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Trans teen commits suicide after conversion therapy

Flushed

never eat raspberries
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As much as I don't want to debate this topic, I will. Just put aside sex and gender for a minute. The way I see it, at the core, this is about respect. Blatantly going against Leelah's wishes, wishes that are not harming anyone, is just pain disrespect, how can people so easily invalidate a simple request to be addressed as a certain name or gender? And it's not a simple thing people just ignore, as the parents continually and purposely go out of their way to misgender her and put her through conversion therapy. It causes her so much pain, how as a parent and as a human being can you inflict that on your child?
 
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The lead singer of the band Creed swears that he has had chips implanted in his brain while he was sleeping, and no longer controls his thoughts. He is unanimously accepted as mentally ill.

Can you explain how his psyche is any less mentally ill than a boy who swears he was meant to be a woman, and swears he is a woman inside of a man's body?

So not feeling comfortable with your physical appearance is mentally ill?
My teeth are all wonky, so changing that with, say, braces is being mentally ill?
Everyone who has a boob-job or a nose-job done is mentally ill?

Those who want to change themselves to satisfy themselves is being crazy. That's what I got from that.
 

sirboulevard

Apricorn Maniac
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The lead singer of the band Creed swears that he has had chips implanted in his brain while he was sleeping, and no longer controls his thoughts. He is unanimously accepted as mentally ill.

Can you explain how his psyche is any less mentally ill than a boy who swears he was meant to be a woman, and swears he is a woman inside of a man's body?

Because your GENDER is not deterimined by your physical SEX.

Gender = Mental State of being Male or Female (as in does your mind register as being male or female)

Sex = Physical State of being Male or Female (which set of reproductive organs do you have)

Generally speaking these two factors align themselves a person is typically gendered the same as their biological sex. However, someone is occasionally born whose mind is born of the gender opposite of their biological sex. That person is a transgendered individual.

Theres a difference between the two cases. I could go out and physically prove he didn't chips put in his head with an X-Ray. You can't prove that his mind or his soul desire to be female and are therefore mentally ill anymore than you can say someone who dislikes ice cream is mentally ill. Its a deviation from the norm, but there's nothing wrong with that.
 

obZen

Kill Your Heroes
397
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The lead singer of the band Creed swears that he has had chips implanted in his brain while he was sleeping, and no longer controls his thoughts. He is unanimously accepted as mentally ill.

Can you explain how his psyche is any less mentally ill than a boy who swears he was meant to be a woman, and swears he is a woman inside of a man's body?

People who are trans generally experience dysphoria since they were little; it is experiened their whole life.
As far as I'm concerned, they did not experience it as a result of any trauma post-birth.
Schizophrenia, for eg., is developed later on in life in most cases, and results from a genetic predisposition brought on by trauma.
Scott Stapp was comitted to a psych ward, was homeless, was off of his medication, has gone through multiple marriages, repeatedly tried to kill himself, etc.
His first divorce was in 1998. Read this. He was raised in a strict, religious home that pretty much scarred him for life ever since he was little.

You can't seriously compare Strapp's schizophrenia to a gender dysphoric. Reread my post about psychopathology's 4 D's.
 

Sloan Kettering

Robot Master
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This gender stuff is total afterschool special nonsense. Liking Deserate Housewives and wearing lipstick does not make me a "she". Societal norms are irrelevant, this kid thought he WAS a woman.

Not liking ice cream doesn't mean I'm mentally ill. Thinking I'm an ice cream cone trapped in a human's body does.

What if your brain was made of ice cream?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism#Brain_structure

http://www.transgendercare.com/medical/hormonal/brain_sex_diff.htm

http://www.newscientist.com/article...rences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.VKR4HXsn3SY
 

Alexander Nicholi

what do you know about computing?
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I'm really not too sure I should be as personally worked up as I am about this. I think I worry too much, but judging from the writing it's not someone I know. That's good.

I think this exposes a larger issue of conformity and closed mindedness (read: stupidity) within the constructs she was within, really. I'm not going to go bashing Christians as few and far between you'll find a real Samaritan, but then again if you look at this it really speaks otherwise. Those around her told her it was supposed to be 'this way' and refused any mind to see things in any other fashion, and even if they were still closed minded but more caring this may not have happened. It's clear that both a lack of caring and a presence of stupidity is shown here, and it's just really disappointing that after a thousand years of dumbass shit like this going on that it still is. It's almost like some people prefer the dark age of things, I dunno.

From my standpoint I try to approach these people with my open-mindedness that I've, and also look towards them with a sense of caring which brings things like forgiveness and understanding to their table, which would make someone like her feel a lot more comfortable. Chucking preconceived constructs and conventions has an incredibly large effect on people with gender dysphoria as one of their largest social issues is that very thing, in the context of the two genders. The most important thing you can show someone like that even if you don't love them is to show them that you care - putting an effort into being a true friend can be just as life-changing, if not more so.
 

Her

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The logic in this topic:

Scott Strapp is clearly mentally ill! You can't compare the two! I mean Strapp was homeless and tried to kill himself!

