Why was Pokemon Z skipped?

[mikey]

I don't understand the fascination with Z either. I'd rather play a new game than one I already played, with most likely only a little more story and probably a bit more post game. I'd rather a whole new region to explore and Pokemon to see!

 

[Guest123_x1]

I'm guessing Z was skipped altogether due to the lukewarm response to X/Y by most of the Pokémon fanbase. Of course, there's the fact that every media franchise will peak in popularity at some point, then decline for a very long time afterwards. Even Mickey Mouse (whose last new single-reel theatrical animated short during the Golden Age of Animation was released in 1953, long after Donald Duck had eclipsed him in popularity) and Mario have had their share of ups and downs over the years, although both these franchises are still widely recognized by the general public today.

Piggybacking on re-releases such as the Virtual Console issues of Generation I, reissues of material originally made years ago is one of the key ways to milk money out of a media franchise rather than go through the expense of making all-new games/cartoons/movies/music/whatever else.

 

[Hikamaru]

I don't understand the fascination with Z either. I'd rather play a new game than one I already played, with most likely only a little more story and probably a bit more post game. I'd rather a whole new region to explore and Pokemon to see!

It was mainly due to the new Zygarde forms debuting in the anime, and everyone thought Zygarde would get its own game. But in the end I'm actually happier we got a new generation since it had been three years since X/Y and most generations tend to last three years, and it would have been terrible to waste the 20th anniversary on an enhanced X/Y version, especially with how terrible Kalos was as a region.

I'm guessing Z was skipped altogether due to the lukewarm response to X/Y by most of the Pokémon fanbase. Of course, there's the fact that every media franchise will peak in popularity at some point, then decline for a very long time afterwards. Even Mickey Mouse (whose last new single-reel theatrical animated short during the Golden Age of Animation was released in 1953, long after Donald Duck had eclipsed him in popularity) and Mario have had their share of ups and downs over the years, although both these franchises are still widely recognized by the general public today.

One thing to also remember is Pokemon is facing stiff competition from other franchises in Japan, the most notable rival right now being Yo-Kai Watch. I also believed the Rotom Pokedex may have been inspired by Whisper's role in the Yo-Kai Watch anime in that he's a companion to Keita (or Nate as he's known in the dub) and I think Game Freak are taking some ideas inspired by Yo-Kai Watch to try and win Pokemon fans back.

 

[WingsofBliss]

I don't think the disappointment from fans is the lack of a "Z" game... it has to do with Zygarde itself. Despite the hilarious complaints about Zygarde ripping off Cell from DBZ, I think a lot of people were hyped into obtaining Zygarde's other Formes and getting an interesting story and lore about it. And FYI, people weren't necessarily wanting a 3rd version... I've seen plenty of people say that they would have preferred Game Freak to go the BW2 route(no pun intended) and make sequels to XY instead of the same-old 3rd version. The reason why people were calling it "Z" was because that's what was getting plastered all over the marketing campaign when it came to Zygarde merch and appearances.

I mean, you can't exactly blame the fans on this one. It's how the marketing was handled, with Zygarde and the label of "Z" getting plastered all over the place. On top of that, a huge chunk of the fans firmly believe that Game Freak are stuck in a rut when it comes to ideas and always follow a "pattern". What exactly do you expect for the reactions and expectations to be?

 

[BettyNewbie]

I'm speculating that the post-game content in S&M will have to do with Zygarde and Kalos in general, meaning we might get to go back to Kalos in S&M (just like how we went back to Kanto in G/S/C post-game).

I think that's the most plausible explanation as to why Pokemon Z was skipped.

That's pretty much Kalos' only hope at this point, but most of what I've seen about SM so far seems to point towards yet another isolated reboot region with few-to-no connections to the previous ones. In fact, these games are looking more and more like a throwback/love letter to Hoenn and Sinnoh (and Unova, to a lesser extent) more than anything else, as if we didn't already get Gen 3 nostalgia shoved down our throats enough in Gen 6. :rolleyes2:

I don't think the disappointment from fans is the lack of a "Z" game... it has to do with Zygarde itself. Despite the hilarious complaints about Zygarde ripping off Cell from DBZ, I think a lot of people were hyped into obtaining Zygarde's other Formes and getting an interesting story and lore about it. And FYI, people weren't necessarily wanting a 3rd version... I've seen plenty of people say that they would have preferred Game Freak to go the BW2 route(no pun intended) and make sequels to XY instead of the same-old 3rd version. The reason why people were calling it "Z" was because that's what was getting plastered all over the marketing campaign when it came to Zygarde merch and appearances.

