Whats up with the hate of Pokemon Ultra Sun and Pokemon Ultra Moon?

[The Evil Mewtwo]

I don't get it, there is a lot of hate for Pokemon Ultra Sun and Pokemon Ultra Moon because those games are good as and they are lot different to Pokemon Sun and Pokemon Moon because of the difficulty. Or maybe if it was the Pokemon Stars rumour what caused the hate?

 

[colours]

tl;dr from this post: people being overly picky about what their expectations are for a third game is where the hate is coming from, which is ridiculous lol.

From most of the people that I've spoken to, it amazes me how the #1 comment is "wow, these games feel so similar to SM!" as if any other third game wasn't already extremely similar to their predecessors in some manner. As I've said many times before on this forum, being a third game, USUM is bound to already bear extreme similarities to SM. Whether or not you're a fan of this practice of releasing third games that might as well be DLC is subjective and a subject for another time, but here we are anyway playing the same kind of third games that Game Freak has developed since forever; nothing has changed in that regard, really.

Another part of it is because the "new gen hype" is starting to wear off for some people. When SM was announced, it got a lot of people really excited for Gen VII because it felt like a breath of fresh air from your traditional Pokemon game. There was a lot of hype around the new Pokemon, a lot of hype around the new features, things like that. Of course, over time, hype is bound to wear down, and then people start seeing things in an unnecessarily overly analytical light. For some reason this tends to be The Thing around when third games are released and then people somehow start to appreciate them like years later which is kinda silly to me but w/e.

Third games, to me, have always been about improving the little things here and there, as well as adding a more enjoyable post-game experience. That was what Crystal was about, that was what Emerald was about, that was what Platinum was about and that's exactly what USUM is about. I don't think USUM is meant to be a complete overhaul of SM in any sense and I'm not sure where people got the impression or expectation that it was somehow supposed to be.

But don't let people's hate deter you from enjoying the games, really! USUM are my favourite pair of third games, simply because SM were great enough games as it is (sans post-game) and USUM improved upon that experience. I've liked what they've done with Guzma and Lusamine's character compared to SM, I liked the plot changes, the small changes to how trials are done are really nice. I'm already heading into the E4 and I genuinely cannot wait to challenge Rainbow Rocket. I can't wait to go into Ultra Wormholes and get shiny Pokemon and catch legendaries! Mantine Surfing is extremely fun, Roto Powers are REALLY useful for early-mid game grinding, and the difficulty curve is much appreciated.

I mean that by the way; I genuinely had a lot of trouble with some of the newer Totem Pokemon compared to SM! Game Freak got the difficulty aspect right this time around -- they've made Pokemon games appropriately (key word here) challenging while keeping them whimsically fun at the same time. I know I would certainly do Trials any day of the week compared to boring Gym Leader puzzles lol......

By no means are USUM a perfect pair of games, but really, can you genuinely say that about any Pokemon game ever? If you enjoy it, fuck what everyone else thinks about it, that's the truth. Just know that you're not the only one that loves these damn pair of games, because you're not.

 

[Kieran]

Tbvh because of BW2, it does set the expectation level much higher than just an sister game to the originals.

A lot of people expected a lot more changes comparable to that of the differences between BW and BW2; That's why you get let down a lot when the first half of USUM literally is just a 95% identical game as SuMo.

The hypes they built up for USUM was really big too, they made such an big issue about USUM being soooo good and making everyone expected very different story (Since it's set in an alternate universe afterall) so the disappointment is very understandable.

I was very annoying and irritated at the first half of my gamethrough, afterall, I had played both Sun and Moon and it doesn't help I am running through the same thing for the 3rd time, which I am sure others would have it worse for the ones whom replayed the previous games multiple times.

