Pokemon Tier Discussion/Resource

[Necromancy]

also wtf are chatot, sudowoodo, and shuckle doing in NU

Not to mention Manectric, with 105 Base Speed AND Special Attack, plus access to some really good special options (STAB Thunderbolt, Thunder, and Charge Beam, Flamethrower, Overheat, Hidden Power), and then there's Crunch to 2HKO UU's two top special walls.

 

[Dark Azelf]

How will Skymin be Uber by any stretch? It relies heavily on luck to get past its counters, Blissey, Zapdos examples, but it is fragile and easily worn down by SR / Sandstorm. It doesn't centralise OU as the standard special wallers and pokemon that resist its moves can get rid of it easily, bar "Seed Flare / Air Slash hax", which isn't that common as people are making it out to be.

What CT is saying back there is Skymin's alleged ability to force switches and inflict damage on the next pokemon switching in, is comparable to that of every other pokemon. I can bring Skymin on Vaporeon, and it deals damage to the next pokemon switching in. I can bring Suicune on Heatran, and it also does damage to the next pokemon switching in. I think you all have misintepreted it, and either way it doesn't help the argument.

I kinda agree with this.


Also the luck thing is annoying but technically Togekiss could paraflinch your whole team even zapdos and the thing is bulky to the point that a 269 sp.att un-stabbed thunderbolt doesnt even 4hko the max hp /max sp.def calm variants, thus its really not easy to revenge kill. Yet no one is going "zomg ubar" which people have been saying alot over the last months.


Serene Grace is "guided decided luck" by that mean its already kinda decided what the flinch rate and sp.def drop is, but in Garchomps case Sandveil could activate at ANY point in the match randomly, kinda like what Beachboy said. The 20% on chomp was more luck reliant than the 80% is on skymin.

The free "nasty plot" boost is overated, Azelf gets that, has near enough the same sp.att as shaymin yet its not gonna be getting past blissey any time soon (Unless it runs a NP + Taunt set.), same with skymin who can run a sub seed set to get past bliss.

Which brings up the point that it is unpredictable like other threats such as Lucario,however both have checks and counters so eh....with heatran and zapdos seemingly to be on every team...i just dont know...

SR however does helps immensly when dealing with it

As badly as that was worded im still on the fence too. It also doesnt help the matter that we STILL dont have a definition for what deems something uber =/.

*snip*

?

Awesome troll XD






EDIT :

Ill move Deoxys suck back up to ubers unless anyone has any complaints/valid arguments as to why not.

If you do have a valid argument as to why it shouldnt be, feel free to let yourself be heard.

 

[BeachBoy]

Deleted Sebastien's tiers, just floods the page. >_> By all means, feel free to make suggestions for tier moves for a couple of Pocket Monsters, but back it up with reason. Otherwise, keep it to yourself, Sebastien.

 

[Dukey]

Bah I'm so annoyed
Now my team can go back to its Huge Fighting weakness..

Oh well...

 

[DonRoyale]

Also the luck thing is annoying but technically Togekiss could paraflinch your whole team even zapdos and the thing is bulky to the point that a 269 sp.att un-stabbed thunderbolt doesnt even 4hko the max hp /max sp.def calm variants, thus its really not easy to revenge kill. Yet no one is going "zomg ubar" which people have been saying alot over the last months.

The 60% flinch rate on Air Slash is really not the reason we want Skymin in Ubers. It's that and the 80% -2 SpD drop from Seed Flare.

Plus, 166-192 Speed difference is a gigantic factor in what separates Togekiss and Skymin. Skymin doesn't have to waste 1 moveslot, therefore dropping coverage as a sweeper, in order to put that 60% flinch rate to use.

The free "nasty plot" boost is overated, Azelf gets that, has near enough the same sp.att as shaymin yet its not gonna be getting past blissey any time soon (Unless it runs a NP + Taunt set.), same with skymin who can run a sub seed set to get past bliss.

Free? No.
It needs a move slot to use Nasty Plot in, therefore the boost isn't free. The argument of this is moot because Seed Flare will get the "NP boost" 80% of the time while working off STAB and 120 BP. Azelf needs to forfeit coverage in order to boost its Special Attack, and let's take into account that while slight, Skymin is more defensively adept than Azelf in all facets of defense. While Azelf will be able to sweep easier, Skymin can force switches and even make the biggest counters scared to stay in.

It's not that I disagree with you persay, D_A, because I agree that residual damage murders it, but at the same time, by the time residual damage has done enough to kill it, it will probably have killed half your team.

 

[.]

Absol seems like the best candidate for BL at the moment. Drapion, the old, cookie-cutter counter is now 2HKO'd by Superpower. Sucker Punch OHKO's a lot of things, and hell, the crit ratio really hurts. Steelix isn't a counter anymore to fully physical versions, since Superpower can OHKO it (not too sure)

 

[crystalvelox]

I think to decide where Skymin (Haxmin as I call it) should be placed at you should compare it to garchomp since it had similar desputes that Skymin is having.

