We've done this too many times now

[Ice1]

Guns in America are a super complicated and nuanced issue. I often see Americans preaching their greatness (I recognize that it's not a general attitude perse. It's really dependent on the community, of course) and the way their bring safety, while I often see non-Americans just argue for straight up outlawing them. I think both perspectives do miss an awful lot of nuance. The problem's certainly not one to solve with inaction, and I don't think a big part of America's mindset is well suited to dealing with the problem.

The first part of the discussion is recognizing that every shooting tends to be a mental health issue. The other part of that knowledge is that just blaming it on mental health doesn't solve the entirety of the problem. The problem is as much a gun problem as it is a problem about the mental health stigma.

Secondly, it's important to dismiss some common sophisms you see about the topic. "If we start regulating guns, why don't we regulate cars?" is one I often encounter, and immediately it should be clear that regulations do exist about those topics. New safety precautions are often adopted whenever a new avenue of attack is discovered. Or a new way of harm in general. Cars have dealt with large-scale attack precautions, such as concrete roadblocks, as well as personal, the collapsed suspension. Any other common form of person-to-person violence has regulations as well. The point is to find and create regulations that balance safety and utility. You don't outlaw cars, because their primary goal is travel. So, for the sake of the gun argument, you need to pinpoint their primary use.
The other sophism is that making guns illegal will only remove them from the hands of good people, because criminals will still get their hands of guns. Reason why that's a valid argument is that that's literally how all law works. It's what defines a criminal.

Now, in America, the primary gun use is luckily a lack of use, as it's something that plays into the theatre of safety. The problem is that it's not only a prop, but also has a dangerous effect. Guns protect you, sadly, it's from guns.

So the logical step would be to say, guns are illegal now, problem solved, but that doesn't make guns disappear. And I think that's America's fundamental problem. There are a huge amount of unregistered firearms in the states, and a return policy will not return them, in all likelihood. They're too ingrained in the culture.

So regulations it is, but there you fall into the same hole. It's incredibly difficult to regulate guns currently because it's not a new thing that's coming to the market, it's not easily discovered, it's not used all that often. The moment you find an illicit gun is most likely after usage.

Arguments often given in favor of gun possession are hunting, protection against animals and sport. Sports easily solved. Gun doesn't leave the range. Its how it's done in Europe. I do admit that I don't know the exact details of American gun-sports, so I have no clue what the infrastructure is for that. But, regardless, guns do not need to be a widespread legality to allow for gunsports. Hunting's a valid one. They are also specialized rifles rarely used in the murder of a person. Strong vetting, limiting the kinds of assecories and weapons allowed. All-in-all, the guns you want to prevent the commoncy of is the handgun. Not the hunting rifle. Protection against animals is the most valid reason to own a fire arm. If you live in a wildlife state, it is needed to defend yourself from a bear on your porch. No arguments against that.

So, when it comes to the nitty-gritty, the reality is handguns. The great thing about guns is that they have very clear manufactorers. It's easy to trace their origins, because they need to be produced by bigger companies. Drugs like cannabis is a lot harder to regulate, because the production is so easily done surreptitiously. Gun-production? Na ah, that happens very visibily. So, stopping the spread is easier than for most illicit wares. Again we arrive at the same core problem. Guns are already too widespread in American society. The only thing that's gonna stop that is a giant shift in mindset.

I believe that shift in mindset is needed. It doesn't have to be one leap and we're there. That's unreasonable, forgoing the nuance I started this post with. What you want is a defetishization of firearms. Guns should be seen as dangerous, harmful and as tools of murder. They need to be less appealing, and less rooted in the feeling of safety. Because that's an important factor as well. People don't feel safe without a gun, that points to some fundemental failings of the government. Get rid of the need to own a gun before you take away the gun.

Guns need to be entirely disassociated from the aspect of fun, as well. At least in the public spheres. Privately owned weapons should lose any levity. Only ranges should be allowed to carry that atmosphere, when it comes to firearms. And that's a difficult change to incite. All of it is.

I kinda just rambled, and I have to say that in the end I don't know if I really made a point. I just think it's an incredibly difficult issue. All I know is that there is a problem, nobody denies it, and I think less guns solve that. But you can't be blunt about it, you can't dismiss a culture that way. Even if there's heavy disagreement, it's just ineffective. Discussions like this always benefit from a view of pragmatism, I feel, rather than idealism. Yes, no guns, great. That's not an idea, that's not steps, that's not an end point. All it does is dismiss the side that feels like it needs firearms for one reason or another, and a dismissal like that is never beneficial.

A small addendum to this post regarding the second amendment: I personally believe that any appeal to tradition is as weak an argument as an appeal to emotion. The existence of the second amendment doesn't make it a good piece of legislation because being extant doesn't dictate quality. It just sets a precedent for being extant. To argue in support of guns, arguments besides just the existence is needed. Because in the end, you're arguing over whether its existence is justified. You can't use an end goal as an argument for that endgoal. This kinda applies to any form of tradition in my eyes.

