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Here's your daily reminder to keep this debate civil. It's a heated topic but be careful not to go too far.
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We've done this too many times now
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S-MAN
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0S7L6sumy8
Very good point made here on gun debate...
Very good point made here on gun debate...
Alexander Nicholi
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American culture has a serious problem that has nothing to do with guns, and everything to do with personal responsibility and accountability for one's actions. That the circus peddled by some is completely oblivious, ipso facto, or outright dismissive of the human factor in these shootings is quite telling.
Regardless of what you might want to do with weapons regulations, you will not get a safer country until people start being accountable for themselves. Not accountable for the world, not even accountable for other people most of the time. Just them and their actions. It's a classic partisan folley for both sides to point fingers at each other in the regulation stalemate, and as a result absolutely nothing changes. The public is similarly embittered, and nobody wants to take charge of themselves and acknowledge what they absolutely can do to help society overcome things, in spite of the fact that they have more power than anybody because they're the best connections into our country's youth, who are still impressionable and are growing up in a dystopian nightmare at this point.
Adults in the establishment have become so overwhelmingly unaccountable that students in secondary schools are walking out in nationwide protest, with slogans like #MeNext mocking the very movements established people are fawning over. It's an embarrassment, and it is a tragedy when you realise that parents are part of that same establishment of do-no-wrong-me / see-everyone-else-but-me-for-problems folks.
The reasons for why someone would go to the extreme of shooting other people are innumerable, and unknown until we interrogate the shooter and find out for ourselves. The people in charge are so clueless that they can't stop themselves from shooting him dead so they can score some partisan PR brownie-points, and it's making it damn near impossible to solve anything because they're so self-absorbed in their own garbage like that. And as we can see, no amount of shootings continuing is going to snap the clowns back into reality to solve the problem, or they would have done so by now.
Regardless of what you might want to do with weapons regulations, you will not get a safer country until people start being accountable for themselves. Not accountable for the world, not even accountable for other people most of the time. Just them and their actions. It's a classic partisan folley for both sides to point fingers at each other in the regulation stalemate, and as a result absolutely nothing changes. The public is similarly embittered, and nobody wants to take charge of themselves and acknowledge what they absolutely can do to help society overcome things, in spite of the fact that they have more power than anybody because they're the best connections into our country's youth, who are still impressionable and are growing up in a dystopian nightmare at this point.
Adults in the establishment have become so overwhelmingly unaccountable that students in secondary schools are walking out in nationwide protest, with slogans like #MeNext mocking the very movements established people are fawning over. It's an embarrassment, and it is a tragedy when you realise that parents are part of that same establishment of do-no-wrong-me / see-everyone-else-but-me-for-problems folks.
The reasons for why someone would go to the extreme of shooting other people are innumerable, and unknown until we interrogate the shooter and find out for ourselves. The people in charge are so clueless that they can't stop themselves from shooting him dead so they can score some partisan PR brownie-points, and it's making it damn near impossible to solve anything because they're so self-absorbed in their own garbage like that. And as we can see, no amount of shootings continuing is going to snap the clowns back into reality to solve the problem, or they would have done so by now.
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So, what's your opinion on these March for our Lives events this weekend? At least it's clear people have had enough of the gun violence and needs something to be done about it, NRA be damned.
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iirc this is the first time in years that there's been a march/protest where the majority of the people involved are minors
But I don't expect anything to come of it. Marches and rallies and speeches and all that? It's just noise to Congress. These sorts of things, at least in recent years, merely just notifies them of whatever it is you have a problem with. But obviously they aren't unaware of the issue, but this provides no incentive for them (the politicians) to do anything. And if it provides no incentive, don't expect them to do anything.
Because really, if children being murdered more than once in the past several years, and one of their own getting nearly killed not once, but twice (and this is on top of all the other people who are killed in the US every year, both the televised ones and the ones that don't get televised), didn't get them to try something and end the stalemate one way or another, why would this?
But I don't expect anything to come of it. Marches and rallies and speeches and all that? It's just noise to Congress. These sorts of things, at least in recent years, merely just notifies them of whatever it is you have a problem with. But obviously they aren't unaware of the issue, but this provides no incentive for them (the politicians) to do anything. And if it provides no incentive, don't expect them to do anything.
Because really, if children being murdered more than once in the past several years, and one of their own getting nearly killed not once, but twice (and this is on top of all the other people who are killed in the US every year, both the televised ones and the ones that don't get televised), didn't get them to try something and end the stalemate one way or another, why would this?
