Smogon and the Pokemon Metagame

Cordova.Erick said:
We're Getting Nowhere With This Debate . Besides , Those Moves That Never Miss , Their Power Is About 60 & Of Course The Accuracy Is Always Landing . But You Can Also Use Your Abilities To Do More Damage Or Use Moves Like Swords Dance For The Shadow Punch . STAB Moves Work As Well .
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Sure you can, but if you're using stuff like Swords Dance in battle, wouldn't it be more tempting to go for that +2 Return than that +2 Swift? It's like the ever-debatable decision between Hydro Pump or Surf, power vs accuracy. Smogon banned evasion BECAUSE they don't want a battle to turn into a luckfest. Evasion is almost non-existent in VGC BECAUSE using up a turn on evasion puts you at deadly risk for a preventable KO.
 
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZSapv3JHbU[/ame]

This is a VGC match. Some people call this "cheap win" or whatever but I personally think this is a good battle. There's nothing wrong with it, others called it "gamey tactic" supposedly doesn't show skill? Well, what do you think? There's no Smogon rules in here, most people that play by Smogon rules are adults like about in their twenties or so. Smogon is different than VGC & that's that. I'm Not Just Talking about Smogon OU Tier but also every tier & their rules. I would stay in Smogon because it shows me some ways to play because I was a begginner, but now that I know & rely on myself, I can do it on my own. Maybe we can play by Smogon rules but don't be copying the samples that Smogon has for the pokemon. USE your imagination, be creative. Otherwise, people will guess your strategy easily & will get by you fast. & I guess i'm trying to write most of the things in lower caps. :P
 
Oh, this guy. This guy's the one who set off the last massive VGC versus Smogon firestorm. If this really is at Regionals, I wonder how he placed. Considering his opponent used Umbreon, Archeops, and Luxray, I'd be hesitant to say that his opponent is any good. Anyhow, this strategy would likely fail if it was used in today's meta. This is a 2012 VGC video, if I'm right. The game's changed drastically since then.

Also, one thing. TAUNT ruins his team. Just one move ruins an entire team. One extremely common move.
 
Ma'am, I understand about the meta-game being different now, but something like that can be done again, just differently. Always expect the unexpected. It's like Pokemon, don't over predict or get over confident, things like can get you off track of your objective.
 
Griffinbane said:
Anyhow, this strategy would likely fail if it was used in today's meta.
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That strategy should always fail, lol. It's awful.

Anyways, I'm failing to understand the point of this argument. D: Sounds like someone just wants people to admit VGC > Smogon? Which is totally not true, by the way. Especially when you consider Smogon has both a Doubles ladder AND a VGC ladder - both of which are filled with people who go to VGC tourneys. 0.o

Isn't Verlisify some huge troll, too? xD The name sounds familiar, and not in a good way.
 
Thanks for reconsidering your styple of writing, it makes your points come across less clunky.

Your arguments still need a bit work, though. Nobody here would call that a 'cheap win'. In fact, there are only two end states in competitive gaming - winning and loosing. If a tactics is proven superior , it simply becomes the center of the metagame and players will act according to that.
The reason why this kind of tactic is not established is because it cannot compete in the current (now past) metagame and we also wouldn't call that a example because the opponent's team is not well constructed. The opponent failed anticipate Drifblim using a status move and instead of using a fast taunt or super-effective snipe the hit it with a payback coming from 65 base attack - in the VGC metagaming you actually would expect Drifblim to either WoW or to use Gem Acrobatics and Thundurus, who is basically everywhere has both priority Taunt and a resistance to Flying, so the result would be the same.

We would be a bit careful with this youtuber because his OPs have a rather mixed competitive value, as they sometimes lack practice value or are stacked towards his favour like this example. Also, he is known to run the bias streamroller over Smogon like similarly to you, just in order to net cheap views. It would at least explain where your mindset came from.
 
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Onicon said:
Thanks for reconsidering your styple of writing, it makes your points come across less clunky.

