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What do you say to the suggestion that there will never be a good Pokemon fangame because Pokemon can't have a good story or gameplay?

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    What do you say to the suggestion that there will never be a good Pokemon fangame because the qualities people look for in a good story, and a good gameplay experience, are antithetical to Pokemon as a concept, and that is why so many games are either mocked for being "edgier" than people feel Pokemon "should" be or ignored?

    I don't agree with this suggestion. I'm just curious what you have to say about it.
     
    What do you say to the suggestion that there will never be a good Pokemon fangame because the qualities people look for in a good story, and a good gameplay experience, are antithetical to Pokemon as a concept, and that is why so many games are either mocked for being "edgier" than people feel Pokemon "should" be or ignored?

    I don't agree with this suggestion. I'm just curious what you have to say about it.

    (Moved this over to Fan Game Hub. Deals with fan games. Suits that subforum a little better.)

    ___________

    Nonsense. Why are people creating and/or playing fangames if they did not like Pokemon's story or gameplay? Would have put it down and played something else, surely.

    Presumes some people here to have played a good fangame, also.
     
    there will never be a good Pokemon fangame because the qualities people look for in a good story, and a good gameplay experience, are antithetical to Pokemon as a concept,

    This is the first I ever hear about it and honestly it would surprise me if anyone solidly believes this. Monster Hunter Stories 2: Wings of Ruin, which is by most metrics the best Pokémon game up to end of 2022, while it's not Shakespeare or El Mío Cid levels of storyline certainly works quite well within the confines of what a story can do when you give the protag a Doomsday McGuffin as a starter. It plus the PMD games certainly prove that it is possible to tell a relatable story by the tune of a Pokémon engine.

    Actually, I'm interested, where are you getting this from? What are those storyline "qualities" that people speak of that are somehow antithetical to Pokémon as a very concept? Because whatever those qualities are, boy sure did Movies 2, 3, 4, 5 and 8 absolutely missed them!
     
    Final Fantasy X is... Can I spoil it here? It's like spoiling who Darth Vader is. But I think it's a good example to bring up. This was said to me by someone who's trying to play every RPG.

    Final Fantasy X has the best pacing out of any RPG I've played that didn't mix other elements into the RPG combat like Undertale's bullet hell sections or the real time combat in Fallout NV or Kingdom Hearts. Switching party members is quick. Every party member has their specialty to make dealing with trash mobs on your way to the next boss a breeze. Your agile guy hits foes who dodge, your ball guy hits flying enemies, Auron is your tank and he crushes armoured foes, Rikku can use Mix to mix items and break the game in half or Steal useful items (and you can even Steal parts from some enemies to instakill them), the combat is designed around your characters, and Yuna's summons are designed to feel like big deals. The Overkill system rewards players who destroy enemies with massive damage. The Overdrive system lets you fill a meter for big damage and do a super like it's a fighting game, but you decide what action fills the meter as you unlock more options. There are not 900 characters you could have in your team at any given time. You won't stumble into an area 20 levels above your strongest character, win slowly using a ton of healing items that you'd normally never have to use during regular gameplay, rush back to the intended area, and find yourself overlevelled, and wonder why the NPCs are unable to react to your sequence breaking like they could in Fallout New Vegas. And while some might complain about the long cutscenes between gameplay, that's like complaining about LOTR's length. This game doesn't "want to be" a movie in the way the new God Of War does, it doesn't religiously reject cutting or fading to black out of a belief that long dull stretches of content designed to obscure loading screens will make their games "more cinematic". Yeah, a movie called 1917 had no cuts, but Prince of Persia did "no cuts" better by changing your fail state from "die, retry" to "almost die, undo, retry". This game's cutscenes have so much narration from Tidus, it sometimes feels like you're listening to an audiobook. Contextualizing the world, and the adventure, through this lens of a reliable narrator who's at the end of the journey you're starting. Plus the FFX cutscenes are skippable with a mod, and FFX-2's are skippable without a mod.

