Windows 10!

[Tsutarja]

The fact that someone is earning money through my browsing habits is what makes me turn off some of the features Microsoft offers. No bueno.

(inb4 the whole "Google does the same thing!!!11!!" debate, because I know they do)

 

[Drayton]

I'm surprised I didn't lose any programs even I'm going back to 7. Only thing is lost is Mircosoft office since I installed during Windows 10 the rest of the programs are untouched.

 

[Legendary Silke]

I get that it turns off for metred connections, however that doesn't stop you from having limited bandwidth, unless you have something so insane that you don't notice (e.g. Google Fibre).

I definitely don't have double standards about privacy, and I don't think anyone who complains about what Microsoft is doing will not complain equally as much about Google or Apple or any other big name who masquerades spyware as some irresistible feature or personal assistant. Personally, I don't think anyone should be allowed to do such things, and I make a point of staying away from such software.

However, it's not strange to be suspicious. Microsoft definitely is changing their business model. They haven't stopped caring about money; in the end they're still a big company and only exist to make a profit. Maybe they're changing to a more Google-like self-your-information-to-advertisers model. Whatever the case is, they're clearly not planning to make all their money by selling copies of an OS with lots of "user-friendly" features, and for that reason alone we should be wary.

Windows Update is background priority when it comes to bandwidth. You probably shouldn't have to worry too much about it hogging up the bandwidth.

Calling it "spyware" is quite...OK, I don't know how to put it, but are we stretching the definition by a lot? You can turn off these features if you want to. There's nothing forcing you to leave it on, other than the fact that these features need it. And boy, these features need that information for a very good reason. What good is a virtual assistant that doesn't know about you, for example? You wouldn't want to have a real assistant to be in the dark, either, for the most part.

Microsoft hasn't changed their business model at all. It just so happens that the upgrade offer is free for Windows 7 and 8.1 users; the Windows 10 OS itself is still sold separately as a retail products, and OEMs whose machines don't meet the criteria will still need to pay for the licence itself.

Either way, privacy this, privacy that. This would be the article to know about privacy in Windows 10, anyway, and I'd rather have explanations for the important bits.. I think I'll excuse myself now.

The fact that someone is earning money through my browsing habits is what makes me turn off some of the features Microsoft offers. No bueno.

(inb4 the whole "Google does the same thing!!!11!!" debate, because I know they do)

They probably don't. No, really.

I'm surprised I didn't lose any programs even I'm going back to 7. Only thing is lost is Mircosoft office since I installed during Windows 10 the rest of the programs are untouched.

Windows does a pretty good job at preserving apps when it comes to upgrading.

 

[Touched]

Windows Update is background priority when it comes to bandwidth. You probably shouldn't have to worry too much about it hogging up the bandwidth.

Calling it "spyware" is quite...OK, I don't know how to put it, but are we stretching the definition by a lot?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spyware
Not really. Any software that gathers information without your knowledge is technically spyware.

You can turn off these features if you want to. There's nothing forcing you to leave it on, other than the fact that these features need it. And boy, these features need that information for a very good reason. What good is a virtual assistant that doesn't know about you, for example? You wouldn't want to have a real assistant to be in the dark, either, for the most part.

I would prefer an open source assistant (if I wanted one at all), so I could know exactly what it was doing. It's not the use of data I have a problem with, it's the not being able to know how exactly that data is being used.

Microsoft hasn't changed their business model at all. It just so happens that the upgrade offer is free for Windows 7 and 8.1 users; the Windows 10 OS itself is still sold separately as a retail products, and OEMs whose machines don't meet the criteria will still need to pay for the licence itself.

They are changing their model. A few years ago, a free upgrade would've been unthinkable. They're also open sourcing projects which have been kept closed for a long time (.NET core). They're testing the waters at the very least.

Either way, privacy this, privacy that. This would be the article to know about privacy in Windows 10, anyway, and I'd rather have explanations for the important bits..

Except that they're not entirely transparent (from that article). They just refuse to comment on whether can snoop on Skype conversations, for example. They can definitely read your text chats though, but I'm sure that's buried in the EULA.

 

[Legendary Silke]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spyware
Not really. Any software that gathers information without your knowledge is technically spyware.



I would prefer an open source assistant (if I wanted one at all), so I could know exactly what it was doing. It's not the use of data I have a problem with, it's the not being able to know how exactly that data is being used.



They are changing their model. A few years ago, a free upgrade would've been unthinkable. They're also open sourcing projects which have been kept closed for a long time (.NET core). They're testing the waters at the very least.