As we all know with Skymins speed it can outrun things garchomp never could without a scarf. Both have good offensive power. Although Garchomps power comes from the swords dance for most garchomps which only takes one turn to affect and can lasts for as long as it is out. Skymin has more versitility and equal results with its movesets like subseed or LO.

If you look at the idea of LO verison, Seed Flare it takes 2 turns to really see results and for EVERY pokemon it faces. One to knock out the spdef and the next to finish off the pokemon. So with LO that takes away HP very quickly plus the second turn it will take damage. Even with substitue up that is 25% taken away plus if you include other factors like prioty, sandstorm, and stealth rock, including that it has 85% chance to hit. So it will fall quickly. With air slash that is more of a long term gamble as multiple air slashes in therotical probability will not work for a long time. Yet it could work.

Garchomp had decent typing and decent defences making it easy to find a place to come in on even when switching. Skymin has more difficulty to come in as it has lower defences, 5 weaknesses and only 3 resists. Which is has to really rely on it's substistute or airslash to protect it from attacks which as I said before has it's risks through loss of Hp or not flinching.

Now when comparing effective counters and the idea of overcentralizing. Garchomp did not really have many definite counters and it was so powerful late game. So basically it was to be used on every team and everyone had to have something to revenge kill it with. Skymin is in similar waters yet it has more counters because of the idea of lower defences and it's typing.

If you take all that into consideration Garchomp in most aspects of battling and circumstances is better than that of Skymin because it had definitive and constant results. Skymin relys to much upon it's CHANCES of effectiveness and can mess up because of ill chance. So because of this, the only reason I see Skymin in uber is if the idea of OU is to keep out chance and have a constant and predictable environment.

 

[Archer]

OK, here's one major problem I have with Skymin. Darkrai. Skymin is equal or superior in many respects, although it has never strayed from Ubers.

Stats
​

Darkrai
HP: 70
Atk: 90
Def: 90
SAtk: 135
SDef: 90
Spd: 125

Skymin
HP: 100
Atk: 103
Def: 75
SAtk: 120
SDef: 75
Spd: 127

We can see from this, that they have very similar stats. Darkrai has higher SAtk, although it's attack is lower and it is marginally slower. They both have very similar bulk.

Moves

Darkrai
Dark Void - It's signature move is an 80% acc Sleep move. This is very reliable and can shut counters down, however is avoidable with Sleep Clause active.
Dark Pulse - It's main STAB is accurate and solid, however only has a meager 90 BP, with a small flinch chance.
Spacial Rend - As well as hitting slower Dragons, it offers good coverage, as it can hit all but steels.
Nasty Plot - Darkrai was given this with the move to Platinum, although it was Uber before this, so it is irrelevant to a degree.




Skymin
Seed Flare - This 120 BP STAB attack was given a boost to 80% chance of dropping the opponent's SDef by 2 stages. This is effectively a free Nasty Plot, as you are not giving foes a chance to set up, as well as getting an extra Moveslot. Did I mention it avoids Taunt?
Air Slash - Another reliable STAB, which has a 60% chance of flinching the opponent. Given that Skymin outspeeds most pokemon, this is dangerous. Togekiss is a threat with this and Skymin has an extra 47 Base Spd. It also hits Grass types that resist Seed Flare and Leech Seed.
Leech Seed - Sapping 12.5% of the enemy's health allows Skymin to take down several common Special Walls. It doesn't make it uber by any stretch, although it allows it to deal with most of it's counters.
Substitute - Something this fast and offensive gets ample opportunities to set up a Sub. This not only gives Skymin immunity from status, but completes the duo known as SubSeed. This also makes Skymin VERY difficult to revenge.

Basically what I am saying, is that Skymin is as good as or better than Darkrai, yet it is OU, when Darkrai has been Uber since the beginning. This appears to be a double standard. I believe that if Darkrai is Uber, then Skymin should be as well.

Skymin for President Ubers.
​

 

[luke]

I think it's time we break down UU so that there's an NU tier as well. Before it was taken down on Smogon, NU included:

Ariados
Beautifly
Beedrill
Bibarel
Castform
Chatot
Chimecho
Corsola
Delcatty
Delibird
Ditto
Dustox
Exploud
Farfetch'd
Furret
Glalie
Huntail
Illumise
Kricketune
Ledian
Luvdisc
Magcargo
Masquerain
Mawile
Mightyena
Minun
Mothim
Noctowl
Pachirisu
Parasect
Pelipper
Phione
Pidgeot
Plusle
Seaking
Spinda
Sudowoodo
Sunflora
Torkoal
Tropius
Unown
Venomoth
Volbeat


Venomoth is clearly UU now. Italicized Pokemon are ones I would consider UU. Are there any other Pokemon you'd consider moving down to NU that aren't on the list? No dumb arguments.