I mean, you can't exactly blame the fans on this one. It's how the marketing was handled, with Zygarde and the label of "Z" getting plastered all over the place. On top of that, a huge chunk of the fans firmly believe that Game Freak are stuck in a rut when it comes to ideas and always follow a "pattern". What exactly do you expect for the reactions and expectations to be?

I was one of those fans who would've loved to see Kalos sequels, whether they were done in B2W2 style (same generation) or GSC style (new generation). I'm also one of those fans who thinks that GF is stuck in a rut and would like to see something fresh and different from them, which sequels had the potential to be.

Almost everything I've heard about SM so far completely disappoints me and doesn't suggest that the games will be anything more than a bland RSE retread (with some DPP and BW elements mixed in). Like, didn't we just remake those games? How much longer can GF continue to beat the Gen 3 nostalgia drum? :rolleyes2:

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

That's pretty much Kalos' only hope at this point, but most of what I've seen about SM so far seems to point towards yet another isolated reboot region with few-to-no connections to the previous ones. In fact, these games are looking more and more like a throwback/love letter to Hoenn and Sinnoh (and Unova, to a lesser extent) more than anything else, as if we didn't already get Gen 3 nostalgia shoved down our throats enough in Gen 6. :rolleyes2:



I was one of those fans who would've loved to see Kalos sequels, whether they were done in B2W2 style (same generation) or GSC style (new generation). I'm also one of those fans who thinks that GF is stuck in a rut and would like to see something fresh and different from them, which sequels had the potential to be.

Almost everything I've heard about SM so far completely disappoints me and doesn't suggest that the games will be anything more than a bland RSE retread (with some DPP and BW elements mixed in). Like, didn't we just remake those games? How much longer can GF continue to beat the Gen 3 nostalgia drum? :rolleyes2:

I don't know, we did get Gen I nostalgia in Gen II, III, IV, V, and VI. Well II is justified, and to some extent to are III and IV. V and VI aren't. And we got some Gen II nostalgia in Gen III's coding (music) plus the PC came from Johto, in IV in DPP, and Gen V to some extent.

 

[BettyNewbie]

I'm really not seeing where the Hoenn "throwbacks" are, here. Sounds like people are really, really, trying too hard to connect the dots in their heads.

I'll admit that this is a carbon copy of Hoenn when the evil team wants to use the Moon to manipulate the tides in some stupid fashion to take over the world and drown it/the Evil team in Sun wants to use the Sun to make everything a desert, but until then, that's kinda an unlikely possibility.

Well, the games are going to be set in a water-logged tropical region that's (likely) isolated from all of the others. Sounds a tad familiar, doesn't it?

And, also...

What happens when you take May and give her Brendan's dark hair and a red version of his odd cap? :P

And, while it hasn't been confirmed, the Sun/Moon theme easily lends itself to an Endless Day vs Endless Night conflict centered around dueling evil teams. What was the only other region that had dueling evil teams? ;)

I don't know, we did get Gen I nostalgia in Gen II, III, IV, V, and VI. Well II is justified, and to some extent to are III and IV. V and VI aren't. And we got some Gen II nostalgia in Gen III's coding (music) plus the PC came from Johto, in IV in DPP, and Gen V to some extent.

GSC don't count because they were RBY sequels, and Gens 3 and 4 don't count because the Kanto/Johto stuff was largely limited to remakes--RSE and DPP had few-to-no throwbacks or references in them.

