What constitutes an "unhealthy" Pokemon?

[Zeffy]

There's been plenty of debate about what makes a Pokemon broken somewhere out there suspect test threads, but does being broken make a Pokemon unhealthy to the metagame? Take Mega Metagross and Shadow Tag Gothitelle for example. Both are objectively broken, but one is considered an asset because it checks fairies (among other things) whilst the other one is completely detested by most because trapping is an essentially broken mechanic.

So, what factors do you think contribute to a Pokemon being unhealthy to the metagame?

Edit: Note that the example I used was for OU, but this discussion is intended to encompass both simulator and cartridge PvP battling.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

Basically a Pokemon or strategy you can just throw on your team and grab wins with little or no skill involved. I think GeoPass takes less skill than Shadow Tag Gothi tbh

 

[Anti]

unhealthy elements remove skill from the game or break the balance of the game. of course, actually proving that something is unhealthy or uncompetitive is difficult because it is an inherently subjective category that relies a great deal on intuition and experience. i think there are plenty of unhealthy things that we (rightly) don't ban (like paralysis), and even a few broken things that remain because they are perceived to be healthy (stealth rock being the easiest example). i think it's a category that arises from the fact that pokemon in its "pure" state is a very poor competitive game, so tiering and making rulesets for it are always going to carry human biases and draw arbitrary lines.

edit: also a nitpick but i think metagross-mega is more subjectively broken than objectively. i think some good players would dispute that characterization.

 

[Khaotic Kebab]

There's been plenty of debate about what makes a Pokemon broken somewhere out there suspect test threads, but does being broken make a Pokemon unhealthy to the metagame? Take Mega Metagross and Shadow Tag Gothitelle for example. Both are objectively broken, but one is considered an asset because it checks fairies (among other things) whilst the other one is completely detested by most because trapping is an essentially broken mechanic.

So, what factors do you think contribute to a Pokemon being unhealthy to the metagame?

Edit: Note that the example I used was for OU, but this discussion is intended to encompass both simulator and cartridge PvP battling.

Flagging Pokemon or certain sets as "broken" is childish in my eyes. I honestly don't see why Smogon players moan and complain that some Pokemon are unfair to use and "solve the problem" by banning them. I've been playing Pokemon for 8 years now, and I've found that there's always at least one way to take down any given opponent, no matter how cheap they are. So really, all Smogon and its players are doing by banning stuff is making the game needlessly vague. Smogon argues that tiers and stuff like that "balances out an unbalanced game". Well, unless I've been living under a rock for the past 8 years, I honestly can't understand their reasoning. I play on the PSS in XY and ORAS at the minute, and I can say firsthand that there's nothing wrong with the current Meta. I've never been dominated by anyone with an "unfair" team, and I've never completely thrashed anyone myself. Also, Smogon bans Pokemon through suspect tests, which is bullshit basically as it's based completely on anecdotal evidence, rather than first-hand experience. In my opinion, that'd break the game more than tierless battles ever could.

I'm just gonna leave you with this quote, which pretty much sums up everything wrong with Smogon:
"No plan survives first contact with the enemy."
- Helmuth von Moltke the Elder.

 

[Howlcall]

Flagging Pokemon or certain sets as "broken" is childish in my eyes. I honestly don't see why Smogon players moan and complain that some Pokemon are unfair to use and "solve the problem" by banning them. I've been playing Pokemon for 8 years now, and I've found that there's always at least one way to take down any given opponent, no matter how cheap they are. So really, all Smogon and its players are doing by banning stuff is making the game needlessly vague. Smogon argues that tiers and stuff like that "balances out an unbalanced game". Well, unless I've been living under a rock for the past 8 years, I honestly can't understand their reasoning. I play on the PSS in XY and ORAS at the minute, and I can say firsthand that there's nothing wrong with the current Meta. I've never been dominated by anyone with an "unfair" team, and I've never completely thrashed anyone myself. Also, Smogon bans Pokemon through suspect tests, which is bullsh*t basically as it's based completely on anecdotal evidence, rather than first-hand experience. In my opinion, that'd break the game more than tierless battles ever could.

I'm just gonna leave you with this quote, which pretty much sums up everything wrong with Smogon:
"No plan survives first contact with the enemy."
- Helmuth von Moltke the Elder.

