XY Ash vs Paul

[pkmin3033]

And you keep downplaying XY Ash's feats to make DP Ash look good.

Actually, I'm quite willing to acknowledge XY Ash's feats - my point, if you could be bothered to actually read my posts properly just once - is that DP Ash was up against significantly stronger opponents, and that should be taken into account when measuring their strength, because otherwise its a grossly inaccurate representation of their actual strength. Tobias had LEGENDARIES. Alain had just a Mega Charizard X. Pretty big difference in strength there.

But going back to the actual topic at hand, if you want to compare XY Ash with Paul, you need to take into account Paul's level of strength at the time he faced Ash in DP and, most importantly, what he took away from that final battle. He would have grown in much the same way Gary grew after losing back in Johto, and Gary's Electivire demolished Pikachu fresh after it beat a Regice. You think Paul wouldn't have Mega Evolution too, or that he wouldn't have other stronger, better Pokemon? You can't just take him straight out of DP as he was and compare him to XY Ash, who is in a completely different place...not necessarily a better one, but that's another topic entirely.

Paul lost solely because he gave up Chimchar, and the Infernape/Electivire battle was very close. He lost by a narrow margin to prove a point. No such restraints if he comes up against XY Ash, and prior to that last battle Paul had always come out on top. He probably would again.

 

[SH60]

Actually, I'm quite willing to acknowledge XY Ash's feats - my point, if you could be bothered to actually read my posts properly just once - is that DP Ash was up against significantly stronger opponents, and that should be taken into account when measuring their strength, because otherwise its a grossly inaccurate representation of their actual strength. Tobias had LEGENDARIES. Alain had just a Mega Charizard X. Pretty big difference in strength there.

But going back to the actual topic at hand, if you want to compare XY Ash with Paul, you need to take into account Paul's level of strength at the time he faced Ash in DP and, most importantly, what he took away from that final battle. He would have grown in much the same way Gary grew after losing back in Johto, and Gary's Electivire demolished Pikachu fresh after it beat a Regice. You think Paul wouldn't have Mega Evolution too, or that he wouldn't have other stronger, better Pokemon? You can't just take him straight out of DP as he was and compare him to XY Ash, who is in a completely different place...not necessarily a better one, but that's another topic entirely.

Paul lost solely because he gave up Chimchar, and the Infernape/Electivire battle was very close. He lost by a narrow margin to prove a point. No such restraints if he comes up against XY Ash, and prior to that last battle Paul had always come out on top. He probably would again.

Thats the Thread its DP Paul vs XY Ash. And we are not giving Paul a mega because he didn't have one in DP we are using there league teams. And if DP Paul lost to DP Ash in the league what makes you think that XY Ash can't do the same thing?

 

[CidHazard]

I feel that this debate is pointless since we've already seen Paul lose to Ash... we've seen it a bunch of times now.

Since all the Ash's whether from the original to SM- fight the same way... If he can't overpower the opponent he'll find a weakness/opening, exploit it (Usually by doing something insane), counter attack, win. And if all else fails PIKACHU THUNDERBOLT FTW!!!

 

[pkmin3033]

Thats the Thread its DP Paul vs XY Ash. And we are not giving Paul a mega because he didn't have one in DP we are using there league teams. And if DP Paul lost to DP Ash in the league what makes you think that XY Ash can't do the same thing?

But that is just...an utterly ridiculous, unrealistic comparison. You can't assume that DP Paul would use the same team he used against DP Ash if he went up against XY Ash. Gary didn't have a freakin' Electivire in Johto, did he? People change. If you don't think Paul would take advantage of Mega Evolution, you clearly have no idea what kind of character he is - even if he's changed in the aftermath of the Sinnoh League, he's still going to use everything at his disposal, and Mega Evolution is a useful tool. He would almost certainly have at least one Mega if he appeared in Kalos.