Besides, you can't entirely compare the Hoenn callbacks in SM to the Kanto callbacks from XY. XY were made almost a decade after FRLG, so Gen 1 wasn't exactly fresh in mind anymore when they came out. SM, on the other hand, are directly following Hoenn remakes, so the region is still very fresh in mind and has already gotten a ton of promotional attention. (Especially, when you consider that ORAS dominated Gen 6 marketing in a way that FRLG and HGSS never did in their respective generations.) After all the Gen 3 nostalgia that Gen 6 had, do we really need another generation of it?

 

[Nah]

Sounds like people are really, really, trying too hard to connect the dots in their heads.

that's basically the entirety of pokemon game pre-release speculation lol

 

[Hikamaru]

Well, the games are going to be set in a water-logged tropical region that's (likely) isolated from all of the others. Sounds a tad familiar, doesn't it?

And, also...

What happens when you take May and give her Brendan's dark hair and a red version of his odd cap? :P

And, while it hasn't been confirmed, the Sun/Moon theme easily lends itself to an Endless Day vs Endless Night conflict centered around dueling evil teams. What was the only other region that had dueling evil teams? ;)

GSC don't count because they were RBY sequels, and Gens 3 and 4 don't count because the Kanto/Johto stuff was largely limited to remakes--RSE and DPP had few-to-no throwbacks or references in them.

Besides, you can't entirely compare the Hoenn callbacks in SM to the Kanto callbacks from XY. XY were made almost a decade after FRLG, so Gen 1 wasn't exactly fresh in mind anymore when they came out. SM, on the other hand, are directly following Hoenn remakes, so the region is still very fresh in mind and has already gotten a ton of promotional attention. (Especially, when you consider that ORAS dominated Gen 6 marketing in a way that FRLG and HGSS never did in their respective generations.) After all the Gen 3 nostalgia that Gen 6 had, do we really need another generation of it?

I can easily understand all the Hoenn callbacks you are pointing out, especially if it seems likely we could get two villainous teams for the first time since the Hoenn games (funnily enough I recall this was a concept that was used for the fanmade game Pokemon Solar Light & Lunar Dark which I liked the Fakemon designs from). I didn't like how 6th Gen's marketing was ruined by a huge focus on 3rd Gen nostalgia, and it's why X/Y were heavily forgotten after OR/AS came out. Alola being a tropical-themed region with a lot of water doesn't help either, as the aforementioned OR/AS kept Hoenn fresh in our minds again lately.

And like you mentioned, the female protagonist definitely looks like a May shoutout, especially with the shorts and shoes reminding me of OR/AS May. Oh, and both the new girl and May wear red headgear hahahaha

 

[BettyNewbie]

I can easily understand all the Hoenn callbacks you are pointing out, especially if it seems likely we could get two villainous teams for the first time since the Hoenn games (funnily enough I recall this was a concept that was used for the fanmade game Pokemon Solar Light & Lunar Dark which I liked the Fakemon designs from). I didn't like how 6th Gen's marketing was ruined by a huge focus on 3rd Gen nostalgia, and it's why X/Y were heavily forgotten after OR/AS came out. Alola being a tropical-themed region with a lot of water doesn't help either, as the aforementioned OR/AS kept Hoenn fresh in our minds again lately.

And like you mentioned, the female protagonist definitely looks like a May shoutout, especially with the shorts and shoes reminding me of OR/AS May. Oh, and both the new girl and May wear red headgear hahahaha

Yeah, essentially, Kalos is getting shoved aside for yet MORE Hoenn nostalgia, albeit this time in the form of a knockoff rather than a remake.

Hasn't GF already milked the Gen 3 nostalgia train enough? Are they also going to pull a Santalune Forest on us and make Alola's first dungeon a clone of Petalburg Woods? Do we also have a "Pokémon Origins: RS" in the making? More Megas for Gen 3 Pokémon so they can (yet again) completely overshadow the new ones?

For the record, I didn't care for all of those Gen 1 references getting stuffed into XY. Kalos had no direct or meaningful connection to Kanto, so they felt completely forced and did nothing but make Kalos seem like a cheap knockoff.

Either you make a genuine, story-based connection with a past region (Johto) or you make something that's fresh and can be sold on its own merits (Hoenn, Sinnoh, Unova). Tossing in a bunch of shallow references and throwbacks to past games doesn't make for good storytelling and worldbuilding, and it was one of many problems that plagued XY.