....wait, this kid killed himself because he didn't like the pronoun his parents referred to him with? There's absolutely NOTHING wrong in that dude's head! It's everyone else's fault!

Trust me. I took a psychology class at community college.

Please don't demean the issue when it is clear that many factors like severe emotional/mental abuse from her parents & their associates, abandonment of friends & family, utter despair and hopelessness all stemming from deeply ingrained transphobia present in her surroundings are responsible.

The trauma of conversion therapy on an already fragile mind combined with the perceived loss of support from everyone she had come into contact with/would come into contact with is far more serious than 'he didn't like the pronouns his parents referred to him with'.
 

Bounsweet

Fruit Pokémon
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It's pretty depressing to come back to this thread and see that it has turned into a debate on mental illness when it's a pretty straight-forward and unfortunately common situation.

This girl was freaking abused. Her parents pulled her from school for "defiling their Christian image" when she came out as gay as a stepping stone for easing people into accepting her as trans. They cut off her access to her friends by taking her phone. She had a neighborhood friend whose parents accepted her as the girl she was, and her parents forbade her from visiting their house.

All of that is what she went through in this past year, on top of having her entire identity ignored and even attempted to be erased! by the people who are supposed to love her and support her unconditionally in life. She was betrayed by her own parents, and that is something that is way too frequent in the trans community. That is the issue.

It would be wise to look a little bit further into what actually happened rather than glancing at a headline and making a half-assed "debate" out of how you personally perceive it.
 

Alexander Nicholi

what do you know about computing?
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This girl was freaking abused. Her parents pulled her from school for "defiling their Christian image" when she came out as gay as a stepping stone for easing people into accepting her as trans. They cut off her access to her friends by taking her phone. She had a neighborhood friend whose parents accepted her as the girl she was, and her parents forbade her from visiting their house.

Some people are really, incredibly, undeniably stupid. And self-righteous about that stupidity.

It's really vital to bear in mind that humans are a group-oriented species. We have a really incredibly hard time living alone and need others like us to want to live. If you've seen Castaway you'll know solitude can push people to want to die, and here it's twice as heavy as not only are you alone at the end of the day but those around you are aligned against you. If social neutrality is so deadly to humans then it's not hard to imagine how devastating it can be for it to be negative. And those who are set to care about you by a de facto responsibility of being parents or relatives being that way on top of it? How could anyone stand that?
 

Alice

(>^.(>0.0)>
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It's pretty depressing to come back to this thread and see that it has turned into a debate on mental illness when it's a pretty straight-forward and unfortunately common situation.
It isn't a debate. It's one guy blindly shouting his opinions while ignoring all evidence, research, and logic presented to him. Reminds me a bit of youtube trolls, especially those last two posts. He's being obnoxious and argumentative because he can't accept that he was wrong about something, and doesn't really care about the subject in the first place. I used to do that a lot when I was a kid too.
 
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Side stepping the whole mentally ill bit~

It's sad to see anyone committing suicide, let alone a young person who has been pushed to the edge by their parents. Since this happened, I've browsed Leelah's Tumblr page... It's pretty tragic that they went from saying 2014 was a good year to ending their life a few days later.

Suicide/Suicidal thoughts aren't something I can relate to or fully understand, but a 17 year old being pushed that far is a truly saddening event. I suppose the upside is, perhaps her wishes will be answered and awareness will be on the up - for both transgender issues and suicide in general.
 

PinkCatDragon

The 17 year old programer. Now byte off
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Ignoring therabbit
Transpobics need to start repecting new ideas.
there is scientific proof theres a diffrence between mental gender and physical gender.
and i think this topic has got out of hand. should we be argueing this or moaning our lost transgender sister.
RIP
 

twocows

The not-so-black cat of ill omen
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Don't even get me started on the "went home to Heaven" part, either.
I don't understand what's wrong with that. Whatever personal disagreement the parents had, however misguided, I'm sure they still were doing what they thought was in their child's best interest and that such a line was expressed as a hope that their child might find happiness in the afterlife.

So what gender are hermaphroditic people?
I believe that's generally something that the parents decide at birth, as it's such a rare phenomenon.

Gender is not binary, it is a spectrum - it is a social construct.
It is a social construct, I agree with that.

I don't think calling it a "spectrum" is the right way to go about it, though. Keep in mind what gender is: it's a loose set of personality and behavioral traits we expect from people that was originally based on their biological sex. Setting it up as a spectrum oversimplifies that and leads to some bad assumptions. First, that the two "ends" are in opposition to each other and are mutually exclusive. Second, that these two ends are indeed ends at all and not just a loosely defined group of these traits that describe some combination of biological behavior and societal expectation.

If we broke it down enough, we could come up with a long, long list of all of the traits associated with "male" and "female." With that list, we could take a look at someone and find that maybe they correlate to one or both of these, or maybe that they correlate to neither. It's just a set of personality traits. They're not necessarily mutually exclusive and they're certainly not the only personality traits that exist.