I doubt XY Ash could beat Paul because Paul only lost to DP Ash because he used Infernape. Just because he beat Paul ONCE does not mean he could beat him every time - again, using Gary as an example, Ash beat him long before Gary thrashed him with Electivire. It is not just win once, win every time with Ash, when it comes to his better rivals. Paul is one of the best rivals Ash has had as someone who is legitimately better than he is and yet his opposite in every way. And again, there's progression. XY Ash has gone through two resets between then and the Sinnoh League. Paul will not have done that. He'll keep all his experience, all his Pokemon, and everything he's learned from that last match they had. He'd wipe the floor with Ash if they met again, illogical Greninja or otherwise.

 

[SH60]

But that is just...an utterly ridiculous, unrealistic comparison. You can't assume that DP Paul would use the same team he used against DP Ash if he went up against XY Ash. Gary didn't have a freakin' Electivire in Johto, did he? People change. If you don't think Paul would take advantage of Mega Evolution, you clearly have no idea what kind of character he is - even if he's changed in the aftermath of the Sinnoh League, he's still going to use everything at his disposal, and Mega Evolution is a useful tool. He would almost certainly have at least one Mega if he appeared in Kalos.

I doubt XY Ash could beat Paul because Paul only lost to DP Ash because he used Infernape. Just because he beat Paul ONCE does not mean he could beat him every time - again, using Gary as an example, Ash beat him long before Gary thrashed him with Electivire. It is not just win once, win every time with Ash, when it comes to his better rivals. Paul is one of the best rivals Ash has had as someone who is legitimately better than he is and yet his opposite in every way. And again, there's progression. XY Ash has gone through two resets between then and the Sinnoh League. Paul will not have done that. He'll keep all his experience, all his Pokemon, and everything he's learned from that last match they had. He'd wipe the floor with Ash if they met again, illogical Greninja or otherwise.

We are using there league teams thats it. And we never saw Paul after DP so we don't know if he has mega or not.

 

[pkmin3033]

We are using there league teams thats it. And we never saw Paul after DP so we don't know if he has mega or not.

Then YOUR entire argument - because I do not do what you tell me, thank you - is flawed and illogical, and utterly pointless. DP Paul would never use the team he used in the Sinnoh league against XY Ash if he fought him, and that is all there is to it. And, as the only reason he lost was because of Infernape, if Ash is not using Infernape, you cannot say with any certainty that Paul would lose. In fact, it seems very unlikely that he would, given XY Ash's ridiculously unbalanced team and over-dependence on Greninja to get him out of trouble.

 

[SH60]

Then YOUR entire argument - because I do not do what you tell me, thank you - is flawed and illogical, and utterly pointless. DP Paul would never use the team he used in the Sinnoh league against XY Ash if he fought him, and that is all there is to it. And, as the only reason he lost was because of Infernape, if Ash is not using Infernape, you cannot say with any certainty that Paul would lose. In fact, it seems very unlikely that he would, given XY Ash's ridiculously unbalanced team and over-dependence on Greninja to get him out of trouble.

DP Ash's team is unbalanced as well if his only pokemon that can beat Paul is Infernape. I'm saying League teams only thats it.

 

[pkmin3033]

DP Ash's team is unbalanced as well if his only pokemon that can beat Paul is Infernape. I'm saying League teams only thats it.

For crying out loud, Infernape's entire character arc was leading up to beating Paul's Electivire. It wasn't just about Ash, it was about Infernape - perhaps even more so - as well. Of course the rest of his team contributed, but it was Infernape that gave him the win in the end, where it counted the most. Please don't deliberately miss the point.

I'm calling BS on your entire premise - because it is to assume that - but even with that premise XY Ash would get stomped by Paul, because his team is so ridiculously stacked in his favour. In a battle between XY Ash and Paul, Ash would have to rely VERY heavily on Talonflame, and given that Paul's Gastrodon rather effectively took out Staraptor - and this was with Water Pulse, which unlike Staraptor, Talonflame would be especially weak against - it wouldn't get him very far. Without Talonflame he has no way to get rid of Toxic Spikes.