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

Yeah, essentially, Kalos is getting shoved aside for yet MORE Hoenn nostalgia, albeit this time in the form of a knockoff rather than a remake.

Hasn't GF already milked the Gen 3 nostalgia train enough? Are they also going to pull a Santalune Forest on us and make Alola's first dungeon a clone of Petalburg Woods? Do we also have a "Pokémon Origins: RS" in the making? More Megas for Gen 3 Pokémon so they can (yet again) completely overshadow the new ones?

For the record, I didn't care for all of those Gen 1 references getting stuffed into XY. Kalos had no direct or meaningful connection to Kanto, so they felt completely forced and did nothing but make Kalos seem like a cheap knockoff.

Either you make a genuine, story-based connection with a past region (Johto) or you make something that's fresh and can be sold on its own merits (Hoenn, Sinnoh, Unova). Tossing in a bunch of shallow references and throwbacks to past games doesn't make for good storytelling and worldbuilding, and it was one of many problems that plagued XY.

Your post made me realize that it wasn't stated as to why Sycamore had the Kanto starters. The guy studied in Sinnoh, not Kanto...

I wouldn't mind a Pokemon Origins RS, and DP but first we need a Pokemon Origins GS.

I think that if we are to return to Kalos it'll be through the rumored Moon Dial. If there is a Moon Dial in Alola it could be linked through a portal to Kalos. Perhaps we could explore a few areas of it if not the entire thing. Those areas being the eastern towns of Kalos up to Terminal Cave. Maybe even a trip to Azure bay where we'll see Lugia in the cave we fought a member of the Kanto bird trio.

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

I'm curious though: how exactly are we going to spontaneously teleport over to Kalos? I'm assuming, due to this region's very remote location, we're talking about something that's pretty far out..it doesn't make much sense to me to allow the player to explore a past region for the sake of Terminus Cave. The closest we'll get to Zygarde being in this game is if Gamefreak shoehorns some sort of alternative entrance to Terminus within Alola itself. You might as well anyway instead of re-creating 10% of Kalos for the sake of seeing one legendary when you can just drop an island with that legendary in it. Heck, that's the route Gamefreak decided to go for when ORAS was made. Just random islands with legendaries on them...certainly can't see why they wouldn't do the same thing with Zygarde or other legendaries.

Perhaps a place similar to the Cave of Being in B2W2, the Cave is said to lead to Sinnoh. So perhaps going to the tree and going under it you'll get to a cave said to "lead to Kalos".

 

[BettyNewbie]

I wouldn't mind a Pokemon Origins RS, and DP but first we need a Pokemon Origins GS.

Gen 2 seems to have fallen through the cracks. The nostalgia train's always seemed to be about either Gen 1 or Gen 3+, with Gen 2 playing second fiddle and getting ignored.

I guess a lot of it's because Gen 2 is a sequel generation, so it doesn't really have its own fanbase in the same way as Gens 3 and later. Unlike the other gens, Gen 1 fans and Gen 2 fans are largely one in the same. The people who grew up with GSC are mostly the same people who grew up with RBY, so Gen 1 nostalgia will get those fans' attention just as well as Gen 2 nostalgia.

It sucks, but that's marketing for you.

I think that if we are to return to Kalos it'll be through the rumored Moon Dial. If there is a Moon Dial in Alola it could be linked through a portal to Kalos. Perhaps we could explore a few areas of it if not the entire thing. Those areas being the eastern towns of Kalos up to Terminal Cave. Maybe even a trip to Azure bay where we'll see Lugia in the cave we fought a member of the Kanto bird trio.

I've heard of that idea before. If GF is really planning that, it could help salvage both XY and SM, IMO.

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

Gen 2 seems to have fallen through the cracks. The nostalgia train's always seemed to be about either Gen 1 or Gen 3+, with Gen 2 playing second fiddle and getting ignored.