 

[Gigadweeb]

Lmfao. Most these countries have nowhere near the population as America. Look at lots of the middle east, most central America, Mexico, etc. Lots the cities in those areas got banned gun laws yet have the highest murder rates in the world and mass murders happen whenever they feel like it but you wouldn't know that, right? It comes down to governments not whether or not guns are legal or not. Criminals with be criminals, terrorist will be terrorist, and evil people will be evil. You need to realize America's fucked and it's not because of guns. Try a new argument.

And to be real with you.. I'd choose Australia, Canada, even lots of cities in Europe over America to live in. America's a fucking disaster and shit progressively gets worse.



So I'm automatically a conspiracy theorists cause I don't agree with your liberal viewpoints on guns? Gtfoh and come back when you have an actual argument. But that's expected from an anti gun activist. Or you need to learn to read in context, I said IF it were to happen. Comprende?

Also, not saying it's the case but where is proof these school shootings aren't created by the government? Just asking because I feel there might be a few holes here. The media can and will portray what they want and skew the truth a lot more than you think or cover something that never happened to push an agenda and get those sucked into the media on board (especially America's media). It's called a broadcast for a reason, and they're all actors. Just saying I wouldn't be surprised is all. It's also funny most of these reporters and news anchor hosts don't know what they're talking about and how they push bias agendas. It's why it's called "fake news". You also know, those people you mentioned... Yeah, they do own the most power? Same with Trump. Anyone that voted Trump for his "make America great again" is a sucker. If given the chance both Hillary and Trump would turn to tyranny. It's fucked because people that are far right can't grasp Trump is actually left. But slowly more and more Americans are starting to see the holes.

There's many reasons I don't follow a particular political belief. They're all corrupt in their own ways. But if I were to tell you politics is to divide and conquer would you believe me? You don't need politics to have an opinion. We control us, not politics unless we allow the politicians and media to do it. All it does is cause arguments over the same shit over and over and over and over and over and over and nothing ever changes. It's time to wake the fuck up.

'Waking up?' Pal, I think you need to do some waking up if you unironically think Trump is some form of leftist. He's a neoconservative.

Back onto the main topic at hand, the only way you're going to prevent gun violence in the US is a cultural shift. Gun control just angers the rural working-class, who are then pushed to vote for reactionaries because the neoliberals at the Democrat Party have no fucking clue how to actually gain the support and instead opt for just sitting on the status quo. A lot of those pushing for gun control are in the upper echelons of society. They don't give a shit about you or how many kiddies die at school, they'll just take any opportunity to make sure their power is consolidated.

No, what the US needs to do is to take a good long look at itself, move towards actual leftist ideals (Marx and Lenin supported the arming of the working class) and start addressing issues like toxic masculinity, demonisation of those with mental illnesses, violence against minorities and bringing those in impoverished areas up to a higher standard. That is what will help address violent crime, not going "Nuh-uh, you can't have that! We don't actually want to address the flaws of our society!" You won't see that under the current two main parties though, and you likely never will unless a second American Revolution happens.

 

[ShinyUmbreon189]

'Waking up?' Pal, I think you need to do some waking up if you unironically think Trump is some form of leftist. He's a neoconservative.

Back onto the main topic at hand, the only way you're going to prevent gun violence in the US is a cultural shift. Gun control just angers the rural working-class, who are then pushed to vote for reactionaries because the neoliberals at the Democrat Party have no ****ing clue how to actually gain the support and instead opt for just sitting on the status quo. A lot of those pushing for gun control are in the upper echelons of society. They don't give a **** about you or how many kiddies die at school, they'll just take any opportunity to make sure their power is consolidated.

No, what the US needs to do is to take a good long look at itself, move towards actual leftist ideals (Marx and Lenin supported the arming of the working class) and start addressing issues like toxic masculinity, demonisation of those with mental illnesses, violence against minorities and bringing those in impoverished areas up to a higher standard. That is what will help address violent crime, not going "Nuh-uh, you can't have that! We don't actually want to address the flaws of our society!" You won't see that under the current two main parties though, and you likely never will unless a second American Revolution happens.

Actually Trumps a centralist, can be right and left at the same time. Not to mention he's full of shit 90% of the time.

Why should America go towards leftists ideas? Because you're democrat therefore America should lean towards you're political beliefs? Sounds closed minded to me. that worked oh so well with Obama. How about we just get rid of political parties and politicians work together instead of against eachother? Stop blaming the other side for this and that when in reality, they're all to blame because they don't focus on the real issues in America. Instead they bicker back and forth over the problems and never come to a resolution. As I said, you don't need political parties to have an opinion. That's how you fix America. When it comes to gang violence, there's not really much you can do. Criminals will be criminals.