You summed up all of my thoughts.
To add in, I like to play battle spot, so tierless. I've never wrecked a team and never been completely wrecked by another due to some specific pokemon. be it against legends or gimmicky sets. You win some you lose some.

The only thing I dislike is FEAR strategies. they're not unbeatable but they feel extremely cheap to me. I once faced a full team of FEAR aron.... it was horrifying. I was lucky I had will-o-wisp arcanine.

 

[Professor_Jared]

You summed up all of my thoughts.
To add in, I like to play battle spot, so tierless. I've never wrecked a team and never been completely wrecked by another due to some specific pokemon. be it against legends or gimmicky sets. You win some you lose some.

The only thing I dislike is FEAR strategies. they're not unbeatable but they feel extremely cheap to me. I once faced a full team of FEAR aron.... it was horrifying. I was lucky I had will-o-wisp arcanine.

....*facepalm* No one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to play by Smogon rules (Which are optional btw). Anyways back on topic, I think of an "unhealthy" pokemon as being a pokemon with a lack of reliable counters and/or checks like Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Salamence, and Landorus-I, or a pokemon with the ability to trap another pokemon and 1 or 2 shot it to death afterwards (I'm looking at you Mega Gengar you annoying POS).

Additionally, I also consider an unhealthy pokemon to be unpredictable and very speedy in nature, like Protean Greninja who can change into any type it wants to, and has a very unpredictable move set as well.

 

[Zeffy]

Flagging Pokemon or certain sets as "broken" is childish in my eyes. I honestly don't see why Smogon players moan and complain that some Pokemon are unfair to use and "solve the problem" by banning them. I've been playing Pokemon for 8 years now, and I've found that there's always at least one way to take down any given opponent, no matter how cheap they are. So really, all Smogon and its players are doing by banning stuff is making the game needlessly vague. Smogon argues that tiers and stuff like that "balances out an unbalanced game". Well, unless I've been living under a rock for the past 8 years, I honestly can't understand their reasoning. I play on the PSS in XY and ORAS at the minute, and I can say firsthand that there's nothing wrong with the current Meta. I've never been dominated by anyone with an "unfair" team, and I've never completely thrashed anyone myself. Also, Smogon bans Pokemon through suspect tests, which is bullsh*t basically as it's based completely on anecdotal evidence, rather than first-hand experience. In my opinion, that'd break the game more than tierless battles ever could.

I'm just gonna leave you with this quote, which pretty much sums up everything wrong with Smogon:
"No plan survives first contact with the enemy."
- Helmuth von Moltke the Elder.

You're completely missing the point of the thread. I don't care if no one has trashed you in online cartridge play (have you disregarded the possibility that you might have been playing with people who are far less familiar with competitive play?), I was asking for factors that contributes to making a Pokemon an "unhealthy" influence in any metagame. Take Mega Rayquaza for example, a Pokemon completely capable of 6-0'ing a team is both broken and unhealthy for plenty of reasons.

Keep in mind that this is a thread for civil discussion, not a thread for thrashing on Smogon. Please do that somewhere else.

 

[Khaotic Kebab]

You're completely missing the point of the thread. I don't care if no one has trashed you in online cartridge play (have you disregarded the possibility that you might have been playing with people who are far less familiar with competitive play?), I was asking for factors that contributes to making a Pokemon an "unhealthy" influence in any metagame. Take Mega Rayquaza for example, a Pokemon completely capable of 6-0'ing a team is both broken and unhealthy for plenty of reasons.

Keep in mind that this is a thread for civil discussion, not a thread for thrashing on Smogon. Please do that somewhere else.

And I gave my opinion - there is no such thing as a broken or unhealthy Pokemon.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

And I gave my opinion - there is no such thing as a broken or unhealthy Pokemon.

Yo Kebab, if that's what you think, come join me and play AG. Be a real man.

 

[punkysaur]

Why is shadow tag broken and magnet pull or arena trap or other trapping abilitiesnot broken?

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

Why is shadow tag broken and magnet pull or arena trap or other trapping moves not broken?

Shadow Tag and Arena Trap are both broken, but the latter isn't commonly seen since Dugtrio is the only real user of it in OU (and is not very good).

 

[Mercurybro]

An unhealthy pokemon is one that dominates the mindset of a large percentage of players in a certain tier, group, or set of rules that defines how each battle goes.

The greatest example for this is Mewtwo in Gen I.