Except that they're not entirely transparent (from that article). They just refuse to comment on whether can snoop on Skype conversations, for example. They can definitely read your text chats though, but I'm sure that's buried in the EULA.

In this context, Windows 10 isn't spyware by that definition because it's plainly laid out during setup and it can be turned off at any time later on without the app actually lying about it, at least for the most part. Have you seen actual spyware that nice?

Open source sometimes can still end up having slip ups every now and then. It does help that you can have more people looking at it, but it's not a guarantee by itself. That, and isn't the way the data being used a known quantity, anyway?

Consider that Microsoft makes a lot from software licensing to OEMs anyway - upgrades don't really give them much revenue anyway. So long as PC sales are steady enough, things should be business as usual. One might argue that their business methods have adapted, but not changed completely.

Hmm, I'm pretty sure nobody noticed anything about that if that is still true today. Usually, all it takes is one publicized incident and they'd be wary to try that again.

On another topic, it seems that with each reinstallation of Windows 10, it gets better. I don't think I have seen any driver hiccups this time around after installing the missing ones. Now to figure out why is the lock screen background image not syncing to one of the laptops...

EDIT:

There seems to be an interesting thing going on with telemetry and Windows 10 right now. https://arstechnica.com/information...ndows-10-just-cant-stop-talking-to-microsoft/

Bug or intentional? Who knows, but for the most part it doesn't seem to involve actual identifiable information. Still bad form since it's still doing something, and that's going to make some privacy nuts never shut up.

 

[Mewtwolover]

There seems to be an interesting thing going on with telemetry and Windows 10 right now. https://arstechnica.com/information...ndows-10-just-cant-stop-talking-to-microsoft/

Bug or intentional? Who knows, but for the most part it doesn't seem to involve actual identifiable information. Still bad form since it's still doing something, and that's going to make some privacy nuts never shut up.

That's likely intentional, Windows 10 is spyware OS and it has already become clear that Microsoft doesn't want you to disable the spyware features easily.

 

[Legendary Silke]

That's likely intentional, Windows 10 is spyware OS and it has already become clear that Microsoft doesn't want you to disable the spyware features easily.

How did you arrive to that at a glance? We must have been reading completely different articles. As always, when interpreting things, it does help to not always assume the worst and consider that a bunch of things are already crystal clear.

Jumping to conclusions doesn't help to bolster your point. As far as things that can verified are, there's no personally identifiable information, and part of them consist of downloads, even - I don't see any concern in them spying in the first place, considering that even having all the features turned on still wouldn't result in things that you never wanted to be uploaded uploading. (That, and the bandwidth used is too dang small for it to be relevant, anyway.)

Sometimes one really should make it clear that just because something is uploading telemetry data and downloading generic content (perhaps erroneously) doesn't mean it's a giant privacy invasion. A proper privacy invasion needs both a lack of permission and it actually grabbing things that you deem out-of-limits, and we're not seeing any of it.

Even if you don't trust Microsoft's PR speak, I suspect they want to keep it clean, since they also want Windows 10 to succeed. Expect it to be patched out, bug or not - not that it matters.

 

[Guest123_x1]

The more I'm finding out about Windows 10's mandatory invasions of privacy that you can't turn off, the more I'm wanting to revert to Windows 7. Microsoft should either update Windows 10 to disable these invasive bits of code, or face prosecution for egregious invasion of privacy and for illegally enforcing their monopoly with their SecureBoot requirements. (which I know won't happen thanks to our wonderful President.)
Indeed, I'm starting to encounter more and more issues, most of which Windows 7 never had. Then again, there hasn't been a really good version of Windows since Windows 2000 (which I wish I could install on my laptop).

 

[linkandzelda]

I don't usually post in threads like this, but I wanted to quote a line from the end user license agreement, the long document that you agree to abide by when installing Windows 10.

"We will access, disclose and preserve personal data, included your content (such as the content of your emails, other private communications or files in private folders), when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary to."

This states they will access your files in good faith... they also state in another part regarding copyright infringement of microsoft products AKA activators, that they will refer to the authorities rather than deal with the issue themselves. I don't want to sound like a scaredy cat, but since this OS is equipped to spy on your files and most likely able to find out if you had illegally activated (potentially through checksum comparisons of key system files), It's worth pointing out how bad this "good faith" is.

