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ROM Hacking, Patches, and the legal consequences

Deokishisu

Mr. Magius
990
Posts
18
Years
  • We are already aware that free speech is declining throughout modding communities and reverse engineering. What could it be that is causing instability on both enterprises and the consumers? Is it the economy? Is it the legislation that has been passed through? Or could it be both? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I'm not going to point the finger at anyone, not even an enterprise, it's up to everyone to build the future they want to see.

    It's greed and corporate overreach in our governments. Corporatists get elected into office, and their constituents are suddenly surprised when their representative doesn't care about the people. Then, you have the cult of people who vote against their own interests that have been brainwashed by the media and the mass consumerist propaganda that the big corporations have been vomiting out for the last century. Corporations don't care about us. They don't have our best interests in mind. Why do we let them run our governments?
     

    Platinum Lucario

    The Legendary Master of [color=#D8D48C]Light[/colo
    1,607
    Posts
    16
    Years
  • Just to clarify, the document is filed by an Australian law firm on the behalf of Nintendo of America and Nintendo Co. Ltd. and applies Australian law because it was assumed Koolboyman was operating on that soil. Not the case.

    Nintendo Australia is not involved in this.

    Ah, I see. So Nintendo Australia wasn't involved in it.

    From my point of view, I only saw the whole C&D notice, and because I only saw "Nintendo Australia" mentioned. It only made me think that it was only Nintendo Australia that was involved. Turns out, I'm actually wrong. It was a law firm acting on behalf of Nintendo of America and Nintendo Co. Ltd.

    It all makes sense now. And since they know Australian laws well, they decide to try and warn the owner of the website with federal Australian laws, by stating that his ROM hacks are in violation with the Australian Copyright Act 1968.
     

    Cuprite (Kyu)

    Formerly TheGoldenRiolu
    128
    Posts
    7
    Years
  • I've recently started working on a rom hack called Pokemon Cuprite, but now I'm kinda scared to continue working on it. I mean, I haven't gotten much progress on it anyway, but still.
    If I do continue working on it, I guess I'm just not going to make a thread until it's close to being or is complete. Only problem with that is that it'll be hard to get feedback from people.
    I'm really not sure what to do.
     

    Crizzle

    Legend
    942
    Posts
    9
    Years
  • I've recently started working on a rom hack called Pokemon Cuprite, but now I'm kinda scared to continue working on it. I mean, I haven't gotten much progress on it anyway, but still.
    If I do continue working on it, I guess I'm just not going to make a thread until it's close to being or is complete. Only problem with that is that it'll be hard to get feedback from people.
    I'm really not sure what to do.

    You'll be fine. Not many hacks, even among great hacks, get as much hype as Prism did. Your hack will almost certainly be fine. If Nintendo wanted to come after all hacks, they would have done so a long time ago.
     

    U.Flame

    Maker of Short Games
    1,326
    Posts
    15
    Years
  • Man they really didnt need to do this. They coulda just let it go. Sure the hype was its downfall, but as people mentioned, Sega not only lets Sonic hacks exist, they practically promote them! Nintendo was in their rights, but it wasn't necessary. Im super glad it was leaked (anyone know if its the version they sent Twitch, or if its the more polished one that was meant for public?) but I really hope KBM doesn't take any heat for it. Im not going to boycott over this, and I dont think anyone really should, but I hope Nintendo takes notice and realizes these takedowns have negative repercussions that outweigh the practically nonexistent risks of letting it be.
     
    1
    Posts
    7
    Years
    • Seen Jul 14, 2022
    I'm really late to this party...

    I'm not a Rom hacker but I've spent most of my life playing pokemon rom hacks and nintendo fan games. I made a youtube video and reddit topic about this but here's what I think (note- since I"m new here I can't post links yet but I have references you can google in my post):

    Why did this happen?

    1. Ninty has problems with technological mediums that they perceive as disrupting their business model. See Nintendo v Blockbuster - The video game historian on youtube has a great vid on this - or their initial handling of Let's Plays (In fact, Nintendo's initial response to LPs might be a good illustration of how they see modding, rom hacking, or fan games)

    2. It's entirely possible that they do C&Ds not for fear of monetary loss but solely to control the style and imaging of their IPs. Google "Wreck-it Ralph Bowser's Teacup" to view an example of the level of control we might be talking about... I suppose though the reason doesn't really matter in the end

    What this could mean going forward

    1. The Big N has become more open with sharing their IPs with business partners as they've come to realize the value of their franchises as opposed to just their software or games. IMO this could mean that they'll become more draconian about defending their IPs since having fans run wild making content utilizing their IPs could dilute the perceived value of their brand. (To get a sense of what I'm talking about, look at the Yogurtland, Vans, and Universal deals made this year)

    2. My recent realization was, even if we perceive KBM's mistake with Prism was "advertising" or announcing it, with the way the Internet moves today it's getting harder and harder to keep things under wraps. Imagine some big time Youtuber discovers a kickass Nintendo fan game/rom (Markaplier or Pewdiepie... those are what the kids watch now right?) the creator has done nothing to draw attention to themselves but effectively receives a trailer in the form of a Let's Play. Should modders and hackers ask that no one ever make LPs of their games and just hide them in the basement?