Your arguments still need a bit work, though. Nobody here would call that a 'cheap win'. In fact, there are only two end states in competitive gaming - winning and loosing. If a tactics is proven superior , it simply becomes the center of the metagame and players will act according to that.
The reason why this kind of tactic is not established is because it cannot compete in the current (now past) metagame and we also wouldn't call that a example because the opponent's team is not well constructed. The opponent failed anticipate Drifblim using a status move and instead of using a fast taunt or super-effective snipe the hit it with a payback coming from 65 base attack - in the VGC metagaming you actually would expect Drifblim to either WoW or to use Gem Acrobatics and Thundurus, who is basically everywhere has both priority Taunt and a resistance to Flying, so the result would be the same.

We would be a bit careful with this youtuber because his OPs have a rather mixed competitive value, as they sometimes lack practice value or are stacked towards his favour like this example. Also, he is known to run the bias streamroller over Smogon like similarly to you, just in order to net cheap views. It would at least explain where your mindset came from.
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The thing is not that i really hate Smogon; is that Smogon got people battling in a way including in big tournaments world wide where people don't come up with their own ideas, but smogon does. Some players get mad, others argue, etc. I would just use Smogon outside a competition for battling with friends or whatever & not copy the same move sets that smogon have. Maybe come up with my own ideas..
 
I don't know about TROLL, but I do know that on NB, any mention of him tends to be singed by sarcasm from experienced players and worshipful by new players. That tells me, at least, that he's doing a good job getting new players into VGC but his strategies and playstyle are iffy at best and downright bad or purposely stacked in his favor at worst. Bit like that video linked. I mean, WHO uses Umbreon, Luxray, and Archeops competitively?
 
Griffinbane said:
I don't know about TROLL, but I do know that on NB, any mention of him tends to be singed by sarcasm from experienced players and worshipful by new players. That tells me, at least, that he's doing a good job getting new players into VGC but his strategies and playstyle are iffy at best and downright bad or purposely stacked in his favor at worst. Bit like that video linked. I mean, WHO uses Umbreon, Luxray, and Archeops competitively?
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Actually, Luxray is one of my favorite Pokemon & I'm still trying to figure out a way to be with me in a competitive battle. It's hard, but I'm still at it. I just know that there has to be a way to make Luxray stand out in a battle.
 
Now we aren't sure if we understand you correctly anymore, but we'll give it a shot: In other words, did you say that Smogon caused the creativity of the people everywhere but on Smogon to stagnate? Correct us if we are wrong.

We'll let this opinion stay but remember that the primary goal of a competitive gamer, no matter whether Smogon or VGC, is winning, preferably in the most effective fashion possible. For someone who approaches the game with this mindset, creativity has only so much room that makes him winning more easily. Do not forget that there is a limited number of possible Pokemon and movepool combination and an even more limited number of viable options. Just using non-standard Pokemon and movesets and claiming that that is creativity is - to put it in the most brutally honest way - lazy. Real creativity can be subtle, but it is definitely there; creating a non-standard set that can compete with established powerhouses is difficult but beautiful when the hard work comes to fruition.
You might want to take a look that Smogon's Creative / Underrated Sets Thread (yes, they actually support creativity if you can win with it). This one is for Smogon OU, but should give you good insight in what is considered smart. Just watch the approvals in order to sort out the good from the bad.

Off topic: There is not much walling in VGC, so there is less need for a dedicated wallbreaker. Luxrays strengths are Intimidate support and sniping with Quick Attack but then why not using Arcanine with Extreme Speed?
 
Onicon said:
Now we aren't sure if we understand you correctly anymore, but we'll give it a shot: In other words, did you say that Smogon caused the creativity of the people everywhere but on Smogon to stagnate? Correct us if we are wrong.

We'll let this opinion stay but remember that the primary goal of a competitive gamer, no matter whether Smogon or VGC, is winning, preferably in the most effective fashion possible. For someone who approaches the game with this mindset, creativity has only so much room that makes him winning more easily. Do not forget that there is a limited number of possible Pokemon and movepool combination and an even more limited number of viable options. Just using non-standard Pokemon and movesets and claiming that that is creativity is - to put it in the most brutally honest way - lazy. Real creativity can be subtle, but it is definitely there; creating a non-standard set that can compete with established powerhouses is difficult but beautiful when the hard work comes to fruition.
You might want to take a look that Smogon's Creative / Underrated Sets Thread (yes, they actually support creativity if you can win with it). This one is for Smogon OU, but should give you good insight in what is considered smart. Just watch the approvals in order to sort out the good from the bad.

