The general competitive standard: Rules

[aragornbird]

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Remove the tier list please. Neoseeker is not a good source for Pokemon competitive battling. NO ONE can make a tier list yet. The game hasn't even been out for 3 months and it takes much longer than that for the metagame to settle the to point where real tiers can be constructed without a lot of shifting.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

 

[Nightofshadow]

Alright my apologies. I will remove it now

 

[Hinamori_Momo]

the sleep clause is really really annoying! it should be removed because putting pokemon to sleep and destroying them is a legit strategy, plus its fun to watch pplsz switch, then I put THEM to sleep. It causes frustration wich will hinder trainers rational thoughts and thy'll go all out and not think about stategy

i agree. if the opponents temporarily lose their ability of rational thinking they would forget their thoughts on a strategy and just attack wildly, causing them to virtually give in to your strategy.

 

[Abby3563663]

Which I think is completely ridiculous. If people have gone through alot of trouble to obtain Celebi, for example, and it isn't overpowered in any way, then I think they should have full rights to use those Pokémon. Hackers are another case, but I personally don't care if a Pokémon is hacked as long as it hasn't been caught in a hacked Master Ball and doesn't have hacked stats. And you said all of the 600 base stat Pokémon excluding Manaphy are hard to obtain with legitimate methods, which isn't entirely true. Jirachi is fairly easy to obtain as well as it can be obtained both from the European version of Pokémon Channel and the Pokémon Colosseum bonus disc, the latter which, from what I've heard, has an infinite supply of Jirachi.

I think people (I'm not directing this at you, in case it seems like that.) should wake up and smell the coffee and realize that if certain Pokémon are to be banned because they're one of a kind or extremely rare and most importantly, supposedly ''too powerful'' then by the same logic Garchomp, Dragonite, Tyranitar etc. should also be banned in standard play because they belong in the same base stat group (600 total) and some of them are stronger than, for example Shaymin, that I'm sure everyone will ban even after it can be obtained legitimately.

Mm, I'm not sure how I feel about it. The decision would be a lot easier if Nintendo didn't lock up so many Pokemon and refuse to release them to people who don't live in New York. I don't think that most of them are too powerful though, with the exception of Mew. Nasty Plot, Swords Dances, and the option to pass either of those is pretty broken. I don't personally mind facing the rest of them.

As for sleep clause, I think it's important. Allowing multiple sleeping Pokemon changes the entire game to compensate for Pokemon like Crobat, who can outspeed almost everything and render it useless for sometimes three turns. True, it is possible to wake up quickly, but it makes the game a lot less enjoyable when all you're doing is combating sleep. That's the point of clauses—to remove the elements of the game which are so overpowered that they're the only viable strategy. The game isn't fun when there's only one way to play it.

 

[Ash's Pika Pal]

For hex items does that include lagging tail? And, for evasion clause does that include flash/sand attack?

 

[☼Charlie☼]

the sleep clause is really really annoying! it should be removed because putting pokemon to sleep and destroying them is a legit strategy, plus its fun to watch pplsz switch, then I put THEM to sleep. It causes frustration wich will hinder trainers rational thoughts and thy'll go all out and not think about stategy

While I do agree putting your opponent's pokemon to sleep is a good strategy, it doesn't matter what we think. This thread is just about stating the rules, not arguing if they are fair or not.

 

[Abby3563663]

For hex items does that include lagging tail? And, for evasion clause does that include flash/sand attack?

I think that "hax" items are mostly those that cause luck to play a role in the battle to a greater degree, such as the Quick Claw, Lax Incense, and so on. The Lagging Tail just slows down the holder, right? I don't see why that would be included, even if it's Tricked. As for Flash and Sand Attack, I'm not sure. The problem with evasion is that, once it's set up, the user is more or less invincible and has no reason to switch out. With accuracy reduction, you always have the option of switching out, even if it's not favorable to do so. I'm not sure what the consensus is. ^_^;

 

[sims796]

I think that "hax" items are mostly those that cause luck to play a role in the battle to a greater degree, such as the Quick Claw, Lax Incense, and so on. The Lagging Tail just slows down the holder, right? I don't see why that would be included, even if it's Tricked. As for Flash and Sand Attack, I'm not sure. The problem with evasion is that, once it's set up, the user is more or less invincible and has no reason to switch out. With accuracy reduction, you always have the option of switching out, even if it's not favorable to do so. I'm not sure what the consensus is. ^_^;

I think I get it now. If someone is able to Double Team enough, they would virtually untouchable. Hence why it's banned.
Still, how can you even allow someone to Double Team 6 times? One is enough before I take you out. Then again Shuckle would be invincible

 

[Abby3563663]

I think I get it now. If someone is able to Double Team enough, they would virtually untouchable. Hence why it's banned.
Still, how can you even allow someone to Double Team 6 times? One is enough before I take you out. Then again Shuckle would be invincible

Sometimes there's nothing you can do about it. Once they've done one Double Team, it's possible that they could evade all future attacks as they double team; in fact, it becomes more likely that they will with each successive Double Team. Further, some Pokemon can use Taunt to prevent psuedo/hazing.