 

[Gigadweeb]

Actually Trumps a centralist, can be right and left at the same time. Not to mention he's full of shit 90% of the time.

Why should America go towards leftists ideas? Because you're democrat therefore America should lean towards you're political beliefs? Sounds closed minded to me. that worked oh so well with Obama. How about we just get rid of political parties and politicians work together instead of against eachother? Stop blaming the other side for this and that when in reality, they're all to blame because they don't focus on the real issues in America. Instead they bicker back and forth over the problems and never come to a resolution. As I said, you don't need political parties to have an opinion. That's how you fix America. When it comes to gang violence, there's not really much you can do. Criminals will be criminals.

>Actually Trumps a centralist, can be right and left at the same time. Not to mention he's full of shit 90% of the time.

latter part is true, but former is pretty blatantly false. Trump is focused on giving power to corporations via less restrictions on sales and tax cuts. Centrists are welfarist capitalists (social democrats) like Sanders.
Also in what world can you be left and right at the same time? Call me back when people like Paul Ryan start advocating for the means of production to be handed to the workers.

>Why should America go towards leftists ideas? Because you're democrat therefore America should lean towards you're political beliefs? Sounds closed minded to me. that worked oh so well with Obama.

1. I'm not a Democrat, even if I did live in the US I wouldn't be. They're neoliberals mixed in with social democrats, none of their policies interest me and quite frankly...

2. I'm sick of everyone thinking Obama, or Democrats in general are leftists. They're not. Leftists are socialists. Obama is pretty blatantly not, considering he was for free trade and keeping the economic system of capitalism intact in the US.

3. because it's the only way you're going to see a decrease in gun violence. Do you think any of the major parties give a rat's arse about the health and safety of the working class?

> How about we just get rid of political parties and politicians work together instead of against eachother? Stop blaming the other side for this and that when in reality, they're all to blame because they don't focus on the real issues in America. Instead they bicker back and forth over the problems and never come to a resolution.

Cool then. What are the real issues? How are you going to be able to implement any sort of political movement in a capitalist society without a state? How are you going to get influential, wealthy people to worth with each other outside of them fucking over the proletariat?

>Instead they bicker back and forth over the problems and never come to a resolution. As I said, you don't need political parties to have an opinion. That's how you fix America. When it comes to gang violence, there's not really much you can do. Criminals will be criminals.

So what you're saying is, you have no real solutions, you just want everyone to get along with each other with no solutions of how to do that. Individualism doesn't work, mate. I really don't like any mainstream political parties in any Western country (apart from maybe Corbyn's Labour party in the UK), and I'd rather see the current US abolished and replaced with a bunch of socialist communes, but your solution isn't really any better.

 

[ShinyUmbreon189]

>Actually Trumps a centralist, can be right and left at the same time. Not to mention he's full of **** 90% of the time.

3. because it's the only way you're going to see a decrease in gun violence. Do you think any of the major parties give a rat's arse about the health and safety of the working class?

How will leftism cause a decrease in gun violence again? Yeah it'll disarm law abiding citizens but it wont do much if anything for actual criminals that actually use their firearms for criminal activities. Australia isn't like America, mate. Here in America we got gang members that traffic guns and drugs to and from Mexico, Central America, Puerto Rico, UK, South America, etc. There's over a million gang members in America (there's 25 million people in Australia). That's a major problem, imho.

I know political parties don't give a rats ass. No politician actually gives a shit and if they do they wont get elected because they most likely wouldn't be Republican nor Democrat.

Cool then. What are the real issues? How are you going to be able to implement any sort of political movement in a capitalist society without a state? How are you going to get influential, wealthy people to worth with each other outside of them ****ing over the proletariat?

Who needs a political movement? It's obvious this left and right wing doesn't work because it's a broken system. I call this bird a dodo. Has wings but can't do anything with them.

So what you're saying is, you have no real solutions, you just want everyone to get along with each other with no solutions of how to do that. Individualism doesn't work, mate. I really don't like any mainstream political parties in any Western country (apart from maybe Corbyn's Labour party in the UK), and I'd rather see the current US abolished and replaced with a bunch of socialist communes, but your solution isn't really any better.

No, you find a way to implement both sides through compromise. There's good things both left and right sides do, but there's also a whole lot of bullshit that comes from both. I'm not interested in going over the details as I feel you're smart enough to figure that out on your own.

Btw, socialism doesn't work.

All in all. Neither political side has proven to work in America.

 

[Gigadweeb]

>Actually Trumps a centralist, can be right and left at the same time. Not to mention he's full of **** 90% of the time.



How will leftism cause a decrease in gun violence again? Yeah it'll disarm law abiding citizens but it wont do much if anything for actual criminals that actually use their firearms for criminal activities. Australia isn't like America, mate. Here in America we got gang members that traffic guns and drugs to and from Mexico, Central America, Puerto Rico, UK, South America, etc. There's over a million gang members in America (there's 25 million people in Australia). That's a major problem, imho.

