The Lando-I suspect test (Update: it's been banned from OU)

[Nah]

So it was just put up on the Smogon forums that Landorus-Incarnate is going to be suspect tested now. A lot of people were calling to have it get tested iirc and it'll be interesting to see what happens here after Mega Metagross was not banned and Aegislash was not unbanned.

Whatcha all think?

 

[srinator]

tbh i think it quite broken, but i really need to ladder a fair share to comment on it properly.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

Lando should probably be banned, since it puts a lot of pressure on all the common strategies (balance, stall, offense). CM + RP + mixed LO is a bit too much imo. However, the emotive part of me wants it to stay in OU because it will go to shit in Ubers.

 

[Detox]

It'll probably be a bandwagon ban.

 

[Sirfetch’d]

I'd rather see Goth who is a pile of aids and mega Gardy tested or Megagross retested but I am happy for this as well. Lando-I does have a case for a ban. This should be a really close vote though imo. Interested to see which way it sways.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Good. This shit needed suspect testing along time ago. "Free, no drawback or recoil, more powerful than specs hits and the ability to pick its own counters (have fun packing your team with things that beat ALL CM, Rock Polish, Sludge Wave, HP Ice etc). Jee sounds fair" :| Hope it gets banned. I dont see how this thing benefits OU at all.

Now for Gothicancer, like 90% of mega syphilis mons, Knock Bullshit and Scald Ebola suspects and bans and then we might be getting somewhere and something resembling a playable non HIV infested metagame.

 

[Anti]

I think Landorus is clearly a worthy suspect. It has advantages that other breakers simply do not: Manaphy has no immediate power whatsoever, Mega Gardevoir takes up a mega slot, and Gengar wears itself very quickly. Landorus has immediate power, diverse set-up options, doesn't take up a mega slot, isn't choice-locked, etc. It's a notch above the Pokémon I mentioned above for those reasons.

That being said, this Pokémon's reputation has started to exceed its actual performance, in my opinion. Any set lacking Rock Polish is pressured a ton by faster teams. In this matchup, it is further hampered by how, in the same way that Aegislash's Shadow Ball is spammable, Earth Power is ridiculously unspammable. Yes, prediction goes both ways, but this is about consistency, and consistency matters. Everyone is weak to Mega Gardevoir on paper too, but it too can be played around. It also provides VERY limited defensive utility beyond sponging choice-locked Volt Switches. In a meta that can be as restrictive as ORAS is in team-building, this can be a liability.

"But Rock Polish." If it runs Rock Polish, it yields tremendous wall-breaking capacity--every three-move combination has a major inadequacy--and I don't think RP Lando is even remotely as threatening to offense as SD Sand Rush Excadrill or RP Mega Diancie/Mega Metagross. Its versatility is annoying, but you aren't dealing with Mega Charizard. Posts like James' emphasize how Landorus picks its counters and its advantageous matchups, but I find the inverse to be equally true: the metagame dictates how effective Landorus is, much like Mega Pinsir in XY. I don't think it's a coincidence that a bulkier metagame that has adapted to the presence of Pokémon like Mega Metagross, Mega Diancie, and Mega Altaria suddenly has trouble dealing with the best punisher of passivity in the tier.

For all the drawbacks Landorus can bring to team-building and for how match-up based its individual sets can be, its good matchups are freaking good and passive teams can really struggle against it, and usually do. I've always kind of hated Landorus' presence in the metagame for this reason.

If I had to vote, I would probably say no ban. I don't think Landorus is healthy for the metagame, but I also don't think it's broken...maybe. I don't have great reasoning for you--it's just an "eye test" thing. My vote might change when I hop on the suspect ladder, and I should have time to get reqs this time.

Also, what Syn said is 100% right. Not that it means that a ban would be wrong (see: Mega Mawile), but it's not like Landorus has changed at all since, well, the beginning of XY. (Of course, the metagame has, but I wonder if the potential inability of the metagame to adapt has more to do with the external force of the new megas than it does Landorus, as XY adapted pretty well to Landorus...)

 

[Pendraflare]

This suspect is nothing to surprise me. Landorus is pretty overused, but I would imagine the Therian form is worse due to Intimidate and greater Attack (even if the Speed isn't as high).