 

[Ash's Pika Pal]

Ok, thanks.

I'm confused about a few more things though. I know you said about the no legendary rule, but what if something is stronger than that legendary? For example, I see Tyranitar in some teams, but since Celebi is legendary it can't be used. I'm confused about this rule since Tyranitar is stronger and has less weaknesses than Celebi.

Also, does that mean legendaries are not allowed period or only if the player/s say so?

 

[Nightofshadow]

Ok, thanks.

I'm confused about a few more things though. I know you said about the no legendary rule, but what if something is stronger than that legendary? For example, I see Tyranitar in some teams, but since Celebi is legendary it can't be used. I'm confused about this rule since Tyranitar is stronger and has less weaknesses than Celebi.

Also, does that mean legendaries are not allowed period or only if the player/s say so?

Well most people generally have an issue with legendaries. The bulk of legendaries arent so much an issue but some of them such as the 3birds.

 

[aragornbird]

Ok, thanks.

I'm confused about a few more things though. I know you said about the no legendary rule, but what if something is stronger than that legendary? For example, I see Tyranitar in some teams, but since Celebi is legendary it can't be used. I'm confused about this rule since Tyranitar is stronger and has less weaknesses than Celebi.

Also, does that mean legendaries are not allowed period or only if the player/s say so?

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Tyranitar certainly has been more godly than back in Advance. But not everyone bans Celebi...at least not the experienced trainers. And the only reason Celebi isn't on a lot of teams is because Celebi is rare and one with good Nature/IVs is even rarer.

If you ask me, most people on PC seem to ban all legends because they don't have enough competitive battling experience and think that legends are superior to normal Pokemon and therefore, must be banned.

When in reality, the only Pokemon that should be banned from standard play are the ubers on that list. The rest of the legends are far less threatening than many non-legends like Salamence, Tyranitar, and Rhyperior.

* The legendary birds all have Stealth Rock weaknesses (Articuno and Moltres have 4x Stealth Rock weak, which means they'll lose half of their health when they switch in).

* The legendary dogs/cats all have limited movepools, so they really don't have much to choose from in terms of attacking moves (especially poor poor Entei).

* The Regis aren't as great as they were in Advance. Their main job is defense, but the stronger new moves in D/P means they can't do their job as well anymore.
Also, Regigigas's Slow Start ability basically makes it suck.

*Speaking of defense, that's the main job of Uxie and Cresselia. They're great at taking hits, but they can't do much damage. Also, Dark types got much better in D/P, so even those two need to watch out.

*Mesprit has nice, balanced stats, but they aren't that impressive.

*Phione has crap stats. 'Nuff said.

*Heatran is pretty good, but it has low speed and a bunch of weaknesses

*Celebi is still good, but now it's afraid of the newer, better Dark and Bug moves in D/P.
Shaymin is just a lesser Celebi and can't even do that much.

*Jirachi is still good too, but it can't take down teams without a lot of setting up. It's offensive stats just aren't anything amazing.

The only legends that would actually pose a problem for many teams is Azelf and Manaphy, and this is mainly because they have access to a Special Swords Dance (Nasty Plot for Azelf and Tail Glow for Manaphy). This single move gives these two little legends a chance to beat even Blissey, the best special wall in the game.

Fortunately, Azelf has crappy defenses and a good Manaphy is very hard to find.

Basically, non-uber legends aren't really all they're cracked up to be. In fact, many of the old legends are even WORSE than they were in Advance. Unfortunately, D/P is full of people who have never been in a competitive battle before and it will take a while before they can realize all the things I pointed out above.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

 

[Ichida]

I think I get it now. If someone is able to Double Team enough, they would virtually untouchable. Hence why it's banned.
Still, how can you even allow someone to Double Team 6 times? One is enough before I take you out. Then again Shuckle would be invincible

Two words: Aerial Ace. I don't see why everyone is so uptight about Double Team. There are lots of moves that do the same thing Aerial Ace does. Aura Sphere, Swift, Faint Attack, the list goes on.

If you ask me, most people on PC seem to ban all legends because they don't have enough competitive battling experience and think that legends are superior to normal Pokemon and therefore, must be banned.

