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Trans teen commits suicide after conversion therapy

Star-Lord

withdrawl .
715
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That poor child. My heart breaks.

I'm not completely brushed up on my American legal precedents but wasn't a roommate who's bullying/complacency ended up to a gay man killing themself and then subsequently got charged? If that's the case I believe the parents should be charged in this one.
 

PinkCatDragon

The 17 year old programer. Now byte off
388
Posts
14
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That poor child. My heart breaks.

I'm not completely brushed up on my American legal precedents but wasn't a roommate who's bullying/complacency ended up to a gay man killing themself and then subsequently got charged? If that's the case I believe the parents should be charged in this one.
Not sure about American. but in UK both parents would be charged. and the furnel would go to state. they propleby make sure she is buryed female we the correct name on the stone. and will forceably exucute her will on her suicide note
 

Keiran

[b]Rock Solid[/b]
2,455
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That poor child. My heart breaks.

I'm not completely brushed up on my American legal precedents but wasn't a roommate who's bullying/complacency ended up to a gay man killing themself and then subsequently got charged? If that's the case I believe the parents should be charged in this one.

You're talking about the Suicide of Tyler Clementi. Sadly, they only got charged with things such as "invading privacy".

You would think it logical to charge the parents and Christian "therapists" with manslaughter - but we don't live in a just world. They should *at least* get child abuse and endangerment for incentivizing suicide.
 

obZen

Kill Your Heroes
397
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18
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That poor child. My heart breaks.

I'm not completely brushed up on my American legal precedents but wasn't a roommate who's bullying/complacency ended up to a gay man killing themself and then subsequently got charged? If that's the case I believe the parents should be charged in this one.

He was sent to 30 days in jail, and only served 20 days.
He did not pay for what he had done. Also, he's not getting deported.

Being reminded of Tyler Clementi, this concerns me more because a gay kid got bullied, killed himself, and saw virtually no justice. A trans teen would have no help in the same situation.
 
14,092
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Conversion Therapy and other forms of "pray the gay away" therapy are dangerous to the mental health of the person in question. Piety is not an excuse for the parents - they willfully and deliberately subjected the kid to intense and dangerous psychological and mental traumas that resulted in her death. Manslaughter/Negligent Homicide charges would be appropriate here and I think they need to be pursued. What happened to her is sickening.
 

£

You're gonna have a bad time.
947
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This isn't a tragedy, this is a real fucking problem that is far from being solved.

As this death showed, there are people so ignorant that they won't look at this death as martyrdom, they'll go "oh well he/she (using the wrong pronoun) wasn't right in the head" and they'll carry on their own way absolving themselves of any fault for respective incident.

As long as there are people like that around, there is a long way to go. All that can be done is for those who are better educated to raise awareness, and for those that are oppressed by the selfish morons to not take their own life; nothing will change if everyone did that. They need to stand up and be who they are in the face of any adversity. It shouldn't be what they have to do, but it is what they need to do to make progress here.
 

Alexander Nicholi

what do you know about computing?
5,500
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As this death showed, there are people so ignorant that they won't look at this death as martyrdom, they'll go "oh well he/she (using the wrong pronoun) wasn't right in the head" and they'll carry on their own way absolving themselves of any fault for respective incident.
"There's a madman on the loose! He's torching government buildings, he's shooting up schools!"

The same thing with that idea there is present here. The parents once again cling to dismissive rationalizations that foster their closed-mindedness and go on about their day. They honestly believe their child had no rhyme or reason to their behaviour and dismissed it the same people would in the above analogy. There is so much more reason behind things that's being thrown out the window and it's just like 'what can you do?'

You can't fix stupid, can you?
 

Sloan Kettering

Robot Master
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Well, I'm really not sure blind punishment IS the correct answer. Tragedies like this come from incredible ignorance, fear and childhood indoctrination. Her parents were not the kind of people mentally capable of taking care of a child. This of course does not make free from blame, but we really have to look for the cause of such dangerous thinking and it all stems from this incredibly dangerous bastardization of religion that has swept the United States over the past 50 or so years. We're not far from groups of terrified idiots burning children at the stake to purge away the gay or something.
 