Ash-Greninja, lacking the personal grudge Infernape had against Electivire, would get flattened if that battle replayed itself, and no doubt at the end of the battle it would come down to those two. Aggron resists half his team's attacks. Torterra has more battle experience than any of XY Ash's Pokemon asides from Pikachu and that would count for a lot. Gastrodon could take down four out of six of his Pokemon by itself since it has Ice Beam. Froslass could take down Noivern and Goodra with relative ease if Gastrodon didn't get the job done. Drapion is one of his strongest Pokemon and even if he only used it to lay down Toxic Spikes, that's a major advantage. Ninjask is...just kinda there, I suppose, but a Giga Drain on that Greninja - and it's a safe bet to assume it'd be faster after a while thanks to Speed Boost - would go a long way towards taking it down.

So yes. If for some obscure reason Paul used the exact same team, against XY Ash, he would win with relative ease. Paul is actually intelligent enough to not rely solely upon attack moves, switch his Pokemon where necessary, take strategies from his opponent where necessary - XY Ash wouldn't use counter-shield, either - and use types to his advantage, even where that doesn't always count for very much sometimes.

 

[SH60]

For crying out loud, Infernape's entire character arc was leading up to beating Paul's Electivire. It wasn't just about Ash, it was about Infernape - perhaps even more so - as well. Of course the rest of his team contributed, but it was Infernape that gave him the win in the end, where it counted the most. Please don't deliberately miss the point.

I'm calling BS on your entire premise - because it is to assume that - but even with that premise XY Ash would get stomped by Paul, because his team is so ridiculously stacked in his favour. In a battle between XY Ash and Paul, Ash would have to rely VERY heavily on Talonflame, and given that Paul's Gastrodon rather effectively took out Staraptor - and this was with Water Pulse, which unlike Staraptor, Talonflame would be especially weak against - it wouldn't get him very far. Without Talonflame he has no way to get rid of Toxic Spikes.

Ash-Greninja, lacking the personal grudge Infernape had against Electivire, would get flattened if that battle replayed itself, and no doubt at the end of the battle it would come down to those two. Aggron resists half his team's attacks. Torterra has more battle experience than any of XY Ash's Pokemon asides from Pikachu and that would count for a lot. Gastrodon could take down four out of six of his Pokemon by itself since it has Ice Beam. Froslass could take down Noivern and Goodra with relative ease if Gastrodon didn't get the job done. Drapion is one of his strongest Pokemon and even if he only used it to lay down Toxic Spikes, that's a major advantage. Ninjask is...just kinda there, I suppose, but a Giga Drain on that Greninja - and it's a safe bet to assume it'd be faster after a while thanks to Speed Boost - would go a long way towards taking it down.

So yes. If for some obscure reason Paul used the exact same team, against XY Ash, he would win with relative ease. Paul is actually intelligent enough to not rely solely upon attack moves, switch his Pokemon where necessary, take strategies from his opponent where necessary - XY Ash wouldn't use counter-shield, either - and use types to his advantage, even where that doesn't always count for very much sometimes.

You know what i'm done i'm sick and tired to talking to you about this so how about we agree to disagree. Both XY Ash and Paul are strong in there own right and both have a 50/50 chance of winning.

 

[Alexander18]

I voted for Paul because XY Ash is just the worst in my opinion. XY Ash no longer has a full team since he ditched Greninja and Goodra which was a huge mistake on writers part. Also Kalos is no way better than Sinnoh in my opinion.

 

[SH60]

Goodra and Greninja weren't that great anyways imo. Goodra was overrated; it's battle record wasn't impressive at all especially since 2 of the trainers it went up against and beat were Tierno and Clemont, which isn't saying much. It's also why I'm not surprised that it jobbed at the league.

I can't even see it beating any of Paul's Pokemon honestly. And I doubt Ash Greninja will do any better; maybe knock out 2 of Paul's Pokemon at the very most.

I don't think that XY Ash's team is doing worst than DP Ash's team.

 

[Alexander18]

I think DP Ash and Paul would have destroyed XY Ash. Both DP Ash and Paul have six pokemon. XY Ash only had four. Greninja and Goodra were great pokemon but XY Ash had to release them for no reason. That is why Paul and DP Ash would win in my opinion.