Every serious team battle (that didn't ban Mewtwo from being used) focused on how you should deal with the opposing Mewtwo and also set your Mewtwo up to sweep the other team by boosting Special with Amnesia. The rest was trivial and you might as well have called it the Mewtwo metagame.

However Mewtwo's domination (and that of psychic types in general) lessened in Gen II thanks to the Special stat being split into two different stats, Lugia, and the introduction of the Dark type. I think this was intended by Game Freak because they realized what an influence Mewtwo had on everyone that played the game competitively with their snazzy link cables.


It's really interesting to look at what pokemon Smogon has defined as "broken" because Smogon is a very popular hub for off-game competitive battling with Pokemon Showdown. Game Freak and Nintendo do look out at the general consensus of over-used and broken things and figure out ways to balance out the game by making changes to the game mechanics in new generations. You can even make a little research project out of how each released generation has affected competitive play.

 

[Dark Azelf]

mfw people dont know what anecdotal fallacies are but still use them in an argument. :|

Suspect tests are exactly the opposite of it. They dont just sit around in a circle fingering their buttholes and go "well gee charizard-x hits kinda hard lets ban it it beat my water type this one time." If the name isnt obvious its a test because its a practical thing and only if you get a very good ranking (read not shit players who have no idea what they are talking about COUGH :/) can vote. Its a very reliable way to gage if something is indeed bullshit. Whilst it does have its flaws (bandwagoning etc) its more reliable than anything else we have system wise. Plus we have damage calcs, usage statistics etc so i mean if you want to argue with those then you yourself will be making an anecdotal fallacy argument js.

Anyway unhealthy stuff in my eyes is something that constricts teambuilding and your options so you have to dedicate multiple slots just to beat it or when something has a single or only a select few counters so niche its not useful at all outside of that role.

See this example: Shedinja is a near 100% counter to Kyogre. Doesnt make Shedinja viable or Kyogre less broken. This is also why "i can think of counters to all the uber pokemon" arguments simply do not hold any water.

Another good example is Gothitelle. It can come in on basically every wall in the game and Trick it a Scarf (or specs) and/or take it out due to Shadow Tag. This limits team building because it forces you to run non Goth trap bait stuff or run everything with Shed Shell thus limiting the pokemon in question. Shed Shell Amoongus would serve no other purpose other than to not be Goth trap bait where as otherwise Black Sludge is a great item on it. You could use Pursuit to try and win the double switch but that makes the game a coin flip and if you pursuit it after its removed a wall, its already done its job. This why i feel goth is unhealthy. Shed Shell Skarmory to escape Magnet Pull is different and ill expand on that in a second.


@the guy asking why is shadow tag is broken and not magnet pull/Arena Trap. Firstly magnet pull/Arena only traps steels/grounded pokemon (respectively) which is the first obvious factor and Shadow Tag traps every non ghost pokemon in the game. Secondly, I wouldnt say Shadow Tag on its own is broken, Wobbuffet needs team support to work meaning that its pretty much not broken if it needs other pokemon to even do its job because it has NO offensive presence. Gothitelle is broken however because of Trick (Encore isnt permanent on Wobb, Trick is) + offensive presence which allows it to take out any cripple any slow pokemon in the game which means walls that are hit by super effective damage by it. It also takes out components of bulkier offense such as Manaphy, Suicune, Clefable etc. Hell even tricking a scarf onto something like Bisharp makes it less effective which is why imo "oh goth is shit vs offense" is a bad argument. No more sucker punch 50/50's anyone? Goth can also struggle stall things with Rest + Trick. Wobb cannot. Basically goth takes no skill to use, no team support to do its job and the risk/reward of using is is ridiculous because literally just pair it with a sweeper/sweepers that benefit from it removing walls and you win.

 

[Detox]

To put it simply, I think that something is unhealthy when it contributes nothing positive to the game and its removal would not have a very big impact on things that were fine otherwise. Mega Metagross was a nice example of how I feel. A lot players felt that it was broken (and it still might be, but that's another thread), but another large portion of players also felt that it was healthy due to its ability to keep fairy types in check. While on the other hand, nearly everyone hated Landorus-I because it was just another expendable offensive powerhouse in a metagame filled with them. Its removal probably won't change much, other than giving another Pokémon the spotlight which will lead to its eventual suspect test.