Her

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since we seem to be going that way, question: what do you think should happen to leelah's parents?
 

Alice

(>^.(>0.0)>
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In some ways, it seems a bit harsh, but Negligent Manslaughter seems to fit quite nicely.
wikipedia said:
Criminally negligent manslaughter occurs where there is an omission to act when there is a duty to do so, or a failure to perform a duty owed, which leads to a death. The existence of the duty is essential because the law does not impose criminal liability for a failure to act unless a specific duty is owed to the victim. It is most common in the case of professionals who are grossly negligent in the course of their employment. An example is where a doctor fails to notice a patient's oxygen supply has disconnected and the patient dies (R v Adomako). Another example could be leaving a child locked in a car on a hot day.
So long as Leelah was under 18, her parents had a duty to take care of her. Had they simply rejected her desire to transition, that would be one thing. But they abused her, and intentionally prevented her from receiving help of any kind. They were the direct cause.
 

Tek

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Reading this thread, one words jumps out at me: intolerance. But not just on the part of the girl's parents.

To be narrow-minded is not always willful stupidity; to be unable to accept things outside your norm is not evil. It's just developmental. It's like only being able to do arithmetic in a world of algebra.

I do agree that a terrible mistake was made, and suffering followed. But when we demonize her parents for doing what they felt to be right, we are just the same as them, when they demonized her for what she felt in her heart. They could not accept who she was, and we, apparently, cannot accept who they are.

I don't have any answers here as to how we should proceed, except to point out that many of us are being no more understanding than those whose ignorance we decry. I don't think anyone is their best, most compassionate self when overcome with strong negative emotions.
 
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Her

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Reading this thread, one words jumps out at me: intolerance. But not just on the part of the girl's parents.

To be narrow-minded is not always willful stupidity; to be unable to accept things outside your norm is not evil. It's just developmental. It's like only being able to do arithmetic in a world of algebra.

I do agree that a terrible mistake was made, and suffering followed. But when we demonize her parents for doing what they felt to be right, we are just the same as them, when they demonized her for what she felt in her heart. They could not accept who she was, and we, apparently, cannot accept who they are.

I don't have any answers here as to how we should proceed, except to point out that many of us are being no more understanding than those whose ignorance we decry. I don't think anyone is their best, most compassionate self when overcome with strong negative emotions.

......no, my lack of compassion for two parents who caused the death of their own child due to their ignorance does not put me on their level
'don't fight fire with fire' arguments don't do anything but contribute to oppression
 

Sloan Kettering

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Reading this thread, one words jumps out at me: intolerance. But not just on the part of the girl's parents.

To be narrow-minded is not always willful stupidity; to be unable to accept things outside your norm is not evil. It's just developmental. It's like only being able to do arithmetic in a world of algebra.

I do agree that a terrible mistake was made, and suffering followed. But when we demonize her parents for doing what they felt to be right, we are just the same as them, when they demonized her for what she felt in her heart. They could not accept who she was, and we, apparently, cannot accept who they are.

I don't have any answers here as to how we should proceed, except to point out that many of us are being no more understanding than those whose ignorance we decry. I don't think anyone is their best, most compassionate self when overcome with strong negative emotions.

I somewhat agree with you, however there's still a level of responsibility being a parent brings. They're still adults with no mental defects and this is a terrible mistake and there's no way they couldn't see the toll it was taking on their child. No matter the circumstance, a parent is always responsible for the welfare of their child and this was a severe case of neglect/emotional abuse.
 

Tek

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......no, my lack of compassion for two parents who caused the death of their own child due to their ignorance does not put me on their level
'don't fight fire with fire' arguments don't do anything but contribute to oppression

Lack of empathy - inability or unwillingness to see another's perspective - is exactly what puts any and all of us 'on their level'. It's what we have in common with the Alcorns.

