Trans teen commits suicide after conversion therapy

[Her]

Lack of empathy - inability or unwillingness to see another's perspective - is exactly what puts any and all of us 'on their level'. It's what we have in common with the Alcorns.

I understand how much Leelah's story upsets you. It's clear from your posts. and I've personally dealt with bigotry all my life, so I get it, I've lived it. But while your argument is passionate, it isn't logical.

Let's say we do fight fire with fire. As Alex has suggested, let's put them on the stand and take away everything they have left. When they tell us how they see the world, and how Leelah's perspective was wrong, then we'll tell them how we see the world, and how their perspective is wrong. And we will become the oppressors; we will be the same.

There's not much I can say that hasn't been explained to you by others in the last few posts, but I can assure you that we understand their perspective. They were doing what they thought was their right as parents, they were doing what they felt was best for their child. If this was a case of say, not letting their child access the internet or something, then your devil's advocacy would be entirely relevant. But there is a point where empathy for their situation has to be reconciled with the fact that their perspective caused the death of an innocent child. What is logical has to give way to what is ethical.

 

[Tek]

What is logical has to give way to what is ethical.

Evidently we have very different ideas of what is ethical and what is not. I have nothing more to add.

 

[Polonaise]

I won't reveal my whole thoughts about this situation, but I'm going to be starting off by saying this: Everyone has their own opinion and beliefs, and we should respect it. If you've gone this far to make someone else feel like less of a person because of their beliefs, you need to start changing your attitude. I feel a little indifferent about this news, but here's part of what I think.

As a raised Catholic, I was raised to believe self-harm was wrong, but if you are too depressed and don't realize it, then it's not wrong. Hard to explain, but I'm sure a lot of you guys know what I mean. Her (I'm writing the pronouns as if he/she were female, because that was his/her gender when he/she died, if I recall correctly) family drove her to it, so it's not her fault. It was her family's fault that she died. If she wants to be known as female, then let her be known as female! It doesn't harm anyone, except her, because her family kept calling her male.

The point is that you should respect anyone's wishes/beliefs, and you shouldn't make them feel any less of a person because of it. I could write a lot more to this post, but I feel like I'd be offending people if I did, and I'd bring a lot of religious aspects to this.

In her suicide note she said that she wanted people to be accepted. So why don't people set aside their differences and accept each other? Rest in peace.

 

[Sloan Kettering]

I don't take issue with her parents suffering negative consequences. I take issue that we categorically deny respect to their way of thinking, then demand that they respect our way of thinking, then resort to malicious and even violent punishment when they fail to do what we ourselves cannot do.

I really don't care about respecting the way other people think; I will reserve the right to believe someone is wrong, but that's completely irrelevant. It has nothing to do with their viewpoints, it's the fact that their actions drove their child to suicide.

What looks like hatred, bigotry, and willful stupidity to us looks like the right and proper course of action to them. If there is some punishment levied, and it doesn't take this into account, then I say that we are failing as Americans, and we are failing as human beings.

We would only be failing if we were punishing them for thinking a certain way. They can be full of hate all they want, no one remotely cares. Their ACTIONS are what need to be punished. They abused and neglected their child, just because they THOUGHT it was okay is not a good enough excuse. Is it okay for those parents that give their children bleach enemas to do so because they believe it's cleansing them of sin? Is it okay for a parent to beat or starve their children because they believe it "builds character"? Of course not.

If it's really not obvious that sentiments like "Such dangerous mindsets should not be tolerated, respected or pitied," are exactly, or perhaps even more, stubborn and ignorant and dangerous as what Leelah's parents did, then I'm wasting my time here.

How is it remotely ignorant? Let's just give a hypothetical for moment. If we were to remove all the people that would harm the freedoms of another person from society, how would that negatively affect society (other than a drop in numbers)? Free speech only goes so far. When one persons hatred turns to action and strips away the freedoms of another human being, it is no longer freedom of speech.

If we're willing to disregard the mechanisms of cognitive growth just so we can sate our own fury, let's stop talking about justice and start talking about retribution.