 

[Sirfetch’d]

This suspect is nothing to surprise me. Landorus is pretty overused, but I would imagine the Therian form is worse due to Intimidate and greater Attack (even if the Speed isn't as high).

Lando T is fine tbh. It isn't THAT much of a threat and is easily played around. Lando I however can abuse Sheer Force and LO with an already broad moveset. It's a very hard Pokemon to play around in all honesty.

 

[Detox]

Landorus-Therian is just a decent glue mon, an average scarfer, and sometimes a decent double dance user. Anyways, I'd probably abstain from voting on this if I did get reqs, so I probably won't bother with laddering. Landorus-I is a very good Pokémon, but I think people really blow it out of proportion like…75% of the time.

 

[rob_thijs]

Was Landorus-I not in Ubers when Black and White was still around or am I wrong? Why did he come back to OU, was it because XY had more balance and now with ORAS with all the move tutors he became to strong like Greninja?

In my opinion I must say it's strong yes, I was completely shocked when I first encoutered one and it fired 4 different types off moves at me and I did not expect some types. But as with all pokémon you just need to work around it. A fast pokémon with an Ice type move wrecks this pokémons face, and given how fast the meta is don't give me bull like: it's retarded I need at least one pokémon with more than 101 speed.

Some pokémon like Aegislash deserve to be banned but with this one (almost the same story as Greninja though) don't need a ban. Just smart plays, some scouting and keeping your head cool against this pokemon is enough to defeat it.

 

[Nah]

Lando-T is a good 'mon, but since it's so common the meta has sorta kinda adapted to it, and it's a little predictable since 9 out of ten times it's running either a Scarf set or a defensive Leftovers set. Double Dance is rare in my experience. And while EdgeQuake+Knock Off is good coverage, Lando-I has generally better coverage and also doesn't mind a burn as much.

Was Landorus-I not in Ubers when Black and White was still around or am I wrong? Why did he come back to OU, was it because XY had more balance and now with ORAS with all the move tutors he became to strong like Greninja?

Yeah, it was Ubers in Gen V. So was Thundurus-I iirc. I don't know what exactly the reasoning is behind the unbanning of certain pokes at the start of a new gen other than *metagame changes* though. But Excadrill was also banned to Ubers in the Gen V since Sand Rush Excadrill was fuckin' insane in that meta, but with perma weather no longer being a thing and all the megas and other stuff I'm probably forgetting it's not ban-worthy anymore.



But anyway, idk if Landorus-I should be banned from OU or not (but when do I ever know lol). I'm more interested in the results. Mega Meta's and Aegislash's tests didn't go the way people generally thought they would, so I'm curious to see how this one goes.

 

[Dark Azelf]

The reason Lando-I has been getting attention recently as being busted as it can tailor its set to slaughter any playstyle.

In early XY, it only ran one moveset and that was Knock Off/Earth Power/Psychic/Focus Blast and served as a breaker. Beats most Gliscorless/Cressless/Celebiless <insert niche poke> stall pretty easily, there were a few shouts for it being broken but such claims as "lol its easy to revenge kill tho and check cos its slow" etc.

In mid xy and early oras, the next set came along which people started using and that was Calm Mind/Focus Blast or Psychic/Earth Power/Sludge Wave. People figured they didnt need Knock and would prefer things like Sludge Wave to run the gauntlet on Lati@s, Celebi whilst CM also busts open previous counters like Gliscor etc this set also decimates bulky offense. Again "its slow so its easy to revenge kill here". Notice a trend to how warped the metagame is in regards to dealing with things? Well you should.

Fast forward a few months, people figured "hey this crap is p easy to revenge kill and offense is very common and Lando doesnt really need CM to break most teams" so the next set people innovated was Rock Polish/Earth Power/Psychic/Sludge Wave. This absolutely crushes most offensive builds and forces you to revenge kill it with things like Azumarril because your cute little scarfers cant touch it now, oh and if you though Timid Lando-I hit hard, you need to question it again because this thing runs MODEST. This is an offense breaker, offense is the most used style, so FINALLY people begun to notice it being busted. Around this time people also started to use Hidden Power Ice where as you didnt really see it before, probably to combat soft checks like D-Nite and Sp.Def Gliscor who again needed to run that spread to combat it. Oh and did i tell you people started with switch up and mix and match its moves at around this point now? Yeeeeeeah have fun with that.

