Tragedy in Ukraine: Malaysian Airlines flight crash, 295 killed

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ng-295-people-crashes-in-ukraine-9612882.html

The Ukrainian rebels and the Ukraine government are accusing each other.

Discuss.

edit: adding some context

A Malaysia Airlines passenger plane was shot down over Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 295 people aboard. The plane was on its way from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

Anton Gerashenko, an adviser to Ukraine's Interior Minister, wrote on Facebook that the plane was hit by a missile fired from a Buk launcher over the country's east. U.S. officials told NBC News that the plane was shot down by a surface-to-air missile, and that intelligence analysts "were trying to determine who launched the missile."

Although Ukraine blamed pro-Russian militants for shooting down the plane, separatist leader Oleg Tsarev denied the accusations. "We don't have weapons that can take down a plane from that altitude," Tsarev told TIME. Business Insider explains that despite Tsarev's denials, the rebels reportedly had such weapons and have recently taken down multiple Ukrainian military aircraft. The New Republic's Julia Ioffe notes, "An hour before #MH17 went down, separatists were bragging about downing a Ukrainian military plane."

Malaysia Airlines confirmed it had lost contact with flight MH17 and that its last position was over Ukrainian airspace.

A Russian aviation industry source told Reuters that the plane did not enter Russian airspace when expected. Russian radio reports that the plane's black box has been sent to Moscow "for investigation," according to The Daily Beast.

Ukraine's east has seen heavy fighting between the country's military and separatists in recent days. Earlier on Thursday, the Ukrainian military claimed Russian jets had shot down a Ukrainian warplane late Wednesday night.

More from the Associated Press:

GRABOVO, Ukraine (AP) — A Malaysia Airlines passenger plane carrying 295 people was shot down over eastern Ukraine on Thursday, Ukrainian officials said, and both the government and the pro-Russia separatists fighting in the region denied any responsibility for downing the aircraft.
As plumes of black smoke rose up near a rebel-held village of Grabovo, an Associated Press journalist counted at least 22 bodies at the wreckage site 40 kilometers (25 miles) from the Russian border.

The Boeing 777-200ER plane, traveling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, appeared to have broken up before impact and the burning wreckage — which included body parts and the belongings of passengers — was scattered over a wide area.

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko called the downing an act of terrorism and called for an international investigation into the crash. He insisted that his forces did not shoot down the plane.

President Barack Obama called the crash a "terrible tragedy" and talked about it on the phone with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

The village of Grabovo is currently under the control of pro-Russia separatists and the area has seen severe fighting between the two sides in recent days.

Aviation authorities in several countries, including the FAA in the United States, had issued warnings not to fly over parts of Ukraine prior to Thursday's crash. Within hours, several airlines, including Lufthansa and KLM, released statements Thursday saying they were avoiding parts of Ukrainian airspace.

Malaysia Airlines said Ukrainian aviation authorities told the company they had lost contact with Flight MH17 at 1415 GMT (10 a.m. EDT) about 30 kilometers (20 miles) from Tamak waypoint, which is 50 kilometers (30 miles) from the Russia-Ukraine border.

It said the plane was carrying 280 passengers and 15 crew members. It had left Amsterdam at 12:15 p.m. and was due to arrive at Kuala Lumpur International Airport at 6:10 a.m. Friday.

Anton Gerashenko, an adviser to Ukraine's interior minister, said on his Facebook page the plane was flying at an altitude of 10,000 meters (33,000 feet) when it was hit by a missile from a Buk launcher, which can fire up to an altitude of 22,000 meters (72,000 feet).

Igor Sutyagin, a research fellow in Russian studies at the Royal United Services Institute, said both Ukrainian and Russian forces have SA-17 missile systems — also known as Buk ground-to-air launcher systems.

He said Russia had supplied separatist rebels with military hardware, but he had seen no evidence "of the transfer of that type of system from Russia." The weapons that the rebels are known to have do not have the capacity to reach beyond 4,500 meters. (14,750 feet)

A launcher similar to the Buk missile system was seen by Associated Press journalists earlier Thursday near the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne, which is held by the rebels.