I guess a lot of it's because Gen 2 is a sequel generation, so it doesn't really have its own fanbase in the same way as Gens 3 and later. Unlike the other gens, Gen 1 fans and Gen 2 fans are largely one in the same. The people who grew up with GSC are mostly the same people who grew up with RBY, so Gen 1 nostalgia will get those fans' attention just as well as Gen 2 nostalgia.

It sucks, but that's marketing for you.



I've heard of that idea before. If GF is really planning that, it could help salvage both XY and SM, IMO.

Some people dislike Johto and Gen II due to thinking that having Kanto in those games took away from the region and generation as a whole, it didn't even get it's own Fossils. Though they forget or aren't aware that Kanto almost didn't make it into GS as GF didn't know how to put it in. Iwata was the one who had suggested the idea and knew how to add it.

 

[mew_nani]

I'll be honest; I don't get the similarities between Alola and Hoenn. They're both tropical and they both have volcanoes but besides that the two aren't all that alike; Hoenn is mainly a single, rather temperate island region mainly comprised of forest and water routes, and Alola is comprised of four totally different islands, each with their own separate biomes and landmarks. If anything Alola seems more like the Sevii Isles, complete with docks on each island probably signifying the use of boats to get around.

With that said though, making a third version or sequel to Kalos just wouldn't have worked to fix the many problems the region had. The region itself had a lot of issues; routes were too short and linear, Pokemon placement was wack, the towns weren't memorable enough, there was hardly anywhere to explore, and the landmarks that were there didn't get near the amount of attention they should have gotten. This isn't even going into the issues present in the story, the characters, or the progression of the game. They would have had to pour a lot of time and effort into making the region what it should have been in the first place, and they still would have had to deal with the lack of thought put into the story. The only real way to improve the region would have been to have prequels, and I don't think that's something Game Freak was comfortable doing. But eh, if Sun and Moon turn out good I'll be happy.

 

[WingsofBliss]

That big tree on one of the islands reminds me of that big tree that AZ planted in Sootopolis. Except that it's obviously a lot bigger, because you couldn't see AZ's Sootopolis tree in ORAS's Hoenn concept art. In this concept art for Alola, you can clearly see the tree. Laverre City also had its Gym in a massive tree, come to think of it...

CONSPIRACY OF THE TREES.

 

[Rivvon]

I'm curious though: how exactly are we going to spontaneously teleport over to Kalos?

Airplanes are pretty cool. I think Skyla would back me up on this.

I'm assuming, due to this region's very remote location, we're talking about something that's pretty far out.

Just how remote was Alola confirmed to be?

it doesn't make much sense to me to allow the player to explore a past region for the sake of Terminus Cave.

But what if the player is originally from Kalos and their dad's uncle who works for Nintendo is back there? You could visit him for plot reasons!

That big tree on one of the islands reminds me of that big tree that AZ planted in Sootopolis. Except that it's obviously a lot bigger, because you couldn't see AZ's Sootopolis tree in ORAS's Hoenn concept art. In this concept art for Alola, you can clearly see the tree. Laverre City also had its Gym in a massive tree, come to think of it...

CONSPIRACY OF THE TREES.

Maybe the big tree next to the Illuminati altar is the Yggdrasil tree (since it's got that light shining down on it and everything). Maybe the giant sprout on that very very north-eastern island is its bud! And the XY legends have ties to Yggdrasil, so maybe...

Unless that tree is just the dream tree and Dream World is confirmed to make a comeback. Who knows.

 

[Rivvon]

And why? :<

Why are they cool? Because they take you where you want to go faster than even boats!

Why should we go back to Kalos? Because only Kalosians are fashionable enough to change their clothes, and running around on a hot, tropical island makes you sweaty. I need to change!

That's why I was making a speculatory assumption more than anything else, but...do you really honestly see any realistic connection between this region and Kalos at all, especially given we've never really visited past regions before except in G/S/C?

Honestly, I'm a hard cynic each and every generation for visiting past regions because I know it'll most likely never happen.

Hawaii and Paris are both popular tourist destinations. You want to go from being a local to being a tourist--that's the connection.

Either that or the player is from Kalos and you want to visit your dad's uncle's dog who works for the Looker Bureau.