My response. Everyone who knows me knows damn well I'm competitive.

 

[Abby3563663]

Two words: Aerial Ace. I don't see why everyone is so uptight about Double Team. There are lots of moves that do the same thing Aerial Ace does. Aura Sphere, Swift, Faint Attack, the list goes on.



My response. Everyone who knows me knows damn well I'm competitive.

If you've read the thread, you'd see that those arguments have been shot down pretty quickly. To rely on (mostly) weak, no-effect moves is ridiculous. It narrows the depth of the game significantly.

Besides, even if you had one, two, or three of those moves, any Pokemon can Double Team—if my Cresselia started DTing and you didn't have a never-miss move that was super effective, you'd lose as I Rested off the damage and continued to make myself invincible. Even if you had a super-effective move, that'd be fine; I'd just switch into something that resisted it and begin to build up my invincibility. Double Team breaks the game and artificially imposes shallow, boring strategies upon the game. The problem lies in the fact that any Pokemon can learn the move. There's no one way to deal with DT because it's so ubiquitous.

As for your legendary argument, it's facetious. Just because you beat a single person who used legendaries proves nothing. In fact, the type of hacker you faced is exactly the kind of poor player who is easy to beat regardless of what they have. If you faced someone who was truly just as skilled as you and had all ubers, you would lose. I personally don't have a problem with what we consider legendary Pokemon, just "ubers." And even then, they have their own metagame, their own tier, just as UU does.

 

[Ichida]

Ask yourselves: would you rather hit every time with a weak move, or miss every time with a powerful move? At least with the surefire moves you can drill away at them until they finally die. I've won battles that way in the past.

 

[Abby3563663]

The problem with that is that it only works if they have Double Team. Your weak Aerial Ace will do far too little damage to keep up with the powerful moves your opponents will be using. Most of which will hit every time unless you yourself are using Double Team. A barrage of weak hits has no chance if a Scarf Rampardos comes in and Head Smashes you into oblivion. o_o;

 

[Ichida]

I have an Aerial Ace user on my team anyways, so I'm covered. Lots of good, competitive Pokemon use Aerial Ace.

And to Rampardos, I present the Focus Sashed *insert name of any good special sweeper*.

So when the hell are the new tiers gonna be posted? I'm anxious.

 

[Nightofshadow]

I have an Aerial Ace user on my team anyways, so I'm covered. Lots of good, competitive Pokemon use Aerial Ace.

And to Rampardos, I present the Focus Sashed *insert name of any good special sweeper*.

So when the hell are the new tiers gonna be posted? I'm anxious.

In regards to tiers: Not a few months really. Too early to judge now.

 

[Richard Lynch]

Ask yourselves: would you rather hit every time with a weak move, or miss every time with a powerful move? At least with the surefire moves you can drill away at them until they finally die. I've won battles that way in the past.

Of course, that all depends on what kind of Pokemon is using the move... really bulky Pokemon can use weaker/more accurate moves without a problem, but someone like Alakazam has to take a risk sometimes with Focus Blast, because he doesn't have the Defense to do "less damage". That's one of the few things I really do not like about Pokemon battles: a certain amount of how you win is based on luck.

 

[Legacy]

Ask yourselves: would you rather hit every time with a weak move, or miss every time with a powerful move? At least with the surefire moves you can drill away at them until they finally die. I've won battles that way in the past.

But what if the Double Teaming Pokémon has good defenses and a HP recovery move? You could spend four or five turns hitting them with Aerial Ace, only to have them Recover/Roost/Moonlight/Synthesis/Rest etc to near full health again. They could very easily stall you out of PP. And while you're doing petty damage with a weak move, they're slowly wearing down your Pokémon in between recoveries, safe in the knowledge that if you switch out, they're gonna have a massive problem hitting you with any non-100% accurate attack.

Of course, that all depends on what kind of Pokemon is using the move... really bulky Pokemon can use weaker/more accurate moves without a problem, but someone like Alakazam has to take a risk sometimes with Focus Blast, because he doesn't have the Defense to do "less damage". That's one of the few things I really do not like about Pokemon battles: a certain amount of how you win is based on luck.

Quite a lot of battles are won through luck. I've lost count of the number of battles I've been where one person was quite clearly in control only for the other person to get a critical hit or freeze your Pokémon with Ice Beam and then take the advantage.

And is it just me, or does any attack with less than 85% accuracy miss more than it hits? I was in a battle not long ago where I missed three Hypnosis' and two Focus Blasts in a row, and later on in that same game I missed two simultaneous Air Slashes (at 95% accuracy).

I know that last part is offtopic, but it just peeves me.