I understand how much Leelah's story upsets you. It's clear from your posts. and I've personally dealt with bigotry all my life, so I get it, I've lived it. But while your argument is passionate, it isn't logical.

Let's say we do fight fire with fire. As Alex has suggested, let's put them on the stand and take away everything they have left. When they tell us how they see the world, and how Leelah's perspective was wrong, then we'll tell them how we see the world, and how their perspective is wrong. And we will become the oppressors; we will be the same.

I somewhat agree with you, however there's still a level of responsibility being a parent brings. They're still adults with no mental defects and this is a terrible mistake and there's no way they couldn't see the toll it was taking on their child. No matter the circumstance, a parent is always responsible for the welfare of their child and this was a severe case of neglect/emotional abuse.

Honestly, I don't know what sort of punishment would be appropriate, though I vaguely feel there should be one. Perhaps the pain of their baby's death is punishment enough.

But there's something we're failing to see here. There's something our society at large has not yet picked up on, and it's at the heart of what happened and how we proceed.

A child with no mental defects does not have the same responsibilities as an adult. You can't vote, drive a car, or buy booze until you reach a certain age, because most people at those older ages have mentally developed to where they can handle those choices.

There is an exception in cases of violent crime and death. Children can be tried as adults in extreme situations. And my honest opinion is that it is primarily the extreme emotions involved with violent crimes that cause us to deviate from an otherwise logical system. We revert to a pre-logical way of thinking.

But our system is generally logical, and it's much better than what we've had in earlier epochs. The problem is that it doesn't go far enough. We recognize that there is a developmental difference between children and adults, but we don't recognize that there are developmental differences between adults as well. Differences that are just as fundamental, just as significant.

We imagine that all adults have reached the same level of cognition, and therefore we treat them all the same. Yet it should be completely obvious that Leelah's parents are not at the same level of cognition as all other adults. Their entire community is ruled not by rational inquiry, but by the authority of tradition.

Until we recognize this distinction, and we stop hating non-rational people because they are not like us, the path ahead will be bloody indeed.
 
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Keiran

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Empathy is not what we lack. Hiding transmisogyny under the guise of playing devil's advocate is what we lack. I understand their perspective - it is one of hatred and ignorance - and does not deserve my respect. We are not fighting fire with fire by disapproving of the parent's ideology, we are combating a violent nature by calling it out.
 

Tek

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Empathy is not what we lack. Hiding transmisogyny under the guise of playing devil's advocate is what we lack. I understand their perspective - it is one of hatred and ignorance - and does not deserve my respect. We are not fighting fire with fire by disapproving of the parent's ideology, we are combating a violent nature by calling it out.

We are all ignorant before we are anything else.

Everyone who is now capable of logical thinking was unable to do so at some point. Does it make any sense at all to say that people are choosing not to grow? We don't even know why cognitive growth happens in the first place, except to say that it has an evolutionary advantage.

And to those whom tradition rules over reason, we are the ignorant ones for letting something so clearly wrong exist at all. The devil's advocate speaks for the enemy. And I'm presenting their side because no one else seems to be willing or able, but this is not some game.

What I am trying to make clear is that they cannot respect people like us, we cannot respect people like them, and any hope of something good coming out of this is fast disappearing. The only way out is to realize that both perspectives are partly true, neither side is completely correct, and that both sides must allow the other to exist.

I also disapprove of what they did. And it's clear to me that a rational mindset, while still imperfect, is less flawed than a mythic-membership mindset. But I don't think we can afford to continue telling the other side that their way of thinking is stupid, wrong, and undeserving of respect, and then imagine that somehow things will change for the better.
 
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Sloan Kettering

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We are all ignorant before we are anything else.

Everyone who is now capable of logical thinking was unable to do so at some point. Does it make any sense at all to say that people are choosing not to grow? We don't even know why cognitive growth happens in the first place, except to say that it has an evolutionary advantage.