    3. In a worse case scenario, it could be possible that future modders might be dissuaded after all the high profile C&Ds that happened this year and that we may ultimately see a loss of talent/good games (I think the vast majority of modders will continue business as usual while simply looking over their shoulder from time to time)

    Why Nintendo should be ashamed (even though they have every right to do this)

    1. (Final Point pt 1) Regardless of how you feel about the policy of C&D-ing, I think it's possible that this could hurt Nintendo's bottom line. Not simply in the form of boycotting fans (the market that consumes mod/fan games is likely too small for Nintendo to feel their absence) but in the form of lost opportunities and increased competition. Imagine if Nintendo hired these dedicated people to make games or borrow their ideas? I often use Toby Fox as an example when talking about this. His Undertale initially started as an Earthbound rom hack. What if Nintendo noticed Toby's work early on and invited him to work for them after seeing the EB hack (it's a phenomenal hack). He would have made Undertale for them and they would have made big bucks. This is an oversimplification, of course, but the point stands that harnessing rather than tarnishing fan engagement via rom hacking/fan games is a potentially valid strategy. Maybe not in every instance but in the case of mods/fan games like EB Holloween, AM2R, Prism, Smash Bros Project M, those mods are of outstanding quality rivaling even what Nintendo has made. Yet with many of these examples, the creators live in fear of their work because of Nintendo's (overly defensive) reaction. Nintendo could make the situation a win-win by noticing both fans' enthusiasm to specific rom hacks as well as the quality work from modders.

    2. (Final Point pt 2) By antagonizing modding and fan games, something a lot of developers don't do anymore, Nintendo could be pushing people to become real game devs. At the very minimum, people who poured their heart and soul into these projects could slap new assets and code into their work and start competing with Nintendo for money (maybe we'll see fewer mods/hacks and more cool indie games?). Going back to Toby Fox, the niche that Earthbound Holloween fills is really small because of how obscure it is. The niche that Undetale, the "non-infringing" version of the EB hack fills is essentially anyone who is an Earthbound fan. Its existence also puts a higher degree of scrutiny on any attempts Nintendo makes (or fails to make) towards developing the next Earthbound game because of how earthbound like the game is.
     
    Last edited:

    U.Flame

    Maker of Short Games
    1,326
    Posts
    15
    Years
  • It should also be mentioned that Nintendo's takedown notice was surprisingly polite. They recognized that ROM hacks are a non profit labor of love and they appreciate the sentiment, but they still feel the need to protect their copyright. I recommend reading the statement. Make of that what you may.
     

    Unown Seer

    Earnest
    179
    Posts
    14
    Years
    • Seen Dec 6, 2020
    At the end of the day, more people are going to play Prism than there would have been if it hadn't been for all the advertising. Can we really say that Koolboyman made a mistake?

    I do think he should find a way to fix some bugs, though. I doubt Nintendo cares who does the fixing as long as the patches are low-key. The only errors I've found are Yanmega's back sprite and Speed Boost not working, but they're rather annoying.
     

    Myr

    1
    Posts
    7
    Years
    • Seen Dec 28, 2016
    I'll just leave this here:
    In the US, at least, companies are under no obligation to do what Nintendo did to KBM and Prism. They just decided to do it. This myth gets dragged out everytime something like this happens, and the corporations love it because it keeps the blame off of them and the fans off their backs.

    Okay, so, full disclosure, I made an account here because I was searching on info on Prism, and I am a complete and utter butt who very much has an interest in law.

    And what you said is wrong.

    US Trademark law does very much require corporations to defend and actively pursue infringing use of their own registered trademarks, as well as actively use the ones they own, lest they lose them and become genericized, see Aspirin (Used to be a trademark owned by Beyer, lost when they let other companies use it, still own the trademark in many EU countries.)

    The article you linked was in regards to speech on the internet, not other products that were using the trademark. The First Amendment does indeed trump Trademark law, but the First Amendment does not cover commercial, or even non-profit, products.

    There is also very much a legal precedent for Nintendo, under US law, in this case, see 2013 case "Abraham v. Alpha Chi Omega" (Forbes did write an article summing the precedent up as "You snooze, you lose" because of the Laches doctrine.)

    Lastly, a nice quote from the April 2011 Report to Congress "Trademark Litigation Tactics and Federal Government Services to Protect Trademarks and Prevent Counterfeiting"

    Trademark owners have a legal right and an affirmative obligation to protect their trademark assets from misuse. If the owner does not proactively police the relevant market and enforce its rights against violators, the strength of the mark, the owner's ability to exclude others from using the same or similar marks in the marketplace, and the value of the asset all will diminish.