If we can't accept that the conformist mindset performs a necessary function in society, I think we should go ahead and drop all the nukes, so we won't degenerate into a shameful mockery of decency before we all kill each other.

This is still completely irrelevant to the fact that two parents pushed their child to commit suicide. No one is trying to get retribution because they happened to be dicks. We all want justice for severe abuse and neglect.

 

[Centipede Chan]

My god this story angers me so much and made me cry. I am a transgender person myself, male to female, and what her parents did to her was not right at all. It's so hard to understand people like us, especially the more ignorant. My sister is kinda like that. She respects my life style, but refuses to call me by she and such because "I don't have a vagina yet so I am not a girl." *sigh* oh well, hopefully some people get their head out their butt when they hear this story.

 

[Kanzler]

I really don't think there's a case to punish the parents legally. Other parents have taken similar actions in different situations without any kind of suicide for even lesser reasons, and it's difficult to argue that they are culpable in other than a tangential way. The parents were wrong, but I'm cautious to say that their actions call for legal punishment.

 

[Sloan Kettering]

I really don't think there's a case to punish the parents legally. Other parents have taken similar actions in different situations without any kind of suicide for even lesser reasons, and it's difficult to argue that they are culpable in other than a tangential way. The parents were wrong, but I'm cautious to say that their actions call for legal punishment.

There's unfortunately no real precedent for emotional abuse leading to suicide.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

I'm kind of bent here, because I would need to see exactly what the parents were doing before any charges can be filed. I do feel that their behaviour post-mortum is very disrespectful and absolutely uncalled for, but this behaviour ultimately wouldn't have lead to her suicide.

I guess I'm going to take a personal perspective because I've been in similar shoes. Growing up, I had my own struggles with my physical body versus my identity, some I still struggle with today. In this way I guess she was a lot braver than me since she went upfront with her parents with her identity, either that or she felt that she had no choice. I never presented my urges to the family because I knew they were "wrong", I guess, and my parents tried to weed out anything that was "crazy". Whenever I did something that they considered "crazy" it was usually a long, drawn out debacle of which there was no escape and attempts to curb this behaviour. Because of this, I personally was afraid to "pretend", so to speak, which is something that clearly she was capable of doing. I got extremely stressed because of this inability to "pretend" and a combination for this need, shame for the obsession and my past actions on my body for it and the fear of being crazy, I almost killed myself.

Now, if I committed suicide, would it be their fault?

It's not that I don't believe that the parents did nothing wrong - they clearly did - however, some things that can push someone to suicide would not be perceived as such potentially to others. Personally I don't believe they intentionally pushed their child to suicide, and I think that if I killed myself that my parents would not have intentionally pushed me to suicide. Yes, it happened regardless, but intent and motive are important factors to consider when pushing someone legally.

I think in my situation that my parents had no clue that what they were doing was harming me, and it's pretty clear through their actions to this day that they genuinely believe they are being "good parents" by trying to curb "bad" behaviour. And curbing "bad behaviour" is necessary to do as a good parent, or else you have extremely unruly children. How are they even supposed to begin to sympathize with the fact that, because of an intense rift in my identity, that I feel like a part of my body doesn't belong, like a cancer or tumor, to the point where I would willingly damage myself to get rid of that part of my body? How are they even supposed to begin to empathize with that sort of feeling? How am I supposed to explain to them that, in secrecy, I have caused permanent damage to some parts of my body because of this rift? How am I supposed to explain that this is something I think about every day that affects my decisions so much that it's become a fundamental part of my life? Hell, I already have enough trouble trying to scratch the surface with a therapist.

And based on posts in other threads, I understand that these will almost undoubtedly be shunned by society and I have to do everything in my power to manage my condition behind a curtain of darkness.

But there were many days that this conflict almost caused me to kill myself, because I thought I was "too crazy" to be able to do anything, even though nobody knew about my little secret. If I did kill myself, would my parents be murderers? If they knew and still called me crazy, would they still be murderers? A few individuals I saw in other threads would resort to the same behaviour, are you murderers?