The Malaysia Airlines plane was delivered to the company on July 30, 1997, according to Flightglobal's Ascend Online Fleets. It has more than 43,000 hours of flight time and 6,950 takeoffs and landings.

Poroshenko said his country's armed forces didn't shoot at any airborne targets.

"We do not exclude that this plane was shot down, and we stress that the Armed Forces of Ukraine did not take action against any airborne targets," he said. "We are sure that those who are guilty in this tragedy will be held responsible."

The Kremlin said Putin "informed the U.S. president of the report from air traffic controllers that the Malaysian plane had crashed on Ukrainian territory" without giving further details about their call. The White House confirmed the call.

Separatist leader Andrei Purgin told The Associated Press that he was certain that Ukrainian troops had shot the plane down, but gave no explanation or proof for his statement.

Purgin said he did not know whether rebel forces owned Buk missile launchers, but said even if they did, they had no fighters capable of operating it.

It was the second time that a Malaysia Airlines plane was lost in less than six months. Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 disappeared in March while en route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing. It has not been found, but the search has been concentrated in the Indian Ocean far west of Australia.

Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte, who had been attending a European Union summit in Brussels, headed back to the Netherlands to deal with fallout from the crash.

There have been several disputes over planes being shot down over eastern Ukraine in recent days.

On Wednesday evening, a Ukrainian fighter jet was shot down by an air-to-air missile from a Russian plane, Ukrainian authorities said Thursday, adding to what Kiev says is mounting evidence that Moscow is directly supporting the separatist insurgents. Ukraine Security Council spokesman Andrei Lysenko said the pilot of the Sukhoi-25 jet hit by the air-to-air missile was forced to bail after his jet was shot down.

Russia's U.N. Ambassador Vitaly Churkin told reporters at U.N. headquarters in New York on Thursday that Russia did not shoot down the Ukrainian fighter jet on Wednesday. "We didn't do it," Churkin said

Pro-Russia rebels, meanwhile, claimed responsibility for strikes Wednesday on two Ukrainian Sukhoi-25 jets.

The Ukrainian Defense Ministry said the second jet was hit by a portable surface-to-air missile, but added the pilot was unscathed and managed to land his plane safely

Moscow denies Western charges that is supporting the separatists or sowing unrest in its neighbor.

Earlier this week, Ukraine said a military transport plane was shot down Monday over eastern Ukraine by a missile fired from Russian territory.

Other passenger planes have been shot down before including:

— April 20, 1978: Korean Airlines Flight 902, which diverted from its planned course on a flight from Paris to Seoul and strayed over the Soviet Union. After being fired upon by an interceptor aircraft, the crew made a forced landing at night on the surface of a frozen lake. Two of the 97 passengers were killed by the hostile fire.

— Sept. 1, 1983: Korean Air Lines Flight 007 shot down by at least one Soviet air-to-air missile after the 747 had strayed into Soviet airspace. All 240 passengers and 29 crew were killed.

— July 3, 1988: Iran Air Flight 655 Aircraft was shot down by a surface to air missile from the American naval vessel U.S.S. Vincennes. All 16 crew and 274 passengers were killed.

___

Leonard reported from Kiev. Contributing to this report were AP Airlines Writer Scott Mayerowitz in New York; Jill Lawless and Matthew Knight in London; Laura Mills and Jim Heintz in Moscow, Mike Corder in The Hague, Netherlands, and Eileen Ng and Satish Cheney in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

 

[Livewire]

It was my understanding that the plane was shot down by a SAM (Surface to Air) Missile. Not to prematurely point fingers, but I do recall that the Pro-Russian separatist forces (AKA Russian spec ops in different clothes) had access to anti-aircraft missiles and whatnot. If so, that's not good. That would constitute an act of war, and could make things there even worse.

 

[Alice]

Pro-Russian forces posted on twitter (something about them using twitter seems almost silly) pictures of their fancy new anti-aircraft missile launcher, and claimed to have shot down a military plane right after this happened. Once it came out that it was a civilian plane, they tried to delete all of that, but of course it's the internet, so that's not possible. There's also several videos of them talking about it. Some of them freaking out that it was a civilian plane, some seemingly uninterested. There's an awful lot of evidence pointing to them at this point.