It also makes clear sense why the OS is offered as a free upgrade:

- They want to entice every possible user in the world to upgrade to it
- They want to collect info and statistics for the ultimate spy fest and advertisement campaign
- They will sell the info to 3rd parties and make millions off our data and usage

My thinking behind this is the following: They may provide settings that can be disabled, they might provide services that can be disabled, and there might be registry tweaks to perform along with other measures to cut down on the invasive privacy approach. However, since this is in the agreement, it makes it seem harder to disable or in fact not possible to disable. Since the OS is closed source, we will never know if the whole system is hooked with backdoors and security holes leading right back to MS as they claim, even after going through the extensive process of disabling those known features. And since we will never know, I doubt I will ever use Windows 10 or future versions of Windows while they take this approach.

How did you arrive to that at a glance? We must have been reading completely different articles. As always, when interpreting things, it does help to not always assume the worst and consider that a bunch of things are already crystal clear.

Totally crystal clear

 

[Legendary Silke]

The more I'm finding out about Windows 10's mandatory invasions of privacy that you can't turn off, the more I'm wanting to revert to Windows 7. Microsoft should either update Windows 10 to disable these invasive bits of code, or face prosecution for egregious invasion of privacy and for illegally enforcing their monopoly with their SecureBoot requirements. (which I know won't happen thanks to our wonderful President.)
Indeed, I'm starting to encounter more and more issues, most of which Windows 7 never had. Then again, there hasn't been a really good version of Windows since Windows 2000 (which I wish I could install on my laptop).

These aren't even invasions of privacy, unless you count machine IDs and downloads as invasions of privacy. And I'm very willing to bet that Microsoft will patch this out if only to shut up certain hard-line privacy advocates that won't take anything but total Internet silence. :)

Also, Secure Boot is a standardized thing. It can be found in more than Windows devices. You can even install OSes that support Secure Boot and isn't Windows. And, finally, whether Secure Boot is forced to be enabled or not for x86 machines is up to the OEMs on Windows 10 machines. If you don't want to lose control over that bit, vote with your wallet and don't buy the offending OEM's machines.

I don't usually post in threads like this, but I wanted to quote a line from the end user license agreement, the long document that you agree to abide by when installing Windows 10.

"We will access, disclose and preserve personal data, included your content (such as the content of your emails, other private communications or files in private folders), when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary to."

This states they will access your files in good faith... they also state in another part regarding copyright infringement of microsoft products AKA activators, that they will refer to the authorities rather than deal with the issue themselves. I don't want to sound like a scaredy cat, but since this OS is equipped to spy on your files and most likely able to find out if you had illegally activated (potentially through checksum comparisons of key system files), It's worth pointing out how bad this "good faith" is.

It also makes clear sense why the OS is offered as a free upgrade:

- They want to entice every possible user in the world to upgrade to it
- They want to collect info and statistics for the ultimate spy fest and advertisement campaign
- They will sell the info to 3rd parties and make millions off our data and usage

My thinking behind this is the following: They may provide settings that can be disabled, they might provide services that can be disabled, and there might be registry tweaks to perform along with other measures to cut down on the invasive privacy approach. However, since this is in the agreement, it makes it seem harder to disable or in fact not possible to disable. Since the OS is closed source, we will never know if the whole system is hooked with backdoors and security holes leading right back to MS as they claim, even after going through the extensive process of disabling those known features. And since we will never know, I doubt I will ever use Windows 10 or future versions of Windows while they take this approach.



Totally crystal clear

Law enforcement, anyone? :) Yeah, yeah, I know... but I believe that's exactly what that part of the licence agreement refers to. It's hard to do business if you're not complying with the law, and if you want to complain about it, you're complaining to the wrong person if you're complaining to Microsoft.

The thing is, they don't even have to spy on your files to verify activation state - it's a separate thing, that has been done since the Windows XP days. It involves a hash of the machine in question and the product key. No personal information, unless you really think that the machine itself is personal information.

Terrible example. One should actually read the lines instead of between them someday, and that image actually makes zero sense when you think about what they actually do. A lot of the options do exactly what they say, and these data collection is required for the features to work as expected. Or they wouldn't be there, you know? (I cringe a bit every time someone relinks that image, because it's extremely biased against Microsoft without adequate justification.)

There's too much misinformation about Windows 10 these days... and it's this misinformation that gets blindly parroted out. I'll just leave this here and I'd love for people to stay sane (and not just...yeah.)

 

[Touched]

Terrible example. One should actually read the lines instead of between them someday, and that image actually makes zero sense when you think about what they actually do. A lot of the options do exactly what they say, and these data collection is required for the features to work as expected. Or they wouldn't be there, you know? (I cringe a bit every time someone relinks that image, because it's extremely biased against Microsoft without adequate justification.)