Off topic: There is not much walling in VGC, so there is less need for a dedicated wallbreaker. Luxrays strengths are Intimidate support and sniping with Quick Attack but then why not using Arcanine with Extreme Speed?
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The reason I choose Luxray over Arcanine is because Luxray is one of my favs. Pokemon. Yea, I can say Arcanine as well, but not as much. But don't you think is fun battling with your favorite Pokemon instead of those common used Pokemon? You can make any Pokemon play any role you want even if it's not made for that but you can still pull it off without being gimmicky.
 
Cordova.Erick said:
The thing is not that i really hate Smogon; is that Smogon got people battling in a way including in big tournaments world wide where people don't come up with their own ideas, but smogon does. Some players get mad, others argue, etc. I would just use Smogon outside a competition for battling with friends or whatever & not copy the same move sets that smogon have. Maybe come up with my own ideas..
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Cordova.Erick said:
The reason I choose Luxray over Arcanine is because Luxray is one of my favs. Pokemon. Yea, I can say Arcanine as well, but not as much. But don't you think is fun battling with your favorite Pokemon instead of those common used Pokemon? You can make any Pokemon play any role you want even if it's not made for that but you can still pull it off without being gimmicky.
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Smogon doesn't force anyone to battle a certain way. They just say that after extensive testing and number-crunching, that these are some of the most effective ways to battle/use a certain Pokemon that they have found. You don't have to use Pokemon how Smogon says or only use certain Pokemon. A Smogonite is not going to come to your house and waterboard you for using Gorebyss in OU or using Staraptor as a tank. People just tend to follow what Smogon says because they almost always have sound reasoning behind their stuff.

And nobody is telling you that you can't use a certain poke or that you can't use one in a certain way; they're telling you that your chances of winning are rather low if you use certain pokes or in a certain way. You can use any Pokemon you want except Funbro, if you use Funbro I will roast you with mah dragon fire however you want, just don't expect amazing results (unless you happen to be the next guy who came up with CroCune).
 
Lol you can try to roast Funbro with your dragon fire but he will simply laugh at your tactics to bring him down. Funbro is Pokégod.

Want to have fun in VGC/Doubles? Funbro/Funking. You're welcome. While you're at it, make them Shiny.
 
If you think about it, Smogon does make you battle a certain way if you play by theit rules since most people play in favor for Smogon .
 
Cordova.Erick said:
If you think about it, Smogon does make you battle a certain way if you play by theit rules since most people play in favor for Smogon .
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*sigh*
Yes, you have to play by Smogon's rules if you choose to play in places that abide by Smogon's rules. If you choose to live in a certain country, you have to abide by that country's laws. And like I've been saying this whole time, you don't have to choose to play by Smogon's rules. Many people choose to play by Smogon's rules because they feel that Smogon has come up with a rule-set that makes Pokemon battles the most competitive/fun. But no place enforces Smogon's rules besides Showdown and tournaments/battles hosted by Smogon, or unless the 2 players involved agree to use Smogon's rules beforehand. There is zero reason to follow Smogon's rules outside of those things.
 
Does this not qualify as trolling yet?

How many times can someone's argument evolve into something different, when the last one breaks down, until the argument is OP and we ban it to the ubers tier of arguments?
 
Playing by Smogon's rules is optional though a lot of people follow them.

These rules are out there to avoid OP Pokemon and cheap ways to win, allowing the game to be fair for everyone.

I personally agree with all of Smogon's rules because to me, Pokemon battling is more about skill and not grabbing a Mewtwo to attack everyone with because unless someone has a counter to said Mewtwo (for example), anyone can win with it or another strong Pokemon. It takes little skill to do so.
 
No Chance Without Zekrom said:
Something we can add to this discussion: Smogon has recently announced that they are going to conduct a suspect test on Swagger+Prankster.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ic-definition-of-uncompetitive-in-op.3500620/

What do you all think about this?
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I'm kinda on the fence about this. What makes something ban-worthy? Personally I think Liepard and Togekiss are annoying as hell for SwagPlay and ParaFlinch, as they do make things luck based. But on the other hand, from what I've seen, they aren't the most used strategies. I think the process of banning things in part starts off with something exceeding "over used". I guess I don't do much in terms of online battling, but I do know these strategies aren't the most consistent, which is why they don't appear on every team.
 
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