I think this will end up having a fairly large impact on things in the area... hopefully good for Ukraine, although I somehow doubt it will really be good for anyone.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

Considering all the information that has happened, especially regarding the militia group, I'm quite concerned that this is going to evolve into a very serious full fledged problem. Personally, I don't want to get involved, but you know how countries like to get when they get in these little wars...

 

[Logical Cabbage]

Maybe the very Malaysia airport has something to do with this tragedy too... If you remember, this is the same airport where that airplane went missing and nobody has found it ever since... And now this. This had to obviously be from supporters to join Russia. It's like who's that cold to shoot down a plane full with passengers? They are still trying to find the remains of those that perished.

I totally smell war here. This is how wars start and the same fate will follow other countries who join either side or stay neutral. And knowing the country of USA, they will get involved with this debut in Asia... World War 3 by Ukrainian and Russian folks. I feel very sorry for those innocent people that died. And it doesn't help that earlier the president gave a speech about it and how he's willing to help Ukraine if all other methods fail.

 

[Palkia]

The thing which infuriates me is that most of the countries are going to inevitably join in. Great, more innocent lives lost due to nihilistic men in suits.

Apparently there was also a family which lost both people on MH370 and MH17: https://goo.gl/DqPfRo

I'm never getting on a plane again.

 

[Logical Cabbage]

The thing which infuriates me is that most of the countries are going to inevitably join in. Great, more innocent lives lost due to nihilistic men in suits.

Apparently there was also a family which lost both people on MH370 and MH17: https://goo.gl/DqPfRo

I'm never getting on a plane again.

Yes indeed. Countries just want to go where all the action is and all... I was supposed to fly to North Carolina but I missed it. After yesterday's news, I'm grateful I missed that flight. Who knows? Maybe the Pro-Russian people might get crazy and attack here in America. It has happened before with Pearl Harbor and will happen again eventually. I hope there won't be war anytime soon...

 

[Shiny Bunnelby]

The news of this tragedy really messed me up, especially after finding out that three infants were on that flight. My daughter is celebrating her first birthday tomorrow, so my new, and extremely sensitive, motherly instincts are still very much there. I spent a huge bit of today both depressed and excessively attached to my daughter.

I just cannot wrap my head around why people can kill one another, let alone nearly 300, for practically no reason. What's the point? What's the goal? In fact, what use is warfare? Why are we still so very barbaric that we cannot discuss matters like civilized beings?

Animals exhibit better morals, and we insist they're wild. What a joke.

 

[Shiny Bunnelby]

Animals do not have any concept of morals whatsoever, they just do what they have to do to survive. Sure you may think dogs or cats are all lovey dovey and cute but that's because we feed them to enable survival, wild animals would have no compunction about ripping your baby daughters throat out.

Firstly, I said "exhibit" as in "demonstrate". Never did I say that they absolutely have morals. Please, do not make assumptions based on few words. Animals show signs of emotional thought in several ways. Elephants practice funeral-like "arrangements" and mourn their dead. Cats and dogs refuse to leave their closest when they pass. Several different mammals have "adopted" the young of different species and didn't kill them when the parental bond came to pass. They are not red-blooded machines. They do have emotions and they are a lot more aware than any of us may think. But, you are right that they have no concept of morality... as we do, or should. They could very well have their own ideas of what's right or wrong. Even we were primal at one point. We cannot read their minds, but given certain circumstances, we can at least give them some credit.


Secondly, I find it highly disrespectful and repulsive to use a horrific analogy involving my own daughter. If you want to make your point, be a bit considerate and make better use of your creative thinking. You could have come up with a much better comparison without being insensitive. I am well aware that animals are more impulsive than we are. I never said they follow our way of thinking precisely.

The point is, animals don't kill for no reason.
These people, if I should even call them that, they did. They got trigger-happy and went after a civilian aircraft. This is why I originally stated that animals demonstrated better morals, considering they don't wipe out their own kind en masse just because.

As for your opinion about what will happen from here: I hope you're right. I really do hope nothing escalates from here. It absolutely shouldn't.