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I disagree that it's "American Culture" that is the problem. Looking at the overall homicide rate puts the US pretty far down the list.
. I don't agree that teens are living in dystopian nightmare either. I do agree that some people should make better personal choices.
. In a lot of the schools, most I think, the adults were setting up the walkouts. "Go across the street, protest for 17 minutes, walk back in. Or get on the bus and ride downtown with the other school kids to the central protest area for photos in front of the White House.
Stopping an active shooter quickly is partisan PR points? First, most mass shooters self terminate. Not all, but most. So you can either shoot them before they run out of targets and suicide or you stand back and let them kill. Obviously each situation is different.
. Useful idiots funded by the antigun group. Not even a large portion of the school kids. Standard protests by people who know next to nothing about gun laws or guns.
looks good for the media.
thats because the thousands of teens are still outnumbers by the tens of millions of gun owners who actually know the laws and know what they are talking about.
If you aren't in a gang and engaged in illegal activity, the odds of being killed by a person with a gun in a mass shooting are extremely low. Like getting hit by lightning low.
More kids die from child abuse/neglect than gun violence every year.
Edit: I am amused by the fact that a week prior, Congress was considering mandating a change in how laundry detergent pods looked or smelled because teens were putting them in their mouths and now people want Congress to listen to teens on gun control.
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ShinyUmbreon189
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As Nah said, lots were minors, and this is a problem.
They don't actually understand what they are protesting, they're only doing it because others are doing it.
They don't know what or who they're protesting against and why they're protesting. They got some growth and experience to learn before they protest something they don't understand.
Besides, you can't just protest against violence and it actually make an impact, which usually ends up in violence as well. In the end, it's a double edged sword.
Let's protest against heroin dealers and heroin addiction too maybe we can stop the rise of overdoses on heroin. See my point?
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True, but at least they are trying. People in USA are waking up to the hard fact that school shootings can happen to anyone anywhere.
Vragon2.0
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Dude, trying doesn't equate benefit; it just means you're pushing for something. I find the walking out a using of students who don't know what their doing nor the actual debate (and the ones that do need to discuss rather than be the anti-gun peep's tools). People want change yeah, but not everyone gets how it should go and thus discussion is needed.
It's basically using a movement like this to say "we want this and despite what you think you need to do this cause these peeps have suffered" and whatnot. Look I'm not one that enjoys gun shootings, but I think Nick has a lot of points in what he's saying as well as marching not going to do much if you can't influence more than half of the populace (it especially won't matter if congress is the one in control).
Overall, I think this is going to be a waste of time as peeps blow off steam that while is understandable, doesn't make them experts in this discussion. Teenagers and the peeps organizing this need to talk about this debate and stop being tools rather than the actual thinkers.
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I'm aware of the statistics, all I was really trying to say is that these kids and the supporters of the march think that their march will cause change to happen, but I think that people overestimate the power these sorts of things have. It never seemed to me that protests and speeches really do anything/give any incentive for the government give a shit about anything. My post was not a statement on whether or not they should give a shit about and enact gun control; like I said before, I'm not really on either side here atm.
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"I'm trying to improve society!" Wonder how many despots initially justify their actions with that claim.
If a lynch mob agrees that someone should hang, is that correct? We have laws for a reason. These kids are wasting their time massively.
Speeches and marches work great when you can show actual illegal discrimination or what not. Gun violence is already illegal.
Civil Rights movement is the go to example for marches that work.. Would they have gotten what they wanted if people didn't get to see the violence against the marchers for themselves?
Protesting against whatever violence is just pointless. Most people don't support the violence.
Personally I think that people should automatically support gun ownership rights. It's rather difficult to regain a right once it's gone.
ShinyUmbreon189
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It doesn't matter who's protesting, what they're protesting against, and why they're protesting. Unless a majority of the population gets involved it will do nothing and if it's pushing a gun ban agenda this will never happen. You're right, school shootings can happen anywhere but so can a lot of things. They shouldn't be protesting gun violence because guns themselves are not the issue.
Hear about the numerous bombs incident in Texas that was really recent actually?
It's evil, plain and simple and you can't erase evil.t
If you could erase evil extremist groups wouldn't exist, mass murderers wouldn't exist, etc. You can't just have a bunch of people roam the streets protesting violence, it doesn't work that way. Sorry, just being realistic here. Get that delusion out of your head.