I know political parties don't give a rats ass. No politician actually gives a shit and if they do they wont get elected because they most likely wouldn't be Republican nor Democrat.



Who needs a political movement? It's obvious this left and right wing doesn't work because it's a broken system. I call this bird a dodo. Has wings but can't do anything with them.



No, you find a way to implement both sides through compromise. There's good things both left and right sides do, but there's also a whole lot of bullshit that comes from both. I'm not interested in going over the details as I feel you're smart enough to figure that out on your own.

Btw, socialism doesn't work.

All in all. Neither political side has proven to work in America.

>How will leftism cause a decrease in gun violence again? Yeah it'll disarm law abiding citizens but it wont do much if anything for actual criminals that actually use their firearms for criminal activities. Australia isn't like America, mate. Here in America we got gang members that traffic guns and drugs to and from Mexico, Central America, Puerto Rico, UK, South America, etc. There's over a million gang members in America (there's 25 million people in Australia). That's a major problem, imho.

1. I've already pointed out that actual leftists like Marx, Lenin, Kropotkin, Mao, literally whoever were all for ownership of guns by the proletariat.

2. The point is by educating people on ableism, sexism, classism, any form of bigotry really, and combating those issues, gun violence will be reduced as a lot of violent crime is out of the material conditions of the perpetrator.

3. Yes, I'm aware of that. As mentioned, I've already said taking away guns is a shite idea that won't work.

>I know political parties don't give a rats ass. No politician actually gives a shit and if they do they wont get elected because they most likely wouldn't be Republican nor Democrat.
>Who needs a political movement? It's obvious this left and right wing doesn't work because it's a broken system. I call this bird a dodo. Has wings but can't do anything with them.

I've already noted that Democrats are ineffective and not leftist. The Overton window is just shifted so far to the right in the US that social democrats look like hard leftists when pretty much everywhere else and in the context of history they're mild centrists.

>No, you find a way to implement both sides through compromise. There's good things both left and right sides do, but there's also a whole lot of bullshit that comes from both. I'm not interested in going over the details as I feel you're smart enough to figure that out on your own.


Sorry, I thought the US's political parties were ineffective, by your own words? How do you expect a good compromise to happen?

>Btw, socialism doesn't work.
>All in all. Neither political side has proven to work in America.

"Ben Shapiro DESTROYS socialism!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Your 'political sides' in the US are literally like a few feet from each other. I get the feeling you think socialists are just Dermocrats. Do you know what socialism actually is? Can name examples of political states and societies who operate under a socialist economical system?

 

[ShinyUmbreon189]

2. The point is by educating people on ableism, sexism, classism, any form of bigotry really, and combating those issues, gun violence will be reduced as a lot of violent crime is out of the material conditions of the perpetrator.

I don't have a problem with anything you mentioned it's that America's so divided as a country this would never happen. Once you become an adult these things generally start to balance themselves out anyways, unless they're immature and so far out they're a lost cause. Also, the media tries to push this politically correct agenda that anyone against their beliefs is racist, sexist, homophobic, etc because they're feelings got hurt. People are sensitive to anything and everything nowadays and will offend someone and now if you offend someone you're what I mentioned above.

I've already noted that Democrats are ineffective and not leftist. The Overton window is just shifted so far to the right in the US that social democrats look like hard leftists when pretty much everywhere else and in the context of history they're mild centrists.

America has not shifted to the right, does this "politically correct agenda" and America turning into fruitcakes that get their panties in a bunch when they don't get their way sound like it's coming from the right to you? People need to realize life's not sunshine and rainbows.

Sorry, I thought the US's political parties were ineffective, by your own words? How do you expect a good compromise to happen?

Lost count to the amount of times I've said I don't follow a particular political party, and for obvious reasons. Lots think they need politics to agree or disagree with someone and make their voice heard. But there are not any two individuals on this planet that has the exact same mindset. Yes many can have very similar viewpoints but there will always be disagreements somewhere with everybody. It adds interest. Would be boring if everyone had the same beliefs and opinions.

Your 'political sides' in the US are literally like a few feet from each other. I get the feeling you think socialists are just Dermocrats. Do you know what socialism actually is? Can name examples of political states and societies who operate under a socialist economical system?

Actually I know Democrat and Socialism are two different things. Socialism is an economy to fit peoples needs like healthcare and schooling and production, trades, etc are owned as well as controlled by the community unlike Capitalism where it's controlled by corporations for profit. Most Democrats and Republicans are for Capitalism as well as America's citizens.