 

[BettyNewbie]

Some people dislike Johto and Gen II due to thinking that having Kanto in those games took away from the region and generation as a whole, it didn't even get it's own Fossils. Though they forget or aren't aware that Kanto almost didn't make it into GS as GF didn't know how to put it in. Iwata was the one who had suggested the idea and knew how to add it.

Yeah, GSC Kanto was hampered a bit by the technology of the time (many areas, like Viridian Forest and Cinnabar Island, had to be removed due to lack of space), but HGSS did fix many of those issues.

However, Gen 2 will always be a sequel, first and foremost, so the gen will never really stand on its own like Gens 3 or 4, for better or worse. While the games still added new Pokémon and a new region, they were directly continuing from where the previous games left off and were more an expansion of RBY than a truly new and separate generation. GSC are far more comparable to B2W2 than RSE or DPP, and just as B2W2 don't have much appeal if you're not a fan of BW, GSC don't have much appeal if you're not a fan of RBY.

And, this has sadly meant that Gen 2 gets mostly ignored and overshadowed by Gens 1 and 3 in marketing. :( As I said, Gen 2 nostalgia pretty much appeals to the exact same audience as Gen 1 nostalgia, while Gen 3 nostalgia appeals to a different, younger audience, so from a marketing perspective, it makes sense to just ignore Gen 2 and only focus on Gens 1 and 3.

With that said though, making a third version or sequel to Kalos just wouldn't have worked to fix the many problems the region had. The region itself had a lot of issues; routes were too short and linear, Pokemon placement was wack, the towns weren't memorable enough, there was hardly anywhere to explore, and the landmarks that were there didn't get near the amount of attention they should have gotten. This isn't even going into the issues present in the story, the characters, or the progression of the game. They would have had to pour a lot of time and effort into making the region what it should have been in the first place, and they still would have had to deal with the lack of thought put into the story. The only real way to improve the region would have been to have prequels, and I don't think that's something Game Freak was comfortable doing. But eh, if Sun and Moon turn out good I'll be happy.

What worries me the most about the handling of XY is the dangerous precedent it sets for the series. If shallow, unfinished stories like Kalos are the new norm, then what's stopping Alola from being more of the same? What do you want to bet that we'll be having this exact same discussion about Sun/Moon three years from now?

I wonder if GF got a ton of complaints about BW having a deeper, more involved story? I just can't see how the quality of storytelling would decline so dramatically from Gen 5 to Gen 6. It's sad. :(

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

Yeah, GSC Kanto was hampered a bit by the technology of the time (many areas, like Viridian Forest and Cinnabar Island, had to be removed due to lack of space), but HGSS did fix many of those issues.

However, Gen 2 will always be a sequel, first and foremost, so the gen will never really stand on its own like Gens 3 or 4, for better or worse. While the games still added new Pokémon and a new region, they were directly continuing from where the previous games left off and were more an expansion of RBY than a truly new and separate generation. GSC are far more comparable to B2W2 than RSE or DPP, and just as B2W2 don't have much appeal if you're not a fan of BW, GSC don't have much appeal if you're not a fan of RBY.

And, this has sadly meant that Gen 2 gets mostly ignored and overshadowed by Gens 1 and 3 in marketing. :( As I said, Gen 2 nostalgia pretty much appeals to the exact same audience as Gen 1 nostalgia, while Gen 3 nostalgia appeals to a different, younger audience, so from a marketing perspective, it makes sense to just ignore Gen 2 and only focus on Gens 1 and 3.



What worries me the most about the handling of XY is the dangerous precedent it sets for the series. If shallow, unfinished stories like Kalos are the new norm, then what's stopping Alola from being more of the same? What do you want to bet that we'll be having this exact same discussion about Sun/Moon three years from now?

I wonder if GF got a ton of complaints about BW having a deeper, more involved story? I just can't see how the quality of storytelling would decline so dramatically from Gen 5 to Gen 6. It's sad. :(

Masuda seemed very eager about what was to come after OrAs. He promised some surprises and ideas they've been thinking up for some time, or something along those lines. Hopefully the story telling goes up as dramatically from Gen VI -> VII as it fell in Gen V->VI.