    Final Fantasy X is about a girl called Yuna who is going on a quest to die. Tidus helps her, unaware of this. He often says stuff along their journey like "When we're done with this pilgrimage, let's come back here!" and those who know just look at him, they don't have the heart to tell him. She is going to die for the good of others, sacrificing herself to buy a brief window of time without Sin attacks. When he finds out, he breaks down, and that bird thing Yuna summons comforts him because it understands. Yuna and Tidus bond, and there's a romance subplot between them, and there's a religion called Yevon that says technology is evil and illegal (unless the Church approves of it) and that giant water monster named Sin rampaging all over the place is humanity's punishment for previous misdeeds. The random encounter monsters you fight along the way are unsent spirits, they're the ghosts of dead people, and when people die, Yuna has to dance and twirl her staff around and put on a happy face as if everything's fine to try and help send these spirits to the afterlife before they become monsters. Each location they visit is beautifully rendered in 3D with cinematic camera angles and countless voice acted NPCs, and this is on the PS2, a console only slightly stronger than the Nintendo Switch, but it has a moddable HD PC port with jaw dropping beauty. While it strives for realism in so many areas it doesn't let this get in the way of the art style or the aesthetic like so many other games striving for realism. Yuna and her friends all explore the game's themes of religion and death from different angles and perspectives. There's a girl from a culture loathed by those outside it for breaking the rules of Yevon and using technology. There's a true believer in his religion who hates the Al Bhed and is shocked when his religion turns out to be hypocritical nonsense designed to control people. Wakka and Rikku, Yuna and Tidus... this stuff wouldn't be possible in Pokemon. You can't get this sort of worldbuilding and character growth with characters who always accompany you in a Pokemon game. You can't replicate it with recurring rivals or Gym Leaders or Elite Four members. Death and religion and love matter in Final Fantasy X, more so than Pokemon. But in Pokemon, nothing matters more than the Pokemon, and any protagonist who can pick up an Ultra Ball and use it on a strong Pokemon and solo every Gym Leader and Elite Four and Champ with it or his starter in a world where Youngster Joey and his perpetually weak Rattata have no opinion on regional politics or religion. And in Pokemon, characters who want to follow you around but won't help you in double battles or heal your pokemon at will need an excuse for being that way like "I want to be something unrelated to Pokemon battles like a Pokemon Breeder or Pokemon Contest winner". They need an asterisk that explains why they aren't as obsessed with Pokemon battles as everyone else despite having names.
     
    What do you say to the suggestion that there will never be a good Pokemon fangame because the qualities people look for in a good story, and a good gameplay experience, are antithetical to Pokemon as a concept,

    There is no logical rationale that good pokemon gameplay and a good story are mutual exclusive things. A traditional pokemon game is, at its core, really nothing more than a fantasy turn-based JRPG wherein little monsters are used and collected instead of spell books and magic weapons. The trick is to understand how a proper "story" is actually structured and how to flesh that out with interesting characters, but that is something that can only be developed by reading a lot of good literature.

    and that is why so many games are either mocked for being "edgier" than people feel Pokemon "should" be or ignored?

    Because fan game writing tends to truly be poor and/or juvenile.

    Why so? Because these fan games are often being written by people who are simply too young or too inexperienced to churn out engaging and high-level writing. If a fan-game is written by a middle-schooler, then expect writing that's at the middle-school level. If it's written by some dude who only reads junkfood-style fanfiction, then expect it to read like junkfood fanfiction. If the writer's only idea of "mature" is formed by a game-rating logo, then expect a "mature" story from that writer to have lots of sex, violence, and F-bombs with no greater meaning or context. A lot of the more well-known fan games have been around for a long time now, and they were started by people in high-school. Ever had to read high-school short stories? They are completely cringe almost as a rule.

    Why don't older and more experienced fans write a fan game at a college reading level that's full of dynamic characters within a timeless tale? Because they all have other responsibilities to attend to: exams, jobs, spouses, children, etc. All the wonderful JRPGs with great writing were done by professional writers getting a paycheck for all the time they pour into scripts. But Sarah the 30-year-old test engineer can't do that because she needs to have that latest TPS report done by Friday and pick her kids up from preschool every day by 5:00. It's a lot easier to work on a fan game when you are in middle or high school and your life obligations are few to none.
     
    One of the most basic tricks to interweave gameplay and story is to unlock a new power for a character when a milestone of character development or forward progress is reached in the story.

    You made it to the Water Tribe land? You learn Waterbending now. You overcame your fear of Thunder? Now you can cast Thunder magic.

    Pokemon can't do this. Your Charizard can't have a simulated personality that changes depending on how you treat him and what you teach him because that would get in the way of having total control over battles.