 

[Absolus]

Pro-Russian forces posted on twitter (something about them using twitter seems almost silly) pictures of their fancy new anti-aircraft missile launcher, and claimed to have shot down a military plane right after this happened. Once it came out that it was a civilian plane, they tried to delete all of that, but of course it's the internet, so that's not possible. There's also several videos of them talking about it. Some of them freaking out that it was a civilian plane, some seemingly uninterested. There's an awful lot of evidence pointing to them at this point.

This doesn't surprise me. There is no way either side would deliberately shoot down a civilian aircraft, it would do nothing but harm their cause as it would turn so many nations against them. This scenario is tragic, but you can see how it happened.

Apparently there was also a family which lost both people on MH370 and MH17: https://goo.gl/DqPfRo

Wow... that is devastating. What are the odds...

 

[Shiny Bunnelby]

I'm not here to spare your feelings. Deal with death because it will happen, even to your daughter. Such an event happened in Australia "A dingo stole my baby!" You're demonstrating how much more people care about death when it affects them. Whilst you do feel empathy for the people that went down in what would have been a terrifying fiery wreck on that aircraft it's amplified because you associate with it occuring to your own blood.

Very few people have an insubstantial reason to kill, a few people do it for fun, we call them psychopaths. Assuming separatists committed this act (I'm 90% sure it was) they may have been trigger happy but there was certainly a reason, that being they were fighting for their beliefs, which are supposedly self determination. Perhaps they thought it was a military target. Even if they were aware it was a civilian aircraft terrorism against innocents may seem pointless but it is a calculated act to advance their agenda. That works by playing on widespread public emotional response or threatening government interests.

Chances are this was an accident, it benefits no-one. Russian backed separatists look like the bad guys. Democratic nations are pressured to respond but cannot because it would risk escalation and all out war. In that scenario nobody wins except anarchists or terrorists who just genuinely hate the world outside their beliefs and want everything to burn e.g Islamic extremists.

Death happens. I disagree with another poster above who describes national leadership as "nihilistic men in suits". Nihilism is not placing any meaning on life whatsoever. I'd like to think politicians care about their people, failing that their own survival. That's not nihilism. Even those who shot down the plane understand the value of life as it will work against them. Being emotionally detached and pragmatic is a necessity, is it worth avenging a few hundred or thousand (9/11) lives at the cost of millions, possibly billions? The logical response to that question is no, especially if it is your own life or that of people you place emotional attachment on. I do agree that ideally we shouldn't go around killing people for malicious reasons and that every life should have the same value. It's been a little unfair that since foreigners died coverage of this event is tremendous but Ukranian civilian deaths do not spark nearly as much interest. It's a small concern until it happens to you or someone you know.

The outcome I see from this incident is civilian airliners possibly avoiding Ukranian airspace altogether to prevent this from happening again. UN intervention in the conflict is impossible because Russia has veto power. Coalition military force in proximity to a nation such as an enforced no fly zone has the potential to trigger all out war, as nearly occured during the 1962 Cuban missile crisis with ICBM launchers in Turkey threatening the USSR's national security and vice verce in Cuba. It's either world war which nobody wants or let the Ukranians kill themselves until it's all over. The loss of innocent human life is regrettable but unstoppable and we all die eventually. That's nihilism :)

This entire thing started over disagreements as to whether Ukraine should have ties with the E.U or Russia. A neutral buffer zone between NATO and Russia is the only way to please both sides but who knows who will win. So far Putin is the only one agressive enough to give military aid. If the separatists win because of this and Ukraine becomes a puppet state we are in trouble. Still, supporting the government in a proxy war is not good for peace either. The only way to overcome this is opposition from within Russia but RT news is spewing out propaganda and many from the Ukraine are ethnically Russian.

Again, you assume things about me that simply are not true. I place value in every life. If you had been speaking to somebody else, I would have been just as disgusted by the use of such words. As for death, I have come to terms with it ages ago, as several people I have known have committed suicide, been murdered, died in car accidents, and some went from natural causes. I accept that it will happen to my daughter and I have mentally prepared myself for such an event, should she go before I do. However, it doesn't make it okay to use someone's loved one as an example for your analogies. Period. That's just personal and uncalled for. This is the last that I will speak of this, as I can tell you are intelligent and I respect that. I also respect your views on the topic at hand and even agree with you.