How are people even supposed to empathize with the feeling of gender dysphoria? To many parents, they might see it as a horrible mental illness that has to be cured, and based on how much medication she was taking, it's pretty clear that this thought, along with their religious beliefs, were what actually motivated them to act in this way, not the conscious decision to murder their daughter.

And before you say anything, a lot of different people are treated this way. There's a huge problem in the autism community where parents are condescending, even absolutely torturing, their autistic children, even in mild cases. It's a problem in understanding what a condition is, not just "evil religious people". Blind religious faith is part of it but it's mainly due to the complete inability to understand what a condition is and therefore trying to eradicate it before it can hurt the individual. In both cases, this is the worst thing you can do. Therefore, the best thing you can do is educate others about what a condition entails. Education on gender dysphoria will help especially with cases like these, at least a good portion of them.

I wonder though, based on all those meds, if that's what made her actually cross the bridge between depression and suicidal.

It's just weird, seeing it on the other side of the fence. I've personally been in those years. I wonder what made me stick around and her to give in. Maybe it was the meds; I was never given meds in my teen years and it seemed like those dosages were pretty high.

Perhaps I'm too different. I don't know.

As Tek stated (which I think has been ignored for very heated opinions), if the intent of the parents was not suicide, then you can't really charge them, and the loss of their child is punishment enough. Do I agree with their actions? Hell no, and I think they're horrible people. But like Tek said, you do have to look at things objectively. I don't think Tek supports the parents, rather, I think that he is playing a bit of Devil's Advocate to get a more rounded out opinion.

Again, it's easy to call them murderers if you dehumanize them. But murder needs some conscious intent. And frankly, I don't think they were trying to consciously kill their kid because she was transgender, I think they were consciously trying to change them, to fit their ideal of who they really are, which, while absolutely not condoned, is not exactly "unfathomable" or "completely evil" either.

I think the only charge that can be filed against these people is likely one based in negligence. Possible manslaughter but this case is fairly unique and I think that would probably be pushing it legally.

 

[Tek]

I suppose it's not very mature to just walk away like that. I lost my temper back there. I can't know directly what's in anyone else's mind, so I can't say for certain what anyone else desires.

Is it okay for those parents that give their children bleach enemas to do so because they believe it's cleansing them of sin? Is it okay for a parent to beat or starve their children because they believe it "builds character"? Of course not. 
...
 No one is trying to get retribution because they happened to be dicks. We all want justice for severe abuse and neglect.

Let's assume that we are honest and accurate in declaring that we all want justice. Why then do we disagree? Probably because we don't agree on what 'justice' is in the first place.



Isn't the point of punishment to help them see their mistakes, and not make those mistakes again? That's what I believe in.

Punishment reinforces the seriousness of their actions, deters the behavior, and - let's be completely honest - makes the rest of us feel better. But we cannot ignore that punishment will engender bitterness and resentment. Ever had an authority figure say that you were lying when you knew you were not?

I say that if we are going to punish these parents, if we are going to illustrate their flaws to them, then we have a responsibility to honor and express their strengths. This way, if they are ready, they'll allow others to help them grow and learn.



Yet already I hear the chorus: "They're not strong, they're stubborn religious fools!" "They get it, they just don't care!" "Why be kind to them when they made Leelah suffer!" "Fuck those ignorant selfish bastards!"

But isn't it the height of arrogance to declare that their actions are wrong regardless of their perspective? It's your own perspective that determines what is wrong in the first place! And it stands to reason that from a more developed perspective, what we consider to be fair looks barbaric and crude.

Ya'll don't have to agree with me, nor do you need my permission to disagree. But I say with certainty that we must do differently, we must do better.

I say it's time to redefine justice.

If we were to remove all the people that would harm the freedoms of another person from society, how would that negatively affect society?

...

When one persons hatred turns to action and strips away the freedoms of another human being, it is no longer freedom of speech.

 

[curiousnathan]

since we seem to be going that way, question: what do you think should happen to leelah's parents?

They should be prosecuted for murder.

 

[Kanzler]

They should be prosecuted for murder.