 

[Nah]

everything gets some hate really, regardless of how good or bad it is

US/UM are the newest things, and people have probably gotten their fill of hating on S/M, so now it's US/UM's turn. And then when the next main series game(s) come out, the same thing will happen all over over again

that and people probably got themselves way too hyped up (protip: never get hyped up for anything anymore, the product never matches your level of hype)

 

[Spyro]

For my part, I like USUM better than Sun & Moon. However, I got burned out from Sun & Moon during my 3rd playthrough and struggled to continue playing. It was one of the first time I didn't feel like continuing a Pokémon game anymore, and I realized I disliked a lot of things from SuMo in the first place.

Sadly, those things I didn't like are present in USUM, making the game feel like a chore to me. I can't say I'm surprised more than 90% of the game is the same, since it launched just a year after SuMo. However, BW2 raised the expectation bar for a 3rd game and it's normal fans would expect just as much for USUM, regardless of the time it took to ship.

Honestly, I would probably have enjoyed USUM if I didn't play SuMo first, or if I played it just once. For me, it is Sun & Moon that ruined the fun of Ultra Sun & Moon. I didn't have that problem with similar 3rd version like Platinum & Emerald, because I really enjoyed Diamond & Sapphire and never got bored to play.

But everyone can enjoy or dislike the games, my opinion shouldn't matter on how you view the games. I personally am just disapointed in USUM, yet I find they are still much better than SuMo, especially because of the challenge a small overhauls to the world.

 

[pryce10]

people say it is 95% like Sun and Moon...

HOW? Because it reuses same characters? Because it takes place in same Island?

It is like 80% similar... it stops being similar once you leave your home Island.
It

 

[pryce10]

And honestly... I don't get how people are saying it is less similar than Emerald, Platinum and BW2? ( K BW2 are bit different since it is sequel)

For one, unlike Emerald and Platinum role each of the characters plays are vastly different- especially Aether Foundation.
And there is more depth into existing characters- again unlike emerald and Pt in which we don't really get that much into our rival or villains ( ok there was that Cyrus grandfather added in Plt but that was it)

and I hear people are complaining about added difficulty... WHERE WERE THEY WHEN PEOPLE SAID X AND Y WAS TOO EASY!!!! AND COMPLAINING KALOS ELITE FOR WAS THE WORST BECAUSE IT WAS TOO EASY?!!!
NO PLEASING THEM!

 

[User19sq]

As said above, it's because it's the third version. I don't find it too jarring, personally; there's enough to coax a replay. Hell, just the fact that

Spoiler:

Mega Rayquaza has been dethroned

was enough for me.

But there are areas where this is blatant. Ex:

Spoiler:

After Lusamine's encounter with Nihilego, the Ultra Recon Squad shows up for a brief moment, but suddenly disappear halfway through the scene, before Lusamine even shows you out. They should've just kept them there for the whole cutscene.

 

[The Evil Mewtwo]

Yes Pokemon Ultra Sun and Pokemon Ultra Moon are really good games after all but then the game is so hard and the characters and islands resume. There was really good characters like Lillie and Gladion. Team Rainbow Rocket was good as. I enjoyed the Ultra Wormhole hunting legendary Pokemon. I don't think the games is similar at all.

 

[mew_nani]

People are complaining the games are too hard? Why? They're not unbeatable. The games aren't a cakewalk; they make you use your brain if you want to win, but I wouldn't even call the set the hardest Pokemon games in existence since Diamond, Pearl, and Yellow still exist. I'd much rather have games like these that kicked my butt and really challenged me in a fair way than have X and Y which were far too easy and took barely any effort to clear. I'd complain way more if the games were cheap but honestly they're anything but.

 

[Hikamaru]

Colours said it right, but I do admit most of the disappointment seems to come from the fact it's just an "enhanced Sun & Moon", and when you consider how high B2/W2 set the standards for enhanced versions, you can see why people were let down with most of the story playing out like in S/M, but thankfully the differences become more noticeable as you progress further into the game.

 

[Embyr]

So wait, can someone clairify to me how hard USUM eventually get?