    Failure to take action may result in consumers being confused or deceived as to the source or sponsorship of goods or services, harm to the owner's reputation, and lost sales. A trademark owner is not required to object to all unauthorized uses that might conflict, for not every third-party use poses the same risk of eroding distinctiveness in the marketplace.

    However, widespread unauthorized uses may cause the mark to lose its trademark significance altogether and fall into the public domain. Thus, diligent enforcement of trademark rights is necessary to help prevent others from unfairly trading off the mark owner's goodwill and reputation and to protect the public from mistakenly believing that the mark owner authorizes, endorses, sponsors, or is somehow affiliated with another business.
     

    sonic65101

    Johto Champion
    98
    Posts
    10
    Years
  • Personally, I think ROM hacks are sorta in a gray area of legality, not totally legal, but not totally illegal either. Personally, I think the reason behind Nintendo's cease and desist was that the video was posted with Twitch.
     

    Lunos

    Random Uruguayan User
    3,114
    Posts
    15
    Years
  • At the end of the day, more people are going to play Prism than there would have been if it hadn't been for all the advertising. Can we really say that Koolboyman made a mistake?

    I do think he should find a way to fix some bugs, though. I doubt Nintendo cares who does the fixing as long as the patches are low-key. The only errors I've found are Yanmega's back sprite and Speed Boost not working, but they're rather annoying.

    Just for the record, I've heard of a lot of silly mistakes, like Exegcute evolving through a Fire Stone instead of a Leaf Stone or Sylveon being unlinked as an evolution of Eevee, these kind of things are actually being fixed in 4Chan's /vp/ board, or that's what I saw.
     
    23
    Posts
    8
    Years
    • Seen Apr 4, 2018
    Nintendo issues on making fan game.

    Hello! I am working on a fan made Pokemon game using RPG maker XP and some people telling me that it will be against nintendo's copyright issues and they might shut it down just like they did to Pokemon Uranium and Pokemon Prism. I am working on a game using Pokemon essentials kit putting all the credits on it and putting all gen 6 pokemons with no fakemons. So is there any problem with it? I mean, will it will be against copyright issues of not.
     

    SpartaLazor

    Doofus Lunarius
    184
    Posts
    8
    Years
  • Is it against the copyright to make a fan-game? Yup. All fan-games are going against the copyright by using Nintendo's property without permission. Will yours get shut down? Probably not.

    It's rare that a shut-down happens (at least to my knowledge), and the reasoning as to why they get shut down is usually unknown, or at least, there's probably more to it than we'd know.

    You'll likely be okay, just don't make any money off of it, and understand that Nintendo can shut you down. Like I said, I doubt it will happen, but just keep that in mind.
     

    rigbycwts

    Hmm, hmm.
    98
    Posts
    11
    Years
    • Seen Feb 22, 2019
    It's rare that a shut-down happens (at least to my knowledge), and the reasoning as to why they get shut down is usually unknown, or at least, there's probably more to it than we'd know.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I guess online features such as battling can be one reason why fangames get shut down. IIRC Uranium happens to have a working PvP. Just my theory though.
     

    Derxwna Kapsyla

    Derxwna "The Badman" Kapsyla
    437
    Posts
    12
    Years
  • What we can deduce is, if a fangame gets popular enough, and promoted via Internet News Outlets, or has a trailer made that gets lots of views, it's more than likely to sink a fork into the project. Small-Time Projects are less-likely to be noticed.
     
    8
    Posts
    11
    Years
    • Seen Aug 30, 2018
    i think it isnt so much an Copyright then an Trademark issue.
    Unlike with the Copyright nintendo has to defend there Trademark much more ferious otherwise they will lose it.
     

    SpartaLazor

    Doofus Lunarius
    184
    Posts
    8
    Years
  • Correct me if I'm wrong, but I guess online features such as battling can be one reason why fangames get shut down. IIRC Uranium happens to have a working PvP. Just my theory though.

    I wouldn't think so - Insurgence has online features but is still up and kicking. I honestly don't think anyone outside of Nintendo really knows the entire truth to every take-down. Most people say that take-downs occur because Nintendo is trying to protect their copyright. Which I think there's some truth in that, but I think there's still more to it than that. After all, they don't just take down every single fan-game, nor do they seem to target the starter kits. So unless Nintendo every actually tells us why a game was taken down, then I doubt we'll ever really know the truth.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: FL
    824
    Posts
    8
    Years
  • My running theory is it has to do with when the game comes out.

    Uranium came out too close to Pokemon GO (and got promoted by news outlets because Pokemon was click-worthy and it was a big thing).

    Prism was planning a release too close to Pokemon Sun and Moon, and likely got a lot of clicks because the name "Prism" made it look official since Necrozma, the third legendary from SuMo, is the Prism Pokemon.

    So when you want to release your game, pay attention to the official releases, and be sure you don't get too much attention accidentally.
     
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