So you're now questioning my knowledge? Canada, Sweden, China, Netherlands, Ireland, Denmark (I believe the Soviet Union is as well but I could be wrong) and there's many more but I just gave a few examples. Also which have insanely high tax rates and some still suffer from problems socialism was supposed to fix. In America, if you go to a clinic or doctors office even ER and have health insurance you'll usually get in immediately rather than an insane waiting list like in these socialist countries. Unless it's critical like a terminal illness or they're dying from a stroke, heart attack, etc they'll get quicker access because they're lives are at risk rather than going in for check ups or to see if somethings wrong. Which they could wait a very long time for. Don't really have that much here in America. But our health system is a fucking disaster and basically nobody can afford hospital bills without devastating them. Unless you're rich for instance.

 

[Vragon2.0]

Can I just point out to everybody a factor I don't think is being addressed that is relevant.
We talk about how the US and why they want to keep their guns while at the same time still having the violent stuff.

Well, something I've noticed in things and that have been talked about is the difference in culture across the states. Yes, you could say that every country has a good amount of cultures, but in all fairness America's is pretty diverse with more cultural influence being in certain areas of the states.

I bring this up, cause it's annoying with the generalist viewpoint that America is this one thing. It's a make up of currently 50 states with their own unique culture, population ratio, laws, ideals, etc.

In sheer honesty, I see the US as what it is. United States. I get the idea that it's still a one acting country, however I think it's a glaring flaw to say that one solution would fit all the states. For example, peeps more south eastern or south center states tend to handle guns better than western, northern or mid-eastern. The reason I could say is many factors; Population, idealism, culture, etc.

So honestly, this entire gun debate is a matter of how many peeps are gonna side with you cause, while I have my own thoughts on the solutions, at the same time my solution wouldn't work for all states.

I get damage control and cutting losses, however I can see where both sides are coming from and honestly I do agree that inactivity in this isn't ideal. I think a fair compromise (at least for a start that everyone can agree on) is making schools safer as a facility. Perhaps, metal detectors, better trained officers, locked classrooms, better escape outlets, hell even better environments.

Overall, there are many factors to this and I'm getting a little annoyed at everyone generalizing the states as they are. Why doesn't the US gov. work like European nations tend to do? Maybe it's cause the US is much more diverse than those nations and isn't even more country oriented. I get this isn't entirely relevant to the discussion on guns, however I think it's a fair thing to say in regards to the seemingly stand off (heh pun) that is this debate thread.

 

[BronzeHeart92]

Now, it's true that guns are somewhat ingrained into American culture already. And yet, do you consider people like me as evil for wanting you to get rid of them once and for all? As a poster earlier noted, they could have valid uses for hunting and sports. And even then, they are valid as long as you're not expected to shoot an another living human being with them. And that's the crux of this issue as it were.

 

[ShinyUmbreon189]

Now, it's true that guns are somewhat ingrained into American culture already. And yet, do you consider people like me as evil for wanting you to get rid of them once and for all? As a poster earlier noted, they could have valid uses for hunting and sports. And even then, they are valid as long as you're not expected to shoot an another living human being with them. And that's the crux of this issue as it were.

You're in Finland, therefore you're vote doesn't count in whether or not guns should be legal or not in America. Just because they're banned doesn't mean it'll get rid of them once and for all, that's a really unrealistic way of looking at it. Only people using guns to shoot another human being(s) is nut cases and criminals. Not law abiding citizens. Our 2nd Amendment will NEVER be stripped in America. The percentage of citizens that wish to keep it intact far outweighs the citizens that don't and it would come down to the people, not the government. Only way the US can wipe the 2nd Amendment is if every state in the US gets a 51% vote against guns. That won't ever happen. We know the consequences and already are slowly losing rights. Tamper with what our Founding Fathers created, things could escalate quickly.

Banning guns won't work because of criminal organizations smuggling them from foreign countries.

Don't agree with giving anyone and everyone a firearm, and it's not the case here now. There's many regulations to follow

A majority of the firearms these liberals talk about in the media, are already illegal. As well are lots of the attachments

Not all assault rifles are fully auto, there's simi automatic assault rifles just like there's fully auto pistols

Want to decrease gun violence in America? You don't do it by banning guns, that's an asinine idea.

Psychological testings, we already do that in lots of states here in America as well as background checks

 

[BronzeHeart92]

True, as non-american myself, there's very little that I can do about the matter. And yet, if repealing the 2nd ever is to happen, local support is important. Therefore I see it as my duty to spread the word around. Does that make an evil person? Scum who doesn't deserve to live? From your perspective, I just might be. And I pity you for that really. Nevertheless, understand that as long as the 2nd Amendment exists, people like me will demand total gun bans. It's like a neverending cycle really, without end. You want guns for hunting and sports? You may keep 'em but don't expect to use them against live human beings.

 

[BronzeHeart92]

Why have you taken it upon yourself to be the most obnoxious person on Earth whenever someone non-American comments on gun control jw like this happens to be a continuing trend with you and I'm genuinely puzzled

That's what I would like to know really. To this guy, everything really seems to revolve around guns so to speak and goes absolutely nuts the moment someone wants to repeal their precious Amendment. There assuredly is no conspiracy, no Clinton-Soros-Rothschild cabal out there to take away everyone's freedoms. I understand that the 2nd Amendment might have made sense back when it was written but I simply can't see any justifications for it in today's world. If I can get by without guns then surely Americans can as well. It's an eternal question for me really at this point...