And to those whom tradition rules over reason, we are the ignorant ones for letting something so clearly wrong exist at all. The devil's advocate speaks for the enemy. And I'm presenting their side because no one else seems to be willing or able, but this is not some game.

What I am trying to make clear is that they cannot respect people like us, we cannot respect people like them, and any hope of something good coming out of this is fast disappearing. The only way out is to realize that both perspectives are partly true, neither side is completely correct, and that both sides must allow the other to exist.

I also disapprove of what they did. And it's clear to me that a rational mindset, while still imperfect, is less flawed than a mythic-membership mindset. But I don't think we can afford to continue telling the other side that their way of thinking is stupid, wrong, and undeserving of respect, and then imagine that somehow things will change for the better.

The only issue with this argument is that it isn't some case of some asshole that bullies other people; it's a case of parents that pushed their child to suicide through hatred and bigotry. There is no physical or psychological evidence to suggest there is some kind of cognitive divide to split such a basic responsibility between two different groups in society. There's certainly no evidence of a mental defect in her parents that would alleviate their responsibility. The only real difference is their own cognitive dissonance when it comes to a stubborn belief in religion, which is quite the common issue in modern day America.

We should not have to allow ignorant people that are clearly responsible for the deaths of other people walk around freely. They should lose custody of the rest of their children and face some amount of jail time. Such dangerous mindsets should not be tolerated, respected or pitied.
 

Alice

(>^.(>0.0)>
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We are all ignorant before we are anything else.

Everyone who is now capable of logical thinking was unable to do so at some point. Does it make any sense at all to say that people are choosing not to grow? We don't even know why cognitive growth happens in the first place, except to say that it has an evolutionary advantage.

And to those whom tradition rules over reason, we are the ignorant ones for letting something so clearly wrong exist at all. The devil's advocate speaks for the enemy. And I'm presenting their side because no one else seems to be willing or able, but this is not some game.

What I am trying to make clear is that they cannot respect people like us, we cannot respect people like them, and any hope of something good coming out of this is fast disappearing. The only way out is to realize that both perspectives are partly true, neither side is completely correct, and that both sides must allow the other to exist.

I also disapprove of what they did. And it's clear to me that a rational mindset, while still imperfect, is less flawed than a mythic-membership mindset. But I don't think we can afford to continue telling the other side that their way of thinking is stupid, wrong, and undeserving of respect, and then imagine that somehow things will change for the better.
I actually do agree with you. Love and compassion are the most effective vehicles of change. However, I do think a crime was committed, and they should be tried accordingly. Had this been some random bullies driving her to suicide, I'd be less inclined to call it a crime, but these were her parents. They had a legal obligation to protect her, and not only did they fail to do that, they actively fought against it.
 

Tek

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I don't take issue with her parents suffering negative consequences. I take issue that we categorically deny respect to their way of thinking, then demand that they respect our way of thinking, then resort to malicious and even violent punishment when they fail to do what we ourselves cannot do.

What looks like hatred, bigotry, and willful stupidity to us looks like the right and proper course of action to them. If there is some punishment levied, and it doesn't take this into account, then I say that we are failing as Americans, and we are failing as human beings.

If it's really not obvious that sentiments like "Such dangerous mindsets should not be tolerated, respected or pitied," are exactly, or perhaps even more, stubborn and ignorant and dangerous as what Leelah's parents did, then I'm wasting my time here.

If we're willing to disregard the mechanisms of cognitive growth just so we can sate our own fury, let's stop talking about justice and start talking about retribution.

If we can't accept that the conformist mindset performs a necessary function in society, I think we should go ahead and drop all the nukes, so we won't degenerate into a shameful mockery of decency before we all kill each other.
 

Yoshikko

the princess has awoken while the prince sleeps on
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Sorry but her parents know exactly what they did, even in death they couldn't bring their horrible selves to just refer to her as what she is like seriously, they know what they're doing. Stop trying to justify their abuse and neglect.
 
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