 

[Anti]

To put it simply, I think that something is unhealthy when it contributes nothing positive to the game and its removal would not have a very big impact on things that were fine otherwise. Mega Metagross was a nice example of how I feel. A lot players felt that it was broken (and it still might be, but that's another thread), but another large portion of players also felt that it was healthy due to its ability to keep fairy types in check. While on the other hand, nearly everyone hated Landorus-I because it was just another expendable offensive powerhouse in a metagame filled with them. Its removal probably won't change much, other than giving another Pokémon the spotlight which will lead to its eventual suspect test.

i think this is a key point because every suspect thread seems to have "this poke is borked af" and then the counter "but if this poke gets banned pokes x y and z will run rampant!" i dislike that we keep broken pokemon in the metagame for the sake of healthiness, and i feel that the commonly cited exceptions to this like gsc snorlax and stealth rock are quite exceptional indeed and do not translate to a more generalized tiering policy.

you described the trend well. what are your thoughts on it personally? what is your tiering philosophy, my young apprentice?

 

[Dark Azelf]

I think Syn makes a good point.

Landorus-I didnt contribute anything to the metagame apart from being a nightmare to prepare for. This goes for RBY Mewtwo etc too.

GSC Snorlax, Stealth Rock and MMeta (#FuckMegasTho) do contribute something to the metagame. GSC Snorlax kept special attackers in check whilst being able to be on any team archetype and do any role well (notable examples are immediately threatening Zapdos and Raikou [unlike Blissey] without having to use grounds on every team) and you could prepare for it although it was sometimes very hard to do so due to its versatility, but it was very possible. Stealth Rock keeps things like Gyarados, Zards, Volc in check and has ways to be prevented and removed, even more so this gen and it can be used on any team style. MMeta provides a way to be able to switch into bs fairy types such as MGardy etc for offense which really cannot switch into it otherwise. In the end it comes down to "the metagame without these pokemon is alot more SHIT than with them".

This is why i liked the Aegislash test. Aegi contributed something to the metgame, checked and countered alot of the bs mons this gen whilst fitting on any style so i think the premise for this test was positive. However, Aegi was also an absolute pain to prep for and required very niche counters and checks too, this and my next point, alluding to my aforementioned post/points: massively restricting team building often needing more than 1 check/counter because they were very easy to wear down because of ghosts asinine neutral coverage and power . Which in the end as we all know, outweighed its positive influences on the meta.

 

[Detox]

i think this is a key point because every suspect thread seems to have "this poke is borked af" and then the counter "but if this poke gets banned pokes x y and z will run rampant!" i dislike that we keep broken pokemon in the metagame for the sake of healthiness, and i feel that the commonly cited exceptions to this like gsc snorlax and stealth rock are quite exceptional indeed and do not translate to a more generalized tiering policy.

you described the trend well. what are your thoughts on it personally? what is your tiering philosophy, my young apprentice?

I think a big reason that broken checks broken so much in OU is simply due to how Smogon has carried out some of the more recent suspect tests. In the past, Smogon has suspected up to three Pokémon at once, and players that got reqs were able to vote on all three at once. Recently, however, we've only seen single Pokémon be tested at a time. I think that this alone gives the "but if X is banned then Y and Z run rampant" argument the materials it needs to survive, even if this was not the exact relation between the three Pokémon that were on trial at that time.

Let's look at the Mega Metagross suspect test as an example (lol I use this Pokémon a lot in examples but what can you do). We all know how Mega Metagross was basically portrayed as the most broken Pokémon to ever walk the face of the earth up until its suspect test. Then we started getting the "but if its broken then fairy types will run OU" arguments. While I don't necessarily agree with that, let's look at it another way. Say that Smogon also suspect tested Gardevoirite and Diancite beside it. I'm more than certain that all three of them would have been shipped to Ubers (maybe not Diancite, I can't recall if it was as popular back then as it is now).

Anyway, I think that Smogon has a very good way of setting the tiers up: By usage. I don't have any major concerns with it, and there isn't really a better way to group Pokémon that comes to mind right now. Usage does give you a great estimation on how well any Pokémon will perform when facing others that we find to be equal in power or effectiveness when performing a certain role. The suspect tests could probably use an overhaul, but I really couldn't think of how to approach that problem right now. Maybe change the way reqs are required so that more experienced players get reqs and not someone who did 741 battles just to meet the requirements lol.

 

[Anti]

I think Syn makes a good point.