 

[ShinyUmbreon189]

True, as non-american myself, there's very little that I can do about the matter. And yet, if repealing the 2nd ever is to happen, local support is important. Therefore I see it as my duty to spread the word around. Does that make an evil person? Scum who doesn't deserve to live? From your perspective, I just might be. And I pity you for that really. Nevertheless, understand that as long as the 2nd Amendment exists, people like me will demand total gun bans. It's like a neverending cycle really, without end. You want guns for hunting and sports? You may keep 'em but don't expect to use them against live human beings.

I never said you're an evil person, stop putting words in my mouth dude. I don't agree with your stance, doesn't mean I think you're evil. Just uneducated on American rights and how our gun culture is. To each their own.

And tell that to the criminals here in America who already own them illegally. Tell them not to shoot people or use their firearms for other criminal activities and tell them they can't have a gun. Tell them not to smuggle guns to and from foreign countries. They know they're not allowed to have a gun and know murder and committing crimes are illegal. Guess what? It doesn't stop them!

Btw, I don't own a gun like you'd like to believe.

 

[BronzeHeart92]

I never said you're an evil person, stop putting words in my mouth dude. I don't agree with your stance, doesn't mean I think you're evil. Just uneducated on American rights and how our gun culture is.

And tell that to the criminals here in America who already own them illegally. Tell them not to shoot people or use their firearms for other criminal activities and tell them they can't have a gun. Tell them not to smuggle guns to and from foreign countries. They know they're not allowed to have a gun and know murder and committing crimes are illegal. Guess what? It doesn't stop them!

Btw, I don't own a gun like you'd like to believe.

Well, that's a relief I suppose. Still, it begs to question why you would look down on those who desires to ban guns in first place? Sure, no one likes criminals, especially armed ones. But where do they get the guns in first place? With the 2nd Amendment ensuring easy availabilty of them, it's not unthinkable that several of them will find their way to the hands of criminals. Sure, there would still be smuggling but eventually that route will be closed off as well.

 

[ShinyUmbreon189]

Well, that's a relief I suppose. Still, it begs to question why you would look down on those who desires to ban guns in first place? Sure, no one likes criminals, especially armed ones. But where do they get the guns in first place? With the 2nd Amendment ensuring easy availabilty of them, it's not unthinkable that several of them will find their way to the hands of criminals. Sure, there would still be smuggling but eventually that route will be closed off as well.

I don't look down, to each their own. As I stated, no 2 people have the same exact mind frames there's gonna be agreements as well as disagreements with everyone. If someone disagrees with someone, it's just opinion based. That's like looking down on someone because they smoke weed since you're against it (not you, just using as an example). Doesn't make the drug user a bad person. Just like people that own guns legally or think the 2nd Amendment should be intact aren't bad people. If you're against gun, that's fine as you have the freedom to believe what you wish. But I will disagree with you and have a debate over the topic.

Straw purchases which is a federal crime. Sure you can eliminate legal gun markets like straw purchasing (for the most part), but not underground illegal gun markets or the black market. The illegal gun market has many more guns than you'd think. Also, it's not gonna stop someone from creating a gun with a 3D printer if they acquire the skills to do so. Also, you do realize government ties (military) are involved with black markets right? How else would you expect these criminals to have foreign weaponry like Uzi's and Ak's? Ak 47's are ILLEGAL for ANYONE to own in America. Criminals have military grade weaponry. Foreign weaponry but still military grade and they didn't get them for a legal source.

How would smuggling be closed off? Mexico has underground tunnels and Mexico can transport those to and from the UK, Central America, South America, Latin America, etc as they already do. It's why a wall wouldn't work for illegal immigration. Gotta use common sense here.

 

[Vragon2.0]

Sure, no one likes criminals, especially armed ones. But where do they get the guns in first place?

I'm just going to point out that Umbreon already addressed that earlier from his stance.

Banning guns won't work because of criminal organizations smuggling them from foreign countries.

Here in America we got gang members that traffic guns and drugs to and from Mexico, Central America, Puerto Rico, UK, South America, etc. There's over a million gang members in America (there's 25 million people in Australia). That's a major problem, imho.

These are just two I found. I'm not going to say, "ignorance" or what not, but so far Bronze I've only really seen you repeating the points that "you don't understand why guns are so important here in the US" and how things are better where you are. I'm glad things are better there, but this is something I think you should address.

If you keep on talking how you "don't understand" then perhaps you should look into it or at least talk with peeps on all sides about it. I mean, in this thread there's been a bunch of peeps on both sides with good points in regards to this discussion and well here's something important.