 

[SH60]

I think DP Ash and Paul would have destroyed XY Ash. Both DP Ash and Paul have six pokemon. XY Ash only had four. Greninja and Goodra were great pokemon but XY Ash had to release them for no reason. That is why Paul and DP Ash would win in my opinion.

We're using there league teams for this so they both have 6 pokemon.

 

[Frozocrone]

Goodra and Greninja weren't that great anyways imo. Goodra was overrated; it's battle record wasn't impressive at all especially since 2 of the trainers it went up against and beat were Tierno and Clemont, which isn't saying much. It's also why I'm not surprised that it jobbed at the league.

I can't even see it beating any of Paul's Pokemon honestly. And I doubt Ash Greninja will do any better; maybe knock out 2 of Paul's Pokemon at the very most.

Agree about Goodra, disagree about Greninja. Greninja and Pikachu carried the Kalos team to the final.

I'd argue that Greninja is the better 'anchor' between it and Infernape, but the mean strength across each time comes out with DP on top.

 

[Piii]

XY Ash would have destroy both DP Ash and Paul, because XY Ash train a lot more harder then both DP Ash and Paul put together. XY Ash will win against both DP Ash and Paul in battle.

 

[SH60]

Agree about Goodra, disagree about Greninja. Greninja and Pikachu carried the Kalos team to the final.

I'd argue that Greninja is the better 'anchor' between it and Infernape, but the mean strength across each time comes out with DP on top.

Really because Infernape was the only reason DP Ash won vs Paul without him DP Ash would have lost. I think that XY Ash has the better mean strength.

 

[Frozocrone]

Really because Infernape was the only reason DP Ash won vs Paul without him DP Ash would have lost. I think that XY Ash has the better mean strength.

...you realise the same can be said for Greninja and XY Ash?

The evidence doesn't even begin to suggest XY Ash's team is stronger. Noivern is a baby with barely any battle experience. At least the DP baby, Gible, was used in battles, was shown training moves and had a strong Draco Meteor that would have KOed Darkrai had it connected.

Goodra hadn't done much at all since it left the team. Gliscor went into training and it showed when Drapion couldn't beat Gliscor.

Hawlucha and Talonflame are better than Torterra because Ash never uses defensive Pokémon well. Staraptor is about the same level as both if not slightly higher considering the feats it pulled against Paul's Honchkrow.

Greninja has better feats than Infernape since it has megas to its KO tally but Infernape has more battle experience and this is more consistent (Greninja's power level fluctuates so hard it's an insult to bad writing).

 

[SH60]

...you realise the same can be said for Greninja and XY Ash?

The evidence doesn't even begin to suggest XY Ash's team is stronger. Noivern is a baby with barely any battle experience. At least the DP baby, Gible, was used in battles, was shown training moves and had a strong Draco Meteor that would have KOed Darkrai had it connected.

Goodra hadn't done much at all since it left the team. Gliscor went into training and it showed when Drapion couldn't beat Gliscor.

Hawlucha and Talonflame are better than Torterra because Ash never uses defensive Pokémon well. Staraptor is about the same level as both if not slightly higher considering the feats it pulled against Paul's Honchkrow.

Greninja has better feats than Infernape since it has megas to its KO tally but Infernape has more battle experience and this is more consistent (Greninja's power level fluctuates so hard it's an insult to bad writing).

I seen XY Ash's team put up better fights vs his rivals, than DP Ash's team had vs Paul.

 

[Frozocrone]

I seen XY Ash's team put up better fights vs his rivals, than DP Ash's team had vs Paul.

That's because Paul is a better rival who not only provided legitimate competition but also tested Ash's beliefs, ideals and methods.

Tierno and Trevor are trash, Sawyer's growth was ridiculous and Alain is basically a one-man show.

 

[SH60]

That's because Paul is a better rival who not only provided legitimate competition but also tested Ash's beliefs, ideals and methods.

Tierno and Trevor are trash, Sawyer's growth was ridiculous and Alain is basically a one-man show.

So any rival that doesn't test Ash's beliefs, ideals, and methods is a bad rival? And for me all of DP Ash's loses vs Paul before the league are BS.