Landorus-I didnt contribute anything to the metagame apart from being a nightmare to prepare for. This goes for RBY Mewtwo etc too.

GSC Snorlax, Stealth Rock and MMeta (#PsyduckMegasTho) do contribute something to the metagame. GSC Snorlax kept special attackers in check whilst being able to be on any team archetype and do any role well (notable examples are immediately threatening Zapdos and Raikou [unlike Blissey] without having to use grounds on every team) and you could prepare for it although it was sometimes very hard to do so due to its versatility, but it was very possible. Stealth Rock keeps things like Gyarados, Zards, Volc in check and has ways to be prevented and removed, even more so this gen and it can be used on any team style. MMeta provides a way to be able to switch into bs fairy types such as MGardy etc for offense which really cannot switch into it otherwise. In the end it comes down to "the metagame without these pokemon is alot more MUK than with them".

This is why i liked the Aegislash test. Aegi contributed something to the metgame, checked and countered alot of the bs mons this gen whilst fitting on any style so i think the premise for this test was positive. However, Aegi was also an absolute pain to prep for and required very niche counters and checks too, this and my next point, alluding to my aforementioned post/points: massively restricting team building often needing more than 1 check/counter because they were very easy to wear down because of ghosts asinine neutral coverage and power . Which in the end as we all know, outweighed its positive influences on the meta.

I can agree with this as long as there is very explicit recognition that "healthiness" is very subjective.

Just to use the easiest example, I don't see what Mega Metagross "adds" to the metagame except another threat that requires fairly unique checks to deal with. It does a poor job checking the new ORAS Fairies when DD Altaria Earthquake does a lot of damage and it can't switch into Diancie at all (and Speed ties even if it's mega evolved). I think it falls more under Aegislash's umbrella than GSC Snorlax's, and I don't think it's close.

I think a big reason that broken checks broken so much in OU is simply due to how Smogon has carried out some of the more recent suspect tests. In the past, Smogon has suspected up to three Pokémon at once, and players that got reqs were able to vote on all three at once. Recently, however, we've only seen single Pokémon be tested at a time. I think that this alone gives the "but if X is banned then Y and Z run rampant" argument the materials it needs to survive, even if this was not the exact relation between the three Pokémon that were on trial at that time.

Let's look at the Mega Metagross suspect test as an example (lol I use this Pokémon a lot in examples but what can you do). We all know how Mega Metagross was basically portrayed as the most broken Pokémon to ever walk the face of the earth up until its suspect test. Then we started getting the "but if its broken then fairy types will run OU" arguments. While I don't necessarily agree with that, let's look at it another way. Say that Smogon also suspect tested Gardevoirite and Diancite beside it. I'm more than certain that all three of them would have been shipped to Ubers (maybe not Diancite, I can't recall if it was as popular back then as it is now).

Anyway, I think that Smogon has a very good way of setting the tiers up: By usage. I don't have any major concerns with it, and there isn't really a better way to group Pokémon that comes to mind right now. Usage does give you a great estimation on how well any Pokémon will perform when facing others that we find to be equal in power or effectiveness when performing a certain role. The suspect tests could probably use an overhaul, but I really couldn't think of how to approach that problem right now. Maybe change the way reqs are required so that more experienced players get reqs and not someone who did 741 battles just to meet the requirements lol.

This is really interesting. If they suspected top megas together, that would honestly make a lot of sense. I suspect the inefficiencies of DPP suspect testing probably prevent this from happening--who could forget Manaphy unbanning blue balls?--but now that you mention it, that makes a lot of sense.

(Also, if they tested Diancite, Altarianite, and Metagrossite together, I feel like the latter two would almost certainly get banned. Gardevoirite isn't getting banned ever.)

 

[Polar Spectrum]

Yaaay it didn't turn into one of those threads

To lay a basis for what I consider 'unhealthy' I need to first state that I feel the labels 'broken' and 'unhealthy' are both to a degree subjective. "broken' - less so than unhealthy, because there are immediate and observable scenarios in which something can be distinctly measured as creating an irreversible imbalance in a game (or meta). "Unhealthy" though, is much more subjective I would say - because the ideal "healthy" metagame is not and will never be something that is unanimously agreed upon in nature. There has never been a 100% pro or anti ban suspect test by swagon, and there is no singular pokemon, move, ability, mechanic etc that everyone thinks is 'unhealthy'. There are majorities, and community standards - but until everyone just sits around in a giant circle jerk agreeing with one another that everything's pretty perfect in competitive pokemon right now and that nothing is out of balance, (woe be upon that day) there is no universal 'unhealthy' or 'healthy' label that can be objectively used by everyone. That being said, I'm also biased by format since I no longer follow the singles meta very closely at all.