The children being shot a few weeks ago is a tragedy and is a good thing to be used to spur a discussion on the matter. However, I'm firmly against using that as a means to paint your opposition as monsters or uncaring for children. I'm not giving one platform more of a lead way by saying this, I just would like to see a more solution focused discussion on this matter, rather than a push off of this tragedy.
(This doesn't apply to this thread FYI, most peeps have been able to differentiate the discussion from the tragedy at least in justification matters.)

 

[Gigadweeb]

I don't have a problem with anything you mentioned it's that America's so divided as a country this would never happen. Once you become an adult these things generally start to balance themselves out anyways, unless they're immature and so far out they're a lost cause. Also, the media tries to push this politically correct agenda that anyone against their beliefs is racist, sexist, homophobic, etc because they're feelings got hurt. People are sensitive to anything and everything nowadays and will offend someone and now if you offend someone you're what I mentioned above.



America has not shifted to the right, does this "politically correct agenda" and America turning into fruitcakes that get their panties in a bunch when they don't get their way sound like it's coming from the right to you? People need to realize life's not sunshine and rainbows.



Lost count to the amount of times I've said I don't follow a particular political party, and for obvious reasons. Lots think they need politics to agree or disagree with someone and make their voice heard. But there are not any two individuals on this planet that has the exact same mindset. Yes many can have very similar viewpoints but there will always be disagreements somewhere with everybody. It adds interest. Would be boring if everyone had the same beliefs and opinions.



Actually I know Democrat and Socialism are two different things. Socialism is an economy to fit peoples needs like healthcare and schooling and production, trades, etc are owned as well as controlled by the community unlike Capitalism where it's controlled by corporations for profit. Most Democrats and Republicans are for Capitalism as well as America's citizens.

So you're now questioning my knowledge? Canada, Sweden, China, Netherlands, Ireland, Denmark (I believe the Soviet Union is as well but I could be wrong) and there's many more but I just gave a few examples. Also which have insanely high tax rates and some still suffer from problems socialism was supposed to fix. In America, if you go to a clinic or doctors office even ER and have health insurance you'll usually get in immediately rather than an insane waiting list like in these socialist countries. Unless it's critical like a terminal illness or they're dying from a stroke, heart attack, etc they'll get quicker access because they're lives are at risk rather than going in for check ups or to see if somethings wrong. Which they could wait a very long time for. Don't really have that much here in America. But our health system is a fucking disaster and basically nobody can afford hospital bills without devastating them. Unless you're rich for instance.

> I don't have a problem with anything you mentioned it's that America's so divided as a country this would never happen. Once you become an adult these things generally start to balance themselves out anyways, unless they're immature and so far out they're a lost cause. Also, the media tries to push this politically correct agenda that anyone against their beliefs is racist, sexist, homophobic, etc because they're feelings got hurt. People are sensitive to anything and everything nowadays and will offend someone and now if you offend someone you're what I mentioned above.

yeah uhhhh no. generally if you're being called bigoted it's because you said some bigoted shit.

>America has not shifted to the right, does this "politically correct agenda" and America turning into fruitcakes that get their panties in a bunch when they don't get their way sound like it's coming from the right to you? People need to realize life's not sunshine and rainbows.

please explain the fact that all of Reagan's changes to the US have been added upon, not removed.

>Actually I know Democrat and Socialism are two different things. Socialism is an economy to fit peoples needs like healthcare and schooling and production, trades, etc are owned as well as controlled by the community unlike Capitalism where it's controlled by corporations for profit. Most Democrats and Republicans are for Capitalism as well as America's citizens.

>So you're now questioning my knowledge? Canada, Sweden, China, Netherlands, Ireland, Denmark (I believe the Soviet Union is as well but I could be wrong) and there's many more but I just gave a few examples. Also which have insanely high tax rates and some still suffer from problems socialism was supposed to fix. In America, if you go to a clinic or doctors office even ER and have health insurance you'll usually get in immediately rather than an insane waiting list like in these socialist countries. Unless it's critical like a terminal illness or they're dying from a stroke, heart attack, etc they'll get quicker access because they're lives are at risk rather than going in for check ups or to see if somethings wrong. Which they could wait a very long time for. Don't really have that much here in America. But our health system is a fucking disaster and basically nobody can afford hospital bills without devastating them. Unless you're rich for instance.

Yeah, fuckin' thought so, you think socialism is 'the government doing stuff.'

please do some reading.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/

 

[Vragon2.0]

Okay, so pardon my little interjection, I originally wasn't going to join, but I honestly can't let this one slide. I don't mean this to sound condescending, however I don't think your argument here is good at freakin all.

> I don't have a problem with anything you mentioned it's that America's so divided as a country this would never happen. Once you become an adult these things generally start to balance themselves out anyways, unless they're immature and so far out they're a lost cause. Also, the media tries to push this politically correct agenda that anyone against their beliefs is racist, sexist, homophobic, etc because they're feelings got hurt. People are sensitive to anything and everything nowadays and will offend someone and now if you offend someone you're what I mentioned above.

yeah uhhhh no. generally if you're being called bigoted it's because you said some bigoted muk.