Anyway, stall and balance players could have told you months ago it was broken, but apparently something shitting on stall isnt a cause for concern anymore (?_?) see: Goth, MGardy etc, when actually the opposite is true. If something breaks stall, its probably a very good indicative of something being broken. So basically in the case with Landorus-I, it breaks most play styles and as soon as a set comes along that threatens ~~senpai offense~~, offensive players tend to get what they want in regards to bans which imo warps the voting, sad but pretty much true.

Standard ladder player: "Mega Gardy? Mega Hera? Goth? They break stall? lol np offense desu kawii ftw np throw my scarfer at it :DDD <ignorantly disregard other play styles>" (hint: revenge killing something being the primary way to deal with it isnt a good argument for something being broken and is a giant red flashing beacon to tell you something is broken).

Anyway i digress, but what you're looking at countering and beating at this point in the metagame, in no particular order of commonness or effectiveness:

Landorus-I@Life Orb
Timid/Modest Nature
Trait: Sheer Force
- Rock Polish / Calm Mind / Focus Blast / Hidden power Ice / Psychic / Knock Off
- Earth Power
- Rock Polish / Calm Mind / Focus Blast / Hidden power Ice / Psychic / Knock Off
- Rock Polish / Calm Mind / Focus Blast / Hidden power Ice / Psychic / Knock Off

Basically as ive said before, it picks its own counter and causes a massive headache and team match up because all of the moves ive listed are common af (so please, 4mss is a very bad argument with this poke cos it WILL cost you a poke if you have this mindset). It can break any style tailoring its easily versatile moveset and tbh i dont see it benefiting the OU metagame when you literally have to bend over backwards to account for this mon.

 

[Anti]

rock polish landorus was an xy set too.

i don't understand how "it can tailor itself to beat any playstyle" translates to it being broken. stylistic matchup versatility is not the same as the coverage versatility you mention. in battle, if i switch gliscor into landorus, i am afraid that it might be packing hp ice. i am definitely not afraid that "oh no, this landorus could be a balance breaker!" the latter is a rhetorical shorthand the communicates what stylistic match-ups a pokemon generally does well against. i actually find a poke like zard x to be a lot more versatile since it has good match-ups across playstyles without needing to alter its set. landorus is not so lucky.

i just think it's more complicated than your portrayal lol.

 

[Zeffy]

it picks its own counter and causes a massive headache and team match up because all of the moves ive listed are common af

??? This statement doesn't make sense. It picks its own counters? Technically speaking, all Pokemon "pick" their own counters based on the set they are running. I'm not saying that Landorus-I isn't worthy of a ban, but just because it can be versatile doesn't automatically mean it's broken.

 

[Dark Azelf]

??? This statement doesn't make sense. It picks its own counters? Technically speaking, all Pokemon "pick" their own counters based on the set they are running. I'm not saying that Landorus-I isn't worthy of a ban, but just because it can be versatile doesn't automatically mean it's broken.

It makes perfect sense. The majority of its "checks" and "counters" totally depend on the moves it uses and this alone restricts team building ridiculously when trying to account for the moves it packs. An example, trying to check CM Lando with Gliscor or trying to revenge kill the rock polish set with ScarfChomp.

Technically speaking, all Pokemon "pick" their own counters based on the set they are running.

This is false. Shit like Azumarril isnt getting past its counters no matter what its running. I mean you could make an argument and say something like "Skill Swap Gallade beats Mega Sable and can picks its own counters" except Skill Swap Gallade has the inherent problem, well, thats its shit, not as versatile, still loses to Shadow Ball etc.

No pokemon in OU has the combined style breaking ability of Landorus, despite how "versatile" or what set they are running, im sorry.

i don't understand how "it can tailor itself to beat any playstyle" translates to it being broken.

Because you have to bend over backwards to counter and check it and it greatly restricts team building as ive said above trying to account for all its common moves. Something which no other pokemon currently does to the extent of Lando.

 

[Anti]

stylistic versatility

Right, so I definitely agree that the long list of attack moves you mentioned in the post (you forgot Sludge Wave btw and even Rock Slide LOL) gives Landorus "ban-worthy" versatility.