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Firstly, you drastically underestimate the understanding a great many young people have of the world - a lot of people do. Youth does not equal unintelligence, misinformation of even naivety. They understand perfectly well what they're protesting - they want stricter gun control so people stop shooting up schools with legal assault weaponry.
secondly, they're not protesting violence, they're protesting the enabling of violence through bad gun laws and republican pandering to the NRA. Your point is way off the mark. If heroin was unregulated and sold in bulk at Walmart and that was contributing to large masses of young people overdosing and they protested the lack of heroin regulation, then it would be a workable comparison. Although the key difference is, if you take too much heroin and die, it's your own fault. You don't really have say in a lunatic with a machine gun coming through your school and taking your life outside of telling the government to stop making it so damn easy for that to happen.
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Except in this case they are operating off of misinformation and naivety.
Full stop. Which of the tens of thousands of gun laws are bad? The Parkland school shooting was the direct result of the police and FBI ignoring complaints and not arresting the shooter at any of the many opportunities they had.
the members of the NRA are voters. It is part of the job if the politicians to listen to their constituents.
guns aren't unregulated though. Lots of regulations apply to gun purchases already.
I agree! Let's get rid of gun free zones first off! Then we can let teachers who choose to conceal carry. 18 states have some variation of program that allows armed teachers and they haven't had any issues.
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Alexander Nicholi
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Instead of shooting you down, I'm gonna try to address what you're saying here and see what I can make of it.
Firstly, there is the question of what youth are protesting here, and as we can see there are a lot of wildly varying answers to that. It's not really feasible to say why they're doing this without polling them, and even then that is iffy because the people polling them would probably be the schools who have a major authoritarian bias and conflict of interest because they're in charge of the kids a lot of the time. In my opinion though, saying they want gun control is only half of their message. They want people to regain control and start taking responsibility for things, because they're helpless every time there's a shooting. It's a pretty crucial part that it seems a lot of people entrenched in partisan politics gloss over so they can say 'the kids are on our side', which is a terrible way to approach it, solving nothing and actually furthering the very things the kids are protesting against.
As for your second point, I really cannot disagree with the idea more. Students don't want to get shot, and that notion is embodied in chants of theirs like 'Am I next?', 'Our Blood/Your Hands', if it wasn't obvious from the start that this has everything to do with what's actually happening in these schools. If you think Congressional regulations are going to have an effect, let me say there are a lot of laws on the books that have never been enforced by anyone, whether it was politically unwise, logistically infeasible, or served no purpose on its own to begin with. In the end it's a piece of paper signed by some elected people, and that paper is merely a declaration of how the government ought to act. How they actually act hasn't exactly been similar to the ideals they codify into law.
Instead of politicising the problem of schoolhouse violence, it would be more productive to address how people in charge are acting with things. What do they actually do? How does that line up with what should work well to protect children? If they do things that don't make any sense, are there ulterior motives behind why they would obstruct procedures that stop senseless bloodshed, like their political reputation, or favour amongst other people in power? We need to evaluate what's happening step-by-step here to pinpoint what is going wrong and where, and then we can answer the question of why that's happening. The partisan politics conclusion, either way, is skipping all of the questioning for what and where and jumping directly to an ill-borne conclusion for why.
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Well, looks like there's been a new development on the issue. The town of Deersfield in Illinois has risen up to the challenge and have actually done something about the gun epidemic. With the passage of the bill, anyone still possessing assault weapon at their home will have a daily fine imposed upon them.
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They've done nothing. It's an outrage that this group thinks they can bypass state law by amending an ordinance referring to safe storage and transportation of assault weapons. This completely changes the ordinance.
They even admit that it's about a "sense of safety".
How do they plan to find and fine gun owners anyway?
Here's the bill.
https://www.deerfield.il.us/DocumentCenter/View/1506
And they are already being sued.
https://www.google.com/amp/www.chic...ult-weapon-ban-lawsuit-tl-0412-story,amp.html
Edit: crime stats for Deerfield are extremely low.
https://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Deerfield-Illinois.html
This ban does nothing to protect their residents as the crime is almost nonexistent there.
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ooh, this looks cool, I'ma hold onto this
Vragon2.0
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More power to them. Banning assault weapons over a non-existent problem there (violent crime) might seem a little paranoid, but then again, so is stock piling weapons against an existential boogieman in a tyrannical federal government that will somehow manage to disarm 300 million people when it takes over and that there's precedent for that in a 300 year old "dead" document" written by long-dead extremists.¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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