Or peeps don't know what Bigot means.

Bigot: (as by merrium Webster dictionary)
a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Also, I call bull on a bunch of peeps calling someone; that as meaning he is saying something bigoted. This entire thread is about discussing the matter and he's bolstering his claims. So far he's been able to hold out fine. That's not bigotry, that's supporting an argument.
Plus, he said that he didn't have a problem with what he said, just that America is too divided for it so it isn't ideal. It's his perception that this is a big issue in regards to that solution presented. He even backs up why he came to such reasoning, something you haven't done in regards to why it would work.

>America has not shifted to the right, does this "politically correct agenda" and America turning into fruitcakes that get their panties in a bunch when they don't get their way sound like it's coming from the right to you? People need to realize life's not sunshine and rainbows.

please explain the fact that all of Reagan's changes to the US have been added upon, not removed.

I'd like to ask how is this relevant to his comment?. Like, I honestly don't see where you get this notion from his comment, unless your using Reagan as an example for someone in the right's policies being bolstered nowadays. If that is the case then I can easily say that is a reflection of Reagan's policies, not a right wing viewpoint in general.

Also, don't ask him to explain this "fact". That's your job as someone talking to him in this discussion. A better point would be about how right wings have been triggered by things, but for different things. More progressive changes such as Obama's presidency which lead to similar stuff happening then as it is now. Also, let's face it most of the media is left leaning, anybody can tell that.

>Actually I know Democrat and Socialism are two different things. Socialism is an economy to fit peoples needs like healthcare and schooling and production, trades, etc are owned as well as controlled by the community unlike Capitalism where it's controlled by corporations for profit. Most Democrats and Republicans are for Capitalism as well as America's citizens.

>So you're now questioning my knowledge? Canada, Sweden, China, Netherlands, Ireland, Denmark (I believe the Soviet Union is as well but I could be wrong) and there's many more but I just gave a few examples. Also which have insanely high tax rates and some still suffer from problems socialism was supposed to fix. In America, if you go to a clinic or doctors office even ER and have health insurance you'll usually get in immediately rather than an insane waiting list like in these socialist countries. Unless it's critical like a terminal illness or they're dying from a stroke, heart attack, etc they'll get quicker access because they're lives are at risk rather than going in for check ups or to see if somethings wrong. Which they could wait a very long time for. Don't really have that much here in America. But our health system is a psyducking disaster and basically nobody can afford hospital bills without devastating them. Unless you're rich for instance.

Yeah, psyduckin' thought so, you think socialism is 'the government doing stuff.'

please do some reading.

[Your link here cause apparently I can't put it here due to some stupidity with posts]

How...how does he think this? I read your article on Lenin's "Class Society and the State"
Also, he said, "Socialism is an economy to fit peoples needs like healthcare and schooling and production, trades, etc are owned as well as controlled by the community." Not the government. I can also confirm this statement is correct, by merely looking up the definition.

Socialism (as by Encyclopedia Britannica.com)
social and economic doctrine that calls for public rather than private ownership or control of property and natural resources. According to the socialist view, individuals do not live or work in isolation but live in cooperation with one another. Furthermore, everything that people produce is in some sense a social product, and everyone who contributes to the production of a good is entitled to a share in it. Society as a whole, therefore, should own or at least control property for the benefit of all its members.


Hence the "social" aspect, hence what he said by "community". I'm not going to call blatant ignorance, but it is honestly hard not to considering how you mistook what he said and any points you brought up weren't backed by anything you brought and the one thing you did bring you said for the readers to google it. Your document doesn't even give a proper definition of "Socialism" and while was a fine read, wasn't relevant.

 

[BronzeHeart92]

#neveragain shall the children of America know fear. To those who still cling to their guns, rest easy since all of your enemies only exists in your head.

 

[ShinyUmbreon189]

#neveragain shall the children of America know fear. To those who still cling to their guns, rest easy since all of your enemies only exists in your head.

What the hell is this? You are hell bent on gun control. I'm for restrictions as well, but there's not much America can do about the matter and you think that just cause some "gun ban" works where you live it'll work everywhere else and since you can't have a gun nobody can have a gun? Sound accurate? I'm also for "it's our right" to own a firearm until those rights are stripped (felony, sickness). I'm for making it more difficult to get a gun for those that shouldn't have them but banning guns in America, you gotta be out your mind. You will never understand America's culture. Guns aren't for killing people, it's not why we have guns. I think guns are your worst enemy and there's no reason for it. America's a LOT safer than you make it out to be. Just stay away from inner city neighborhoods and in some states, don't trespass and don't break into their homes! Besides, drunk driving kills just as many people as firearms. Think about that one for a minute.