But I am sincerely confused by the stuff about stylistic versatility. I'll give you a comparison you'll surely love, and it's DPP Lucario. That poke has very similar versatility in its set-up options (SD "for stall/balance" and Agility "for offense") which makes it very difficult to handle in both match-ups. What Pokemon commonly used on offensive teams stops Agility Lucario? Agility/CC/Crunch/Ice Punch. I want to know. Because it's faster than Scarf Flygon, no longer needs Bullet Punch to prevent a Gengar/ScarfTar RK, and tosses ScarfTran, and beats Scarf Rotom-A with minimal prior damage. Gyarados is the Latias of this example. I get that Landorus is more threatening than Lucario, but that's kind of the point. Of course Lucario isn't broken in DPP. I don't see how "it can put in work vs. numerous playstyles" makes something remotely broken. It just means it isn't a match-up mon like, say, Mega Gardevoir is, right?

Care to explain that point further?

Sorry, but I've said it before and say it again: anyone who tries to create a "rules within the rules" on a 3DS game and bans a Pokémon, only to then have to ban something else that would have no chance in the other tiers afterwards, is an idiot.

Can we please not railroad yet another thread with "people who disagree with my tiering philosophy are idiots"...please?

 

[Dark Azelf]

Right, so I definitely agree that the long list of attack moves you mentioned in the post (you forgot Sludge Wave btw and even Rock Slide LOL) gives Landorus "ban-worthy" versatility.

But I am sincerely confused by the stuff about stylistic versatility. I'll give you a comparison you'll surely love, and it's DPP Lucario. That poke has very similar versatility in its set-up options (SD "for stall/balance" and Agility "for offense") which makes it very difficult to handle in both match-ups. What Pokemon commonly used on offensive teams stops Agility Lucario? Agility/CC/Crunch/Ice Punch. I want to know. Because it's faster than Scarf Flygon, no longer needs Bullet Punch to prevent a Gengar/ScarfTar RK, and tosses ScarfTran, and beats Scarf Rotom-A with minimal prior damage. Gyarados is the Latias of this example. I get that Landorus is more threatening than Lucario, but that's kind of the point. Of course Lucario isn't broken in DPP. I don't see how "it can put in work vs. numerous playstyles" makes something remotely broken. It just means it isn't a match-up mon like, say, Mega Gardevoir is, right?

Care to explain that point further?

Ah knew i forgot a move i was like "sure this is missing something, Grass Knot? Rofl". Also people still use Rock Slide? Might be ok for sri to beat Fletchinder.

Sure ill explain. Lucario simply lacks the power Lando does AND the speed even in DP. Lucario commonly is cockblocked by things like Gyarados on offense in DPP't and is checked by things it simply it cant KO with Extremespeed (see stuff like faster Jirachi w fire punch) or after an Agility because its weak (aka p much everything it cant hit for SE).

Why is Landorus different/better in ORAS than DPPt Luke? Sheer Force, plain and simple, 2 free recoil free life orb boosts. I also think Sheer Force is a good argument as to why its so much better at breaking in ORAS than Luke was in DP, not only because of the obvious power boost but because of the fact that Landorus is ALOT harder to wear down because of the Life Orb recoil negating side effects of it. Additionally Lucario was worn down alot by the ubiquitous Spikes in DP which commonly put it in KO range for alot of shit or made it even harder to set up (one of Lucarios biggest flaws in DP). Even if Defog was still shit, Landorus would still be harder to wear down (yes i know Luke has more resistances) because its immune to Spikes which would be huge, but thats getting into theorymon. Tl;dr Lucario cannot have both power and speed on one set where Lando can (not just Rock Polish but 101 speed is so much better than 90 in terms of benchmarks), it also needs to set up to be effective where Lando often doesnt. Also even though you know its going to be a special set (pls dont say ppl still use Sand Force lando lol), it still fucks you, thats how versatile it is on the special side. I wont go into Knock Off either but its bs utility move which Lucario didnt/doesnt have in its arsenal either to fuck its counters.

Asking me about Gardevoir vs any playstyle is a bad thing. I think its broke as fuck still since offense simply cannot switch into it, wont even mention bulky and balance teams and p much the only reason its still OU/not getting ban attention is because MMeta is and MScizor to an extent being useful. Plus the fact people/ladder players still have the delusion of "I HAS SCARFER ILL B FINE ITS NOT BROKEN SLOWTH ROFL" even though the rest of the team is fucked by it lol.

rock polish landorus was an xy set too.