 

[Glitter Stain]

Chatot

While Chatot's Speed and Special Attack are above average, it is still outsped by things and risks a OHKO from almost everything in both UU and NU. Its HP is subpar and its Defenses suck horribly, so it clearly belongs in NU.

EDIT: Although, I do agree with both Noctowl and Venomoth clearly being UU Pokemon.

 

[DarkTyphlosion157]

Phione and Huntail should be UU as well. With Rain, they are far too strong. Phione takes ages to take down, and Huntail is similar to Gorebyss.

Also, Torkoal in NU? With that defence and Rapid Spin?

 

[Anti]

Funny how about last week you were all for Skymin being uber. And I don't see how 80% is "luck" Using your logic, something like Fire Blast/Focus Blast actually *hitting* is considered luck, which it's not. Air Slash hax happens 60% of the time, and Seed Flare happens a whopping 80%

True, that all Pokes force switches, but even your counter can be incapitated due to a -2 SpD drop that more likely than not, will occur. I don't know if Skymin should be uber or not, I don't much trouble with it, but hey, maybe I've been lucky.

Before I respond to this I'd just like to say that I don't care which way it goes and I have no opinion on the matter but...

How is changing your opinion "funny" or even bad (which you were clearly implying)? All it really shows is open-mindedness, so I don't see how it is "funny" or why it even matters.

Also, a low-accuracy attack hitting IS luck =/ Perhaps the difference is that when choosing to use such a move, you take into account that the attack could miss and that you could have good or bad luck, while going against Skymin there is no such condition. However, saying it is not luck is simply not true.

Pokemon is a luck-based game anyways. Almost every turn there is "luck" considering that there is no given amount of damage each attack can do to another pokemon, but a range of possible damage. I think maybe the "luck factor" itself needs to be discussed a little more since it clearly stirs up a lot of controversy, like with Garchomp and its Sand Veil.

 

[shedinjask]

While Chatot's Speed and Special Attack are above average, it is still outsped by things and risks a OHKO from almost everything in both UU and NU. Its HP is subpar and its Defenses suck horribly, so it clearly belongs in NU.

EDIT: Although, I do agree with both Noctowl and Venomoth clearly being UU Pokemon.

Can you name one thing in NU that can counter Chatot? What about revenge kill?

 

[Glitter Stain]

Can you name one thing in NU that can counter Chatot? What about revenge kill?

Uh, Plusle, Minun, and Pachirisu all switch in fairly easily and can put an end to it quickly. (Chatot can't KO any of them easily, and all of them have Electric type moves).

 

[.]

How is changing your opinion "funny" or even bad (which you were clearly implying)? All it really shows is open-mindedness, so I don't see how it is "funny" or why it even matters.

Never said it was bad; assumption.

Also, a low-accuracy attack hitting IS luck =/

85% is low accuracy, definately.

Perhaps the difference is that when choosing to use such a move, you take into account that the attack could miss and that you could have good or bad luck, while going against Skymin there is no such condition. However, saying it is not luck is simply not true.

Luck is when the odds are against the action from happening. It's considered hax when Focus Blast misses, but no one screams "HAX" when Focus Blast hits. 80% chance to lower a foes SpD means that 8 times out of 10, SpD WILL be lowered. I don't see how it lowering SpD is considered "luck" when it's chances of lowering are much greater than its chances of not.

Pokemon is a luck-based game anyways. Almost every turn there is "luck" considering that there is no given amount of damage each attack can do to another pokemon, but a range of possible damage. I think maybe the "luck factor" itself needs to be discussed a little more since it clearly stirs up a lot of controversy, like with Garchomp and its Sand Veil.

I agree, although Def EVs and things like that can make the outcome slightly less reliant on luck.

 

[Anti]

Never said it was bad; assumption.

But you implied it, whether you meant to or not. That's all I said ;p

85% is low accuracy, definately.

We can argue about what exactly "low" is, but it is unreliable you must admit. That's all I was really going for.

Luck is when the odds are against the action from happening. It's considered hax when Focus Blast misses, but no one screams "HAX" when Focus Blast hits. 80% chance to lower a foes SpD means that 8 times out of 10, SpD WILL be lowered. I don't see how it lowering SpD is considered "luck" when it's chances of lowering are much greater than its chances of not.

While the definition is off, I see where you're coming from in saying this. Still, anything with any kind of probabilities that can go one way or another can be considered luck (whether it is or not). My view on it is more "the chances of getting lucky with Skymin are much higher then with something like Psychic (which can lower SDef)." I think that both Focus Blast hitting or missing is luck. If it hits, you are certainly lucky that it didn't miss (and the same could be said vice versa).