I disagree. Murder requires two things: 1) the killing of a human being by another human being, and 2) malicious premeditation. The first isn't true at all (and would also rule out manslaughter) while I don't think you could demonstrate the second - it's not like the parents wanted their child to die. I don't even think there's a case for negligent homicide, for many teens commit suicide while distressed by what they think of their parents' actions yet we don't charge that parents should be convicted of homicide for "not doing enough".

 

[curiousnathan]

I disagree. Murder requires two things: 1) the killing of a human being by another human being, and 2) malicious premeditation. The first isn't true at all (and would also rule out manslaughter) while I don't think you could demonstrate the second - it's not like the parents wanted their child to die. I don't even think there's a case for negligent homicide, for many teens commit suicide while distressed by what they think of their parents' actions yet we don't charge that parents should be convicted of homicide for "not doing enough".

I disagree.

They should be prosecuted for murder.

 

[Polonaise]

Technically, it is and isn't murder. The family didn't kill her themselves, but they lead her to think there was no choice, so I guess it's a spiritual murder, in a way. They still should be punished regardless though.

 

[Her]

I disagree. Murder requires two things: 1) the killing of a human being by another human being, and 2) malicious premeditation. The first isn't true at all (and would also rule out manslaughter) while I don't think you could demonstrate the second - it's not like the parents wanted their child to die. I don't even think there's a case for negligent homicide, for many teens commit suicide while distressed by what they think of their parents' actions yet we don't charge that parents should be convicted of homicide for "not doing enough".

Negligent homicide would be the ideal charge I'd like to see be pushed through the court (it's a pipe dream though), if there was a prosecutor daring enough to push for it (Alexandra Cabot from SVU hopefully). But given the fact that they relented once Leelah gave them what they wanted, it probably couldn't happen. Then again, the fact that their previous abuse eventually resulted in her suicide, it could be put forward, I guess.

At the very least they could get child endangerment on a misdemeanor charge.

 

[Cerberus87]

since we seem to be going that way, question: what do you think should happen to leelah's parents?

Divine punishment. C'mon, it would serve them right! :P

Seriously, though, these attempts to change gender identification are terrible, because you'll probably drive a trans person insane. I'm all for research on what causes it, but it could easily be misused to hinder or even eliminate trans people.

Anyway, people should just be allowed to live however they see themselves.

 

[Alice]

I disagree.

They should be prosecuted for murder.

Ehh, I think that's too strong. Realistically, the best we can probably hope for is something along the lines of child abuse, if anything. I do think Negligent Manslaughter fits best myself, but murder isn't quite accurate.

I disagree. Murder requires two things: 1) the killing of a human being by another human being, and 2) malicious premeditation. The first isn't true at all (and would also rule out manslaughter) while I don't think you could demonstrate the second - it's not like the parents wanted their child to die. I don't even think there's a case for negligent homicide, for many teens commit suicide while distressed by what they think of their parents' actions yet we don't charge that parents should be convicted of homicide for "not doing enough".

There are specific things that they did that make this a crime in my mind. Had they just said "no", and she still killed herself, then I would attribute the suicide solely to dysphoria. However, they continually abused her, and took away any hope of her receiving help from any source. They intentionally undermined all attempts she made to get help. I mean, if you intentionally prevented someone with an obviously fatal injury from going to the hospital, and they died, are you not responsible? Even if you didn't cause the injury, you prevented them from receiving help that would save their life. Same thing, really... just with an emotional injury rather than a physical one.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

I disagree.

They should be prosecuted for murder.

Unfortunately, the world doesn't run on gut feelings. Actually, that might be a good thing...

Anyways, no, they cannot be charged with murder, unless they did one of the following:

• Had plans for killing her
• Told her to kill herself

Unless evidence comes out that they did any of those things, they cannot be charged with murder. It's important to consider the reason why - even though in this case it's obvious that Leelah was abused or at the very perceivable least, neglected, there is no direct link between conscious actions that the parents made and her suicide.