Did anyone even run this in early XY? I seriously cant remember anyone using it. Knock/Psychic/Power/Focus Blast was literally the only early XY set i saw it run.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

Asking me about Gardevoir vs any playstyle is a bad thing. I think its broke as fuck still since offense simply cannot switch into it, wont even mention bulky and balance teams and p much the only reason its still OU/not getting ban attention is because MMeta is and MScizor to an extent being useful. Plus the fact people/ladder players still have the delusion of "I HAS SCARFER ILL B FINE ITS NOT BROKEN SLOWTH ROFL" even though the rest of the team is fucked by it lol.

The thing is that the same thing can be said about Crawdaunt, Kyurem-B, Toxic Orb Hera, Mega Camerupt and many other common wallbreakers.

 

[Anti]

Ah knew i forgot a move i was like "sure this is missing something, Grass Knot? Rofl". Also people still use Rock Slide? Might be ok for sri to beat Fletchinder.

Sure ill explain. Lucario simply lacks the power Lando does AND the speed even in DP. Lucario commonly is cockblocked by things like Gyarados on offense in DPP't and is checked by things it simply it cant KO with Extremespeed (see stuff like faster Jirachi w fire punch) or after an Agility because its weak (aka p much everything it cant hit for SE).

Why is Landorus different/better in ORAS than DPPt Luke? Sheer Force, plain and simple, 2 free recoil free life orb boosts. I also think Sheer Force is a good argument as to why its so much better at breaking in ORAS than Luke was in DP, not only because of the obvious power boost but because of the fact that Landorus is ALOT harder to wear down because of the Life Orb recoil negating side effects of it. Additionally Lucario was worn down alot by the ubiquitous Spikes in DP which commonly put it in KO range for alot of muk or made it even harder to set up (one of Lucarios biggest flaws in DP). Even if Defog was still muk, Landorus would still be harder to wear down (yes i know Luke has more resistances) because its immune to Spikes which would be huge, but thats getting into theorymon. Tl;dr Lucario cannot have both power and speed on one set where Lando can (not just Rock Polish but 101 speed is so much better than 90 in terms of benchmarks), it also needs to set up to be effective where Lando often doesnt. Also even though you know its going to be a special set (pls dont say ppl still use Sand Force lando lol), it still psyducks you, thats how versatile it is on the special side. I wont go into Knock Off either but its bs utility move which Lucario didnt/doesnt have in its arsenal either to psyduck its counters.

Asking me about Gardevoir vs any playstyle is a bad thing. I think its broke as psyduck still since offense simply cannot switch into it, wont even mention bulky and balance teams and p much the only reason its still OU/not getting ban attention is because MMeta is and MScizor to an extent being useful. Plus the fact people/ladder players still have the delusion of "I HAS SCARFER ILL B FINE ITS NOT BROKEN SLOWTH ROFL" even though the rest of the team is psyducked by it lol.

Did anyone even run this in early XY? I seriously cant remember anyone using it. Knock/Psychic/Power/Focus Blast was literally the only early XY set i saw it run.

you're overestimating base 101 speed which is shit tbh, the only relevant offensive threats in the meta it outruns are bisharp (sucker punch lol), manaphy, gardevoir, and charizard y. lucario beats dragonite and gyarados and commonly runs priority. they both need speed boosting moves, realistically, if they want to outrun anything of note.

you say landorus has immediate power that landorus does not, but this is not true:

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 214-253 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Dragon: 211-250 (55.3 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

it's almost identical.

i don't want to break down lucario vs. landorus unnecessarily - the point is just that both have tremendous playstyle versatility. i think lucario is a good example of why that is meaningless, frankly, and everything you mentioned above is true (bar the difference in immediate power) is much more compelling as ban reasons. and the reason i push it is because i think it's a terrible precedent that we would imply through tiering that anything that isn't a match-up mon is suspect. don't want your offense to get clubbed by rp lando? don't let it set up and/or build a better offense. (and unlike with mmeta, setting up lando and getting free turns with it vs. some offenses is easier said than done.)

to the last part, earliest stats i could find were early oras, but good enough since that's when landorus was perceived as a lesser threat. it ran rock polish 24% of the time (going off elo-weighted stats here). while it has increased since then, it definitely existed before. for what it's worth, i saw it a bit in xy.