What I would personally say constitutes 'unhealthy', is something that does a myriad things. Locking other pokemon out of usage, neutralizing entire playstyles, centralizing usage around being dealt with, all things I would say create an unpleasant and unappealing competitive game to play in. For me, something like that is Sylveon. Its specs set running bold/modest with pixellate and hyper voice is very limiting to face in doubles. Pokemon become useless before the match even begins seeing it in team preview, to where I don't bring certain things into ratings battles anymore, and even in bringing a team to prepare for it - things often have to be sacrificed to keep it from single handedly pulling a match. Yes yes, but heatran. But Heatran is the only thing that 4 x resists fairy, in ALL pokemon right now. There are other things that can tank those hits, buts they're limited. And needing to use them, is limiting for a team. And thus, a playstyle. Not to mention, many are niche.

I'd also like to respond to a few things above -

Jared - lel. Agreed on most of that; but I would really REALLY not use something being 'unpredictable' as a reason for being either unhealthy or broken. Scouting is a thing; and if it's not inherently broken, whatever it wants to do should have a way of being dealt with. This can tie into singles format hindrances to gameplay, but I'm too tired to talk about that too.

Syn - I reeeally like the idea of them testing multiple things at once. I wish they would. I think if that were their method for carrying those tests out, it would be less of a community media and gossip point and more of an analyzation. When I say this, I'm referring to how every time anything goes up into a suspect test it's met with knee jerk reactions from both direction on occasion. Instant 'yeah I hate that it needs to be banned' and 'what no that's totally my fav, the hell - don't ban that' and more of an actual thought process about what changes with multiple points of the meta being altered. ie; the aforementioned mega meta example. I'm just echoing your thing here but rephrased - Mega Metagross went up to bat alone. If he went up alongside fairies that people feared - more would be considered than the fact that "it scares fairies". I'm split on basing tiers on usage though. I don't agree with that at all, but I also don't subscribe to that system and am thus not reeeeeally affected by it. My primary complaint / criticism would be in looking at wether something that was the absolute top of the usage data was just incredibly overused or in fact broken / unhealthy. Most of the things that have been banned recently (or nominated for the honor) haven't actually been top usage. Things that are currently top usage (to the best of my data mining on swagon for about 20 minutes) aren't even being discussed as broken. (please correct this if my searches results were inaccurate.) The point here being usage is just as subjective as labeling - usage fluctuates as well though. And woe be upon the meta that stagnates to the point of no variability in usage.

I was gonna type more but honestly this post took a lot longer than I though :I Sawry

 

[Dark Azelf]

"Unhealthy" though, is much more subjective I would say - because the ideal "healthy" metagame is not and will never be something that is unanimously agreed upon in nature. There has never been a 100% pro or anti ban suspect test by swagon, and there is no singular pokemon, move, ability, mechanic etc that everyone thinks is 'unhealthy'. There are majorities, and community standards - but until everyone just sits around in a giant circle jerk agreeing with one another that everything's pretty perfect in competitive pokemon right now and that nothing is out of balance, (woe be upon that day) there is no universal 'unhealthy' or 'healthy' label that can be objectively used by everyone. That being said, I'm also biased by format since I no longer follow the singles meta very closely at all.

Actually Shaymin-S got a 100% pro ban last gen iirc and something else did iirc but i cant remember. Also HG/SS OU and HG/SS UU were pretty much close to perfect and balanced in most peoples eyes and alot of people agreed with this. :P

My primary complaint / criticism would be in looking at wether something that was the absolute top of the usage data was just incredibly overused or in fact broken / unhealthy. Most of the things that have been banned recently (or nominated for the honor) haven't actually been top usage.

Well i mean this is always going to be a factor. I mean in DP Wobbuffet was like fourty something in usage when it was re-banned again lol. Its kind of the same with Gothitelle, everyone basically agrees that its broken and unhealthy, adds nothing to ou and takes skill out of the game (and is literally admitting you are shit at wallbreaking) but somehow it seems to still be ou. :\