My first play through of Moon I played the majority of the game with the EXP share off because it was just far too easy otherwise, I only turned it back on when at the end of the game I was 7 levels below the average trainer climbing up towards the E4.

I'm at the fire trial right now and haven't bothered turning off the EXP share out of sheer laziness so I'm severely over leveled. If I continue how I am now will I end up over leveled or will the game kick up it's difficulty higher than S&M's was?

 

[Arjay]

I've just arrived on the third island and I'm already bored. It's been near identical to SM up to now, even right down to the dialogue spoken by most of the characters and NPCs. Does it get better the further in you get? Because honestly, I'm struggling to pick up my 3DS at the moment.

 

[Spyro]

I've just arrived on the third island and I'm already bored. It's been near identical to SM up to now, even right down to the dialogue spoken by most of the characters and NPCs. Does it get better the further in you get? Because honestly, I'm struggling to pick up my 3DS at the moment.

Sadly it doesn't...most of the dialogues are identical so I ended up mashing A in every cinematic. The 3rd island is really the most boring to me, so I wish you luck :c

 

[Aliencommander1245]

I think it's generally the superior version, it changes a lot in very small ways and just makes the entire experience a lot more fun all 'round. I do have some story issues with some... questionable changes they made

Spoiler:

In particular, the half dump of Lilly's character arc for... no real reason? They really push Hau as the new big character instead but it's always incredibly jarring when they try to do it because they don't add any new scenes and just add some very strange dialogue into ones from SM. One thing in particular that bugged me was those three-ish times someone would just randomly go "Hau, you don't need to live in your grandfather's shadow, be your own man" in a way completely disconnected from the rest of the scene that hau doesn't even react or reply to. It's just... confusing, strange and poorly executed.

The cutting of a bunch of scenes with Lilly for no real reason either is also just a weird decision, and it makes the culmination of her arc with her mother a lot more jarring too. You get up to the point where Lilly in SM calls her mother out for being an abusive sociopath and... she doesn't do that? Her and Gladion like her a lot more sometimes for reasons I don't really understand, because she's still fundamentally an abusive woman who views things she likes as toys, but she never really gets called out for it in USUM?

Her entire thing of getting beaten down and Lilly stepping up to take care of her is completely gone, and instead she just off-screen talks it out with Lilly when you're not around but it doesn't actually seem to resolve or fix anything in the story. This is the same Lusamine that froze and basically murdered a bunch of pokemon, with plans to kill nebby, but she just gets away with it in this timeline because there's a bigger bad around that you have to fight. She even gets to keep control of her company for some reason, despite being outed as being an awful person with ideals opposing those of her company?

Overall i liked most of the changes, but these were pretty egregious and don't even make sense narratively

 

[The Green One]

Completely agree with the above post about Lillie.

 

[Ducolamia]

I think it's generally the superior version, it changes a lot in very small ways and just makes the entire experience a lot more fun all 'round. I do have some story issues with some... questionable changes they made

Spoiler:

In particular, the half dump of Lilly's character arc for... no real reason? They really push Hau as the new big character instead but it's always incredibly jarring when they try to do it because they don't add any new scenes and just add some very strange dialogue into ones from SM. One thing in particular that bugged me was those three-ish times someone would just randomly go "Hau, you don't need to live in your grandfather's shadow, be your own man" in a way completely disconnected from the rest of the scene that hau doesn't even react or reply to. It's just... confusing, strange and poorly executed.

The cutting of a bunch of scenes with Lilly for no real reason either is also just a weird decision, and it makes the culmination of her arc with her mother a lot more jarring too. You get up to the point where Lilly in SM calls her mother out for being an abusive sociopath and... she doesn't do that? Her and Gladion like her a lot more sometimes for reasons I don't really understand, because she's still fundamentally an abusive woman who views things she likes as toys, but she never really gets called out for it in USUM?

