumps popularity polls is only getting 25 episodes...

    Hmm... maybe that is the case. But... some of the writers current actions seem to indicate that, even taking that into account, they're being rather haphazard with the show.

    Dying... Did you know that the Pokemon Anime is the most produce anime in Japan right now? The reason for the change in art style wasn't to copy Yokai watch as so many people are adamant about. It's a change in Equipment and Software. The number of moving frames in the show is outstanding in a technical standpoint really. But lets say that you're right and it's dying as a show... Nintendo is still not going to let it die. Just like Konami and Bandia whether you like it or not... They'll keep giving Studio's the budget to produce more episodes of the anime. Unless the Pokemon game completely tanks in sales and popularity... Nintendo isn't going to end the show.

    Maybe they were trying to change equipment and software regarding the Sun and Moon series, but that still doesn't explain why they fired and replaced Hideki Sonoda for screenwriter of the movies starting with the Hoopa Movie, or their grossly cutting back on any promotions for the Volcanion movie after the Hoopa movie bombed, or their decision to include Marshadow in the upcoming movie despite the fact that there are no other Mythical Pokémon to distribute this generation once Marshadow is distributed, and all despite both Ash's Pikachu and Ho-Oh being distributable bonuses for the film, among others. In fact, that also doesn't explain the decision to make it more slapstick over the usual fare or even changing Ash's goal regarding Sun and Moon itself (ignoring the animation, BTW).

    Yep, that's what this thread is about :D

    Ohh and BTW weedle I just want to thank you for being my reason to join this community.
    The old ratings thread's were so amazingly heated that I just couldn't help but throw my hat in :D

    Ah, you're welcome.
     

    CidHazard

    just a miserable pile of secrets
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  • I thought Pokemon sun and moon aired on Saturdays... Maybe that's cause I'm used to watching the fan sub at Saturdays.

    Shaun the sheep is slowly creeping up the rankings :D
     
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    I'm pretty sure SM025 will do great since Japanese love Team rocket's episodes

    Btw the poll from the movie leaked , the poll was ""Who do you want Satoshi to travel with again?" Brock got 1st place, Serena 2nd place and Misty 3rd place. We'll see if this poll will give them ideas to bring better ratings in future seasons.
    source : https://s.animeanime.jp/article/2017/05/11/33827.html
     

    Frozocrone

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  • I'm pretty sure SM025 will do great since Japanese love Team rocket's episodes

    Btw the poll from the movie leaked , the poll was ""Who do you want Satoshi to travel with again?" Brock got 1st place, Serena 2nd place and Misty 3rd place. We'll see if this poll will give them ideas to bring better ratings in future seasons.
    source : https://s.animeanime.jp/article/2017/05/11/33827.html

    Translation from Dephender at Serebii:

    Spoiler:


    I think the ratings will come out on Monday for SM025. Seems to be a change in when ANN puts up ratings. Somewhat irritating if insignificant, now I have to remember it's on a Monday instead of a night after an episode airs in Japan.
     
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    Translation from Dephender at Serebii:

    Spoiler:


    I think the ratings will come out on Monday for SM025. Seems to be a change in when ANN puts up ratings. Somewhat irritating if insignificant, now I have to remember it's on a Monday instead of a night after an episode airs in Japan.

    Surprised they moved the ratings release, but, oh well. Wonder if that has something to do with Dragon Ball Super, since it generally airs on Sundays.

    So far as that poll, well, Misty might make it in if they take in the top three. That's good, considering they really screwed over her arc big time back in the original series when they had her leave, and would act as a good way to redeem themselves for that. Sure, it may mean having to deal with Brock again, but as long as he's decently handled this time around, I won't mind. And would be interesting to see how Misty and Serena would act towards each other, considering they are the only two female characters who had definite hints sprinkled about regarding shipping. But hey, that's assuming they do a top three or even bother to use the results of the poll. To be honest, I'm pleasantly surprised that she got as far as she did, especially considering how she had been long without an actual physical appearance since Battle Frontier, and considering the age bracket of half of the people doing the poll.
     

    CidHazard

    just a miserable pile of secrets
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  • The top 3 are the only characters I want to travel with Satoshi again... Don't know if the return of Misty and Brock (Two characters that really have been out of TV for over 5 years now) will bump up the initial ratings, as some of the fans whom want to see them back, might just watch a rerun of the show on Sat or Sun (Those people should have work or collage to worry about after all, and the Japanese are huge workaholics). Serena should still be fresh on most "new" fans minds after XY, but then again they're probably still watching Sun and Moon so I doubt her return would bump The Pokemon anime any higher than it is.

    Worst case Shaun the sheep takes Pokemon's regular space in the ratings LOL...
     
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