For the sake of this thread, I am brushing this under the rug, as there is no use quarrelling over how the other thinks in emotional matters. That is subjective with neither right, nor wrong answers.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

Animals do not have any concept of morals whatsoever, they just do what they have to do to survive. Sure you may think dogs or cats are all lovey dovey and cute but that's because we feed them to enable survival, wild animals would have no compunction about ripping your baby daughters throat out f they were hungry.

Honestly, that's debatable. Many animals have exhibited what seems like altruistic acts for nonrelated members of their species, such as crows. Altruistic behaviour is beneficial for a social species because it promotes strength within a community, which is why humans (typically) are more altruistic than other animals - because we rely on society in order to survive.

The reason why things like this happened is because society focuses on the power of a select few. The pro-Russian supporters responsible for this act obviously wanted to make a statement. It's possible that they didn't intend to shoot down a commercial aircraft instead of a military one, but either way, it was a message.

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

They probably thought it was a military aircraft. I do think it's awful how some are interfering with the investigation and even moving bodies to what seems to be in order to hide proof/avoid guilt.

I hope nothing big (well bigger) comes from this.

 

[Corrin]

IIRC though passenger planes don't really look like military craft, and there was many other ones flying over that area.
Not to be critical, but it seems like they just wanted to show everyone how "powerful" they are, they should be able to tell it is a regular plane.

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

IIRC though passenger planes don't really look like military craft, and there was many other ones flying over that area.
Not to be critical, but it seems like they just wanted to show everyone how "powerful" they are, they should be able to tell it is a regular plane.

That or they have some pretty bad eye sight...
Though considering the fallout of all this I wonder why they'll do it, it seems pretty stupid for them to do so. Not that stupid calculations haven't been done before in War though :/

 

[Oryx]

Maybe the very Malaysia airport has something to do with this tragedy too... If you remember, this is the same airport where that airplane went missing and nobody has found it ever since... And now this. This had to obviously be from supporters to join Russia. It's like who's that cold to shoot down a plane full with passengers? They are still trying to find the remains of those that perished.

I totally smell war here. This is how wars start and the same fate will follow other countries who join either side or stay neutral. And knowing the country of USA, they will get involved with this debut in Asia... World War 3 by Ukrainian and Russian folks. I feel very sorry for those innocent people that died. And it doesn't help that earlier the president gave a speech about it and how he's willing to help Ukraine if all other methods fail.

I don't think it's "obvious" that the airport had something to do with it. It's unfortunate coincidence. What makes it so obvious to you?

If the airport was involved they might have picked a plane that wasn't filled with researchers for a cure to AIDs. I highly doubt they were.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

IIRC though passenger planes don't really look like military craft, and there was many other ones flying over that area.
Not to be critical, but it seems like they just wanted to show everyone how "powerful" they are, they should be able to tell it is a regular plane.

Airliners fly at over 30,000 feet in the air. If military craft do as well, it would not be easy to tell the difference.

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

Airliners fly at over 30,000 feet in the air. If military craft do as well, it would not be easy to tell the difference.

This too. Though one has to wonder why they couldn't have seen it from a telescope that it was a airliner. I imagine to be able to hit something that high up they'll need a device that would zoom in and allow them a better view of what they were hitting in order to hit it.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

I'm not sure. More worrying is why Malaysia airlines was flying through a war zone in the first place.

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

That was painful to read... radar guided and heatseeking missiles have existed for decades, you do not need to see something with the naked eye in order to shoot it down. I suggest you go look at a Wikipedia page describing modern military technology.

That being said even if they did have visual contact with the aircraft it's unlikely separatists had formal training in aircraft recognition. They probably just thought "Hey there's an aircraft that's probably Ukranian military, let's fire our shiny new Russian supplied missile at it!" They've already shot down several military aircraft so there is a precedent for them engaging in that behaviour and having the expertise to use anti-aircraft platforms effectively.

Even with heat seeking and radar technology they should've been able to determine the size of the object (in this case the aircraft). I guess that perhaps they didn't take the time to analyze it and just shot it down while they had the chance.