Her entire thing of getting beaten down and Lilly stepping up to take care of her is completely gone, and instead she just off-screen talks it out with Lilly when you're not around but it doesn't actually seem to resolve or fix anything in the story. This is the same Lusamine that froze and basically murdered a bunch of pokemon, with plans to kill nebby, but she just gets away with it in this timeline because there's a bigger bad around that you have to fight. She even gets to keep control of her company for some reason, despite being outed as being an awful person with ideals opposing those of her company?

Overall i liked most of the changes, but these were pretty egregious and don't even make sense narratively

THIS ^ ^ ^

If you were a fan of Lillie in SM prepared to be thoroughly disappointed.

 

[mew_nani]

Well you could say that the game leaves more to your imagination, but lets be honest, the games suffered the same kind of problem the first set did; they were rushed. Not enough care was put into everything that wasn't the story the first time, and this time not enough care was put into the story and some of the characters because they reused assets.

Spoiler:

If they wanted to present Lusamine as a knight templar parent who genuinely cared about her kids but was too damaged by losing her husband to let them grow up and too arrogant to see it they shouldn't have kept her room full of frozen Pokemon. If they wanted to present Lusamine as a villain, just less insane, she shouldn't have reformed so easily at the end. Same deal with Lillie; all her problems get resolved offscreen, and we go from both her and Gladion thinking Lusamine is evil to everything being forgiven while we're not in earshot while not really getting enough information about their relationship with her in game, which you'd have to have played Sun and Moon through to have context for. Are they spoiled brats? Do they have a horrible miscommunication problem with their mom? No, because she still acts mean towards them kind of like she did before, but if she's abusive like that then why does a simple conversation fix everything? They were so busy putting in gameplay features that the story this time was more of an afterthought, and thus Lusamine and Lillie were mishandled and other characters like the Ultra Recon Squad and Nebby were underutilized.

That isn't to say the game itself it's bad, but it's certainly flawed. Not enough for the hate it gets though, but it's definitely flawed.

 

[pixelani]

Well you could say that the game leaves more to your imagination, but lets be honest, the games suffered the same kind of problem the first set did; they were rushed.

I just briefly want to nitpick here: I'm not sure I entirely understand this perspective. It took Game Freak over two years to develop and release Sun and Moon after the end of the sixth generation; that's a pretty standard gap, and it's actually a little longer than the average. It then took them almost exactly a year to create these newest entries.

Compared to the rest of the main series, at least, it doesn't seem that the timeline fits the "rushed" assessment that I see so frequently. There's nothing that really suggests that there's unfinished content that was ever planned to be in the game - with Lusamine in particular, there's no indication they ever intended to deal with any of what you addressed. With things like the Ultra Megalopolis as mentioned by a previous post, there's no indication they ever intended it to be more fleshed-out in-game than it is now. We should have bits and pieces left in the game or code to suggest those things if that were to be the case. To me, being rushed would mean that they intended to deal with these things in a more detailed way, and then decided to scrap and truncate just to meet an arbitrary deadline, and that honestly doesn't seem to be the case.

The alternative to what we have now is waiting three years for just one game, and either having each generation only include one pair or having generations last perhaps the better part of a decade. That's at least what I get from people feeling like things are "rushed," you know? We all would love even more content, even more plot and character development, but to get the level that it seems people are beginning to expect, a much longer development time would be necessary. The nuance and detail that would go into further characterization in a way that is appropriate to each version of the story would take a decent amount of time; designing models and maps and bug testing new areas would take significant time.

I just don't fully understand the perspective that any of the seventh generation has been rushed when Sun and Moon felt complete but for moments and features that were intentionally left for these new versions, and when these versions appear to accomplish everything they were ever intended to do.

 

[Alexander18]

I think Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon are the best of the generation. Great improved story, nice post game, more pokemon to collect and so on.

The one thing i didn't like is Lillie still doing basically nothing in the games. Having a clefairy made no difference. If there was one useful thing she did, it was healing my team when battling evil team leaders but any other character could have done that.