Oh I'm sorry. I didn't realise you worked for Microsoft and knew exactly what they were doing because you've seen the source code.
Oh wait, you don't. So you can't know. We're not biased against Microsoft; we just have standards that their proprietary software does not even come close to meeting. "Reading between the lines" shows exactly what they're capable of. The irrefutable fact is that they have backdoors in Windows that you can't disable. You just have to trust that they're using it like they say they are.
Sure you can disable the keylogger, and all the other privacy invasions, but what about the stuff that you can't?

Feel free free to be part of the botnet all you want, but don't tell other users it's safe and private - it's not and no amount of deflection is going to change that.

Also why do I have to change my SSID to end with "_optout". How am I supposed to have an SSID that ends in both "_nomap" and "_optout".

 

[Alexander Nicholi]

Yeah, I've never really been the kind of guy to support privacy invasion, or consumer ignorance either.

Twiggy, I hope you realize that by saying such-and-such anti-privacy thing "goes back to [Windows OS before 10]" you're creating a snowball effect that worsens your argument. Just letting you know.

Totally crystal clear

Lovely Ben Franklin quote right there. Though, I always remembered it as, "Those who sacrifice guaranteed liberty for promised security deserve neither." I'm sure Microsoft is happy to tell us how good a job it's doing with all of our information :P

 

[Legendary Silke]

Oh I'm sorry. I didn't realise you worked for Microsoft and knew exactly what they were doing because you've seen the source code.
Oh wait, you don't. So you can't know. We're not biased against Microsoft; we just have standards that their proprietary software does not even come close to meeting. "Reading between the lines" shows exactly what they're capable of. The irrefutable fact is that they have backdoors in Windows that you can't disable. You just have to trust that they're using it like they say they are.
Sure you can disable the keylogger, and all the other privacy invasions, but what about the stuff that you can't?

Feel free free to be part of the botnet all you want, but don't tell other users it's safe and private - it's not and no amount of deflection is going to change that.

Also why do I have to change my SSID to end with "_optout". How am I supposed to have an SSID that ends in both "_nomap" and "_optout".

Yeah, I've never really been the kind of guy to support privacy invasion, or consumer ignorance either.

Twiggy, I hope you realize that by saying such-and-such anti-privacy thing "goes back to [Windows OS before 10]" you're creating a snowball effect that worsens your argument. Just letting you know.

Lovely Ben Franklin quote right there. Though, I always remembered it as, "Those who sacrifice guaranteed liberty for promised security deserve neither." I'm sure Microsoft is happy to tell us how good a job it's doing with all of our information :P

Fine. I think I'm not a good debater anyway.

Though, if this merits only a small section in short takes in one of Paul Thurrott's articles...

I'm still in the firm belief that it's just the Internet being the Internet that's overanalysing things.

Watch them patch it out if it's of any indication (enough complaining tends to do that, good or bad). And if we shouldn't trust Microsoft, maybe we shouldn't trust anyone else, too. Double standards, double standards. And do we even have a proof that Windows 10 is a genuine privacy intrusion after it's properly set up, anyway? (No, telemetry isn't.)

Feel free to not believe any word I've said and think I work in Microsoft. I'm done talking about Windows 10 and privacy, other than how to configure it. I'd appreciate it if we dropped it right here, right now. (Perhaps spinning this off in another thread is better.)

On another topic...

Two weeks into Windows 10, I think I'm picking up the pace I used to have. 8.1 was OK, but I think I vastly prefer 10 by a long shot.

 

[Drayton]

hmm is it possible to run 10 on VirtualBox I just want to enjoy those apps I missed without replacing my OS?

 

[Drayton]

I want to use it, but the key already occupied on my computer before the rollback.

 

[Legendary Silke]

I want to use it, but the key already occupied on my computer before the rollback.

Ah, then you really shouldn't try to transfer it. I don't think you're supposed to use this kind of key in VMs, anyway.

I wonder when we'll see retail Windows 10 media? Right now it seems like everyone just tells people to get a copy of Windows 7 or 8.1 and upgrade from there instead. It's a bit of an extra step.

 

[Drayton]

So i should just use 7 on VM and get the free upgrade. Seems legit

 

[obZen]

I'm waiting to get my msdnaa account renewed at school, then I'll try it in Virtualbox.
I've yet to try it past an older preview, but I'm assuming that Microsoft still hasn't solved its hidpi issues in Windows 10? Can anyone confirm?

 

[Alexander Nicholi]

Sorry for dragging an old topic through the mud but...