"BUT THEIR TRANSPHOBIA--"

It's pretty clear that they do not recognize gender dysphoria as an actual type of human condition and, because of their ignorance, turned to the Bible to attempt to "heal" their son, at least in their eyes. This is the backing behind all "trans/gay therapy" camps or whatever. Transphobia isn't inherent evil - it's rooted in not understanding what would drive some people to do some things that are divergent behaviour. It is not hard to argue that they were doing what they thought was correct, and therefore were grossly negligent. There is no law that requires parents to recognize their identities, so there is no penalty for not doing so (such a law would be too vague to actually enact).

You could charge them possibly with child negligence or abuse. Which are not little crimes. But there's no way they are logically going to get charged with murder. Even if the imaginary "identity law" that I suggested would not be able to charge these individuals with murder.

As stated prior, if I committed suicide because of how my parents tried to weed out my body identity disorder (something that can cause permanent and irreversible damage if completed) then it would be very unlikely that people would even mention this death outside of the news. Certainly nobody would be advocating to press murder charges, but some may consider it child abuse, and may try to press charges in that direction.

In the eyes of a lot of ignorant parents, gender dysphoria has the same permanent consequences - because they simply cannot understand what would cause someone to feel that way, and they think about how they might have regret for such a decision.

I feel like a lot of people who are saying they should be charged with murder are solely saying it because the victim was transgender (and is viewed as a martyr) - since this kind of stuff happens quite a bit (I knew someone in high school who later killed himself for similar problems within the family) it's absolutely imperative to treat each case individually. Regardless of whether or not Leelah was a martyr, martyrdom is completely out of the hands of those who the martyr opposes so it's inherently unfair to simply claim that they deserve somehow worse punishment than all the other parents who pushed their kids to suicide.

Outside of Leelah's case I'm iffy anyways to claim it's just "parent's fault" anyways (and it's possible that other factors in her life pushed her down this route) since quite a few times it's a large group of factors - loneliness, poor performance, lack of will to do anything, ect.. These things all build up alongside any potential abuse from a parent as well, which further strips away the hope that someone might have.

Your intense feelings do not equate to justice.

 

[curiousnathan]

snip

Not to be rude, but I don't care if they can't be charged with murder because they don't meet certain criteria. Someone asked how I'd like to see them punished, and I want them to be charged with murder. You can dive into technicalities all you wish.

Side note: Your idea of justice is different to mine. Justice is subjective despite common claim.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

Not to be rude, but I don't care if they can't be charged with murder because they don't meet certain criteria. Someone asked how I'd like to see them punished, and I want them to be charged with murder. You can dive into technicalities all you wish.

Side note: Your idea of justice is different to mine. Justice is subjective despite common claim.

It's not a matter of our views in justice being different. It's a matter of how justice in the United States actually works in reality. I understand that you feel like you want them to be charged with murder. This will never happen and several people have explained why.

This is not to say that I don't feel that the parents are deserving of punishment. I and many other are very angry with the parent's actions. I'm certainly not defending them, and I think the others pointing out the problem with your claim feel similarly.

Your kind of "justice" is dangerous because you can charge people with greater crimes simply because of how you feel, aka "justice is subjective". These "certain criteria" exist to prevent such gut-based reactions and to provide an actual, egalitarian sense of justice, so that people are actually treated equally.

"Subjective Justice" is the same so called "justice" that plagued minorities in the earlier days of this country, and even to this day in some places. Flipping the tables does nothing but encourage the problem in a different orientation. Subjective Justice does not work and has been slowly been replaced with non-subjective forms because of the inequality that it causes.

Also, this has nothing to do with "perception of justice", it's that I feel that the parents should be punished in the same way as any other set of parents who clearly pushed their kid to suicide.

 

[Kanzler]

Not to be rude, but I don't care if they can't be charged with murder because they don't meet certain criteria. Someone asked how I'd like to see them punished, and I want them to be charged with murder. You can dive into technicalities all you wish.

Side note: Your idea of justice is different to mine. Justice is subjective despite common claim.

Well, it's still not very just, giving the parents a charge for something that they did not do. Perhaps you mean to give them a hard sentence, not a nonsensical charge considering what they did.