I think my conception of gender is more a set of two unrelated scales, either one of which can be more or less full. I think that's a better analogy than a spectrum. And regardless, there's then the third scale which is literally "every other possible behavioral trait" that eclipses both of them because gender is just a small, small part of human behavior. It traditionally existed to (1) make identifying a potential mate easier, to (2) make social interaction easier by letting us make basic assumptions about behavior, and to (3) define useful societal roles for people to further the goals of civilization. And while these are all still useful to varying degrees, I think our ability to define ourselves in our own way outweighs all of them. And I really think our obsession with the idea of gender is misplaced and there's so much more to human behavior than that. I find it worrisome that people are so obsessed with the idea in the first place.

The fact that the very religion that goes on and on about equality, respect and tolerance goes and persecutes those who don't feel that they, themselves are what they really want to be and want to become someone else as so to fulfill their objective and achieve happiness, is just very, very grim irony and hipocrisy.
The religion doesn't do that, some of the people who claim to follow it do. That's an important distinction.

In short, Religion causes most of this worlds problems.
The problems you're speaking of are not caused by religion, they're caused by some of the people who claim to follow a religion. And saying that all of the world's problems are caused by these people is a vast exaggeration.

Even though most religions teach peace, tolerance and other decent values, religious people are constantly at war. Even on their own soil, people are persecuting their brethren.
I think South Park did it best with their two-parter "Go God Go." If you really think the world would be better off with no religion, you're deluded. The problem isn't that people are religious, it's that people don't think for themselves and are quick to generalize people, judge other people based on those generalizations, and then condemn those people based on their faulty judgment.
 
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I never said 'all', I said 'Most', I mean, going back in history... The Crusades? Hussein? The Taliban? Libya? Islamic State? Come on man, bar the two World Wars (Well even in WW2 Hitler persecuted those who did not meet his model of a perfect human, despite meeting none of his own requirements himself.) almost every major conflict IN HISTORY was due to race, religion or in Hitler's case, sexual preference, it's because two people disagree, and won't leave eachother alone. If they hated eachother so much, shouldn't they just pretend they didn't exist?
I do have a bad experience with Christianity in particular. All people need to do is stop and think if the religion they follow is actually right and just? Is it moral? Often religious people are very nice, I mean I was friends with Muslim twins and they were the most caring people in the world, but there are those who just don't get the very religion they believe in, I mean, 'Thou shalt not kill?', which means everyone who ever killed someone in, say, the military, is a sinner? Is no longer deemed a member of that religion unless they pray for forgiveness? There are those who are Christian who happily dispatch enemies of their own country (And sometimes people who are of the same blood.) in the name of God when God was the one who laid down these rules, and people break these rules all the time and nobody seems to care. Religion is full of hipocrisy at times and this incident only reinforces this fact.
 

Her

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Let's not use this thread to push some Reddit-level anti-religion propaganda.
 
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I'm not. I'm saying people are using valid beliefs as excuses for this. That is not religion.
 

jAvAcOlA

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I don't think calling it a "spectrum" is the right way to go about it, though. Keep in mind what gender is: it's a loose set of personality and behavioral traits we expect from people that was originally based on their biological sex. Setting it up as a spectrum oversimplifies that and leads to some bad assumptions. First, that the two "ends" are in opposition to each other and are mutually exclusive. Second, that these two ends are indeed ends at all and not just a loosely defined group of these traits that describe some combination of biological behavior and societal expectation.

I don't understand why gender even matters. Like you said, it's nothing but made-up social norms by society. How is being a certain sex preventing people from living their lives? If someone wants to have sex with the same sex, cross-dress, wear makeup, etc...what's stopping them?
 
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I don't understand why gender even matters. Like you said, it's nothing but made-up social norms by society. How is being a certain sex preventing people from living their lives? If someone wants to have sex with the same sex, cross-dress, wear makeup, etc...what's stopping them?
Society does. People never seem to take well to people who are gender non-conforming in general. Like... even if your gender identity matches with how others perceive you based on your physical reality, you may still get people persecuting you for doing the above things you listed. If the people that shun you are your friends and family, that stuff can really, really hurt... Especially when you are still young and need support.
 
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This thread is making me so angry.

One of my top best friends is a female-to-male trans and when he asked me to use male pronouns it took me about three seconds to say "okay" and never looked back. Because it takes absolutely no effort to do so and the benefits for him are immense, namely, feeling accepted and at ease with himself. Common sense is helping people accept their identities, not fight them until they match your idea of what their identity should be like. That's no love. There is nothing more personal and individual than one's concept of self identity. Society should have no say whatsoever on that, because it's not society's job (or family's, or anybody's at all) to decide about someone's own identity.

This is as easy as asking yourself, "do you really want the best for that person? Or do you want them to fit your idea of what is 'good'?". Because maybe your preconceived ideas of what is right aren't really the best for them.

Last year I was living in Argentina, where there is an identity law that essentially allows everybody to request new IDs if they aren't happy with their current gender identity. President Fernández herself handed a new ID to the first girl (on a male body) who asked for it. The event was immensely touching, and that girl, that human being, was happy to be acknowledged as who she was. Hundreds of people have followed suit. Brimstone from hell has yet to flood the streets of Buenos Aires.
 
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