If that's the case, and you think that companies invading your privacy is that big of a concern, you might as well also stop using your Android and iOS devices, as well as stop using e-mail, Facebook, or anything else that's online. Heck, you might as well completely abandon your entire online life as you know it and go back to the 80s when this wasn't as commonplace (That even includes tossing your fancy smartphones away and getting a more basic flip phone or Nokia if any carriers still allow them). Even move off the grid so that bills and payments cannot be traced back to you. Go cash-only, do under-the-table jobs. That way you don't have to file a tax report every April. Many other companies have been doing it for years (And the sad part is that a lot of people that talk about this stuff use sites like Facebook, which actually probably hand out more information than MS would!!!). The fact that MS is doing it (Some of it is for legit reasons as stated in the article Twiggy linked - for actually enhancing the user experience) doesn't mean that it's bad, it's that they're last to the punch with something that everyone else is already doing. Besides, why are you so concerned over privacy? You should only be super-concerned if you have something to hide. Otherwise, the NSA and all those government programs couldn't give two shits about a random citizen that browses Facebook and plays Farmville all day.

You can't say that, unless of course you work for the NSA and feel like joining Snowden with their league of whistleblowers who spoil their secrets. Also, Snowden's documents reveal a lot about how much they in fact do care about your random average citizen, but of course you've never read them so you're just talking nonsense about that.

I laughed a little at your proposition. You can't justify taking it lying down by saying we have to take it to begin with. "Don't give in without a fight." I highly suspect that if people actually cared about their privacy this wouldn't be happening.

In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with Windows 10. A lot of the stuff I don't like I've disabled. I do value my privacy with intimate details, but I have nothing to hide. The people that are warning users of these "privacy invasions" are the kind of people that wear tinfoil hats all the time, they think that they're constantly being spied on and stuff like that.

You can't "have nothing to hide" without knowing what they're looking for, lol. Basic logic says that much. The fact of the matter is you don't even know who these "third parties" are so you have no safety with your information whatsoever.

tl;dr: There's no 100% safe OS that won't track you or capture anything you say.

Bullshit. Try installing Linux and reading about the definition of "free software." If you're wondering, it's simply software that you control, not vice versa.

There may be extensions that can block cookies, but anything that is put on the internet can somehow be traced back to you. You are never safe and never will be. If you truly want to have everything private, you would be best off moving off the grid and living off the land or doing cash-only jobs under a false name.

[/2¢]

Tor much? How on Earth do you think Edward Snowden succeeded in exposing the mass spying network the National Security Agency set up if this absurd proposition that "you can never be safe" was true?

Let's liken this to a corrupt policeman. You're suggesting we give ourselves up to the whim of this corrupt policeman simply because we can't run away from him short of becoming mountain men. What I'm suggesting is that we come together to confront the corrupt policeman and hold him to higher justice, and use allies (Linux, Tor, using your head) to protect ourselves as much as we can (no, we cannot 100% protect ourselves) until we're able to do so, so we get both proper privacy protection and a Windows operating system. It's obviously the more logical solution, no?

inb4 someone tries to refute and back out lol

 

[Cerberus87]

You can't say that, unless of course you work for the NSA and feel like joining Snowden with their league of whistleblowers who spoil their secrets. Also, Snowden's documents reveal a lot about how much they in fact do care about your random average citizen, but of course you've never read them so you're just talking nonsense about that.

I laughed a little at your proposition. You can't justify taking it lying down by saying we have to take it to begin with. "Don't give in without a fight." I highly suspect that if people actually cared about their privacy this wouldn't be happening.

Citing Snowden is a moot point because, as someone who worked for the NSA, he knew very well how to avoid being tracked by them, something that the average user may not have access to.

And, quite frankly, every high-selling commercial OS has privacy issues. Google is even worse than Microsoft in this regard. Team Fail definitely has a good point. I'd be willing to say that most privacy advocators are probably the people with the most skeletons in the closet, since there's no real reason to be such a staunch privacy supporter if you have nothing to hide. If you do have something to hide, however, it can be eventually found out, and the legal system has means to access your data. Doing bank transactions is a liability, surfing the web is a liability. Cops are everywhere as snitches.

Do you think that, if I started posting Nazi or terrorism supporting bullshit for example, the police wouldn't even try to find out who I am, where I live, and so on? They can investigate me if they want, and they have the means to find out. If I'm openly commiting a crime, no amount of "privacy" excuses will save me. Encryption, VPNs, Tor, masked emails only delay the process. You WILL leave a footprint somewhere, because hey, we're human and make mistakes, and, when they find it, your whole privacy setup is compromised.

Remaining inconspicuous also involves a good degree of self-control and avoiding getting into sensitive situations. If you don't do that, no "privacy" will save you from the consequences.