    A new power could be unlocked for the player like Mega Evolution or Dynamax or whatever this game's gimmick is. But how many games lock this gimmick behind a pivotal story moment instead of overhyping this gimmick by making almost every character endlessly babble about it?

    How many games had the sense to give something like Mega Evolution to villains and a Rival intended to be a challenge and a threat long before allowing the player to earn it?
     
    In my opinion, Pokemon is what it is. The gameplay is not overly deep, the story often needs to work around the mechanics ("oh this 10 year old kid beat my Zubat, guess I have to let him pass now"), and at it's heart it's really just about collecting a bunch of cool monsters and battling other cool monsters.

    And that's okay. Pokemon is what it is. It doesn't have to have a crazy deep story; it doesn't have to be super-challenging to master. The game has earned Nintendo billions with very little alterations to the overarching structure in over 25 years. I say let other games fill the niches of being super-challenging with deep stories. I like the more relaxed approach Pokemon takes.
     
    One of the most basic tricks to interweave gameplay and story is to unlock a new power for a character when a milestone of character development or forward progress is reached in the story.

    You made it to the Water Tribe land? You learn Waterbending now. You overcame your fear of Thunder? Now you can cast Thunder magic.

    Pokemon can't do this. Your Charizard can't have a simulated personality that changes depending on how you treat him and what you teach him because that would get in the way of having total control over battles.

    Of course Pokémon can do this. But instead of Thunder magic or Waterbending we call it HMs / TMs / MTs.
    You can also reward player progression and engagement with new Pokemon available, or with items, or with legendaries, or so forth.

    A new power could be unlocked for the player like Mega Evolution or Dynamax or whatever this game's gimmick is. But how many games lock this gimmick behind a pivotal story moment instead of overhyping this gimmick by making almost every character endlessly babble about it?

    How many games had the sense to give something like Mega Evolution to villains and a Rival intended to be a challenge and a threat long before allowing the player to earn it?
    The former is subjective (your "overhyping" is someone's "establishing the mechanic"), but even in the cases I'd agree it was bad, that's easily explained by the fact that your average hacksmith or fandev just aren't good writers.

    Not only do they usually skew young (which tends to mean not a lot of maturity, be it literary or in general) but they also skew to well, being more in the dev / STEM space, and people there usually aren't great writers.

    And as for the latter, it's probably both a combination of following the retail example and a sense of fairness / game balance. Hard for the sake of hard isn't fun, it's frustrating because it feels like a cheap loss. So putting rival battles or boss battles (which are usually ambushes / in the middle of a dungeon) with strong mechanics you can't use or might not even know you need to prepare for often feels cheap from a user's perspective, like the games of old where someone with legendaries showed up or where the level curve jumped 10 levels out of nowhere.

    But if you really want to and design your game from the ground up based on the concept of "being the Dark Souls of Pokemon" or whatever, then sure, you could do stuff like this.

    I don't think Pokemon games are perfect - there are many mechanics I'd change - but there's also nothing in them that are inherently bad or something of the like. Same thing with story.

    The thing holding back retail games are the younger rating, so they're afraid of doing more complex things (and the burn from the fifth generation, although things are slowly changing). The thing holding back fangames are the writers.
     
    What those people mean, probably, is that Pokémon fan-games that try so hard to have a super serious, dark, deep, and edgy story with endless wall of dialogues, will fail miserably at the end, because there's so much serious writing you can shoehorn into a fictional universe that from a realistic point of view is so childish, naive, and hardly makes sense.

    Besides, adding gratuitous darkness, blood, curse words, and drug refferences doesn't necessarily make a story more mature. It can have actually the opposite effect, unless those elements do contribute to the storytelling and character building, and don't just feel shoved in there just for the sake of making everything as edgy as possible.

    That said... How many players care about the story in Pokémon games anyway? Probably around 1%, so even if someone can create an amazing story, it'd be probably wiser to use it on something else rather than wasting it on a Pokémon game. Story has nothing to do with gameplay, as a game can have a trash story and that won't make it any less fun to play. The "story" in most Mario games is just rescuing the princess from evil dragon and save the kingdom, and it's one of the most iconic videogame franchises.

    Pokémon is played for its gameplay, which can be good or not depending on each players' personal tastes, that's completely subjective, same as any other franchise. Some franchises need a decent story to work (the Trails series for example), because it's a very important element for them, but that was never the case with Pokémon.
     
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