It's the issue that has really caused a lot of problems and I think it might be better to have a broader discussion in another thread of the raters group rather than the tier discussion thread, so you can respond to this there if you so choose ;p

I agree, although Def EVs and things like that can make the outcome slightly less reliant on luck.

Which goes back to just what effect luck can have and how it can be decreased or increased. I agree with you, just wanted to point that out ;p

Since I don't actually have an opinion on Skymin but just on luck itself, I'll bow out of the Skymin discussion now, but I think the whole factor of luck in pokemon should be discussed to a greater extent somewhere else.

 

[sims796]

How is changing your opinion "funny" or even bad (which you were clearly implying)? All it really shows is open-mindedness, so I don't see how it is "funny" or why it even matters.

Well, that in itself is no bad thing, but I think Vance is speaking about how you argue (or debate, whichever sounds less accusing) so fiercely on one side, yet completely flip to the other side without warning...and then flip back. It gets a little hard to see your point at times.

But ignoring that, I don't really care for it, just pointing it out.

I don't see a need to have a thread about tier luck & whatnot. Not now. If luck was the sole defining characteristic going for it, then Dunsparce should be banned (lulz insured). But Shaymin is very powerful, and that's without relying on the impressive 85% chance of Sp.Def drop. And the occasional < %50 flinch rate --not on Lucario :)

I think much stress is beig put into Haxmin, while ignoring her other talents. I mean, somewhat, of course. Not to say that we are completely diregarding the her power.

I am very pleased that nobody has wasted anyone's time with such replies as "Clear Body beets Shaymin!!!!!!11!". Very pleased.

 

[Skip Shot]

I think it's time we break down UU so that there's an NU tier as well. Before it was taken down on Smogon, NU included:

Ariados
Beautifly
Beedrill
Bibarel
Castform
Chatot
Chimecho
Corsola
Delcatty
Delibird
Ditto
Dustox
Exploud
Farfetch'd
Furret
Glalie
Huntail
Illumise
Kricketune
Ledian
Luvdisc
Magcargo
Masquerain
Mawile
Mightyena
Minun
Mothim
Noctowl
Pachirisu
Parasect
Pelipper
Phione
Pidgeot
Plusle
Seaking
Spinda
Sudowoodo
Sunflora
Torkoal
Tropius
Unown
Venomoth
Volbeat


Venomoth is clearly UU now. Italicized Pokemon are ones I would consider UU. Are there any other Pokemon you'd consider moving down to NU that aren't on the list? No dumb arguments.

I agree on Venomoth. I bolded other pokemon i think should move to UU.

Very few things can wall Bibarel in NU. Waterfall can run over most pokes, Curse makes it compeletely beastly as a sweeper, Amnesia can make it a hyperactive wall. I actually support Bibarel moving higher than UU, but that's my personal opinion.

As previously stated, Huntail is a monster in the rain, and can also function as a nice physical wall, thanks to its base 105 Def. Granted, its no Steelix, but it can do a good job as a Rain Dance Sweeper/Tank Sweeper.

Sudowoodo gets a very nice array of moves to use, including Wood Hammer, Double Edge, Stone Edge, Earthquake, and Hammer Arm. Due to Rock Head, Wood Hammer and DoubleEdge don't make Sudo lose damage, Stone Edge and EQ are pretty self-explanatory, and Hammer Arm's Speed drop doesn't matter due to its already low speed. CB Sudowoodo is a total monster.

 

[.]

But you implied it, whether you meant to or not. That's all I said ;p

I said "Funny". You tried to incorporate "bad" into the meaning.

We can argue about what exactly "low" is, but it is unreliable you must admit. That's all I was really going for.

All moves can be unreliable. I've had Ice Fang miss (95% accuracy) on a target, but I wouldn't call it unreliable. 85% isn't THAT bad. 8.5/10 is still a pretty good bet.

While the definition is off, I see where you're coming from in saying this. Still, anything with any kind of probabilities that can go one way or another can be considered luck (whether it is or not). My view on it is more "the chances of getting lucky with Skymin are much higher then with something like Psychic (which can lower SDef)." I think that both Focus Blast hitting or missing is luck. If it hits, you are certainly lucky that it didn't miss (and the same could be said vice versa).

Now I understand what you meant, I thought that you were saying Seed Flare hitting was "hax".

Which goes back to just what effect luck can have and how it can be decreased or increased. I agree with you, just wanted to point that out ;p

;p

 

[Anti]

I said "Funny". You tried to incorporate "bad" into the meaning.

I think we best agree to disagree on this one ;p

All moves can be unreliable. I've had Ice Fang miss (95% accuracy) on a target, but I wouldn't call it unreliable. 85% isn't THAT bad. 8.5/10 is still a pretty good bet.

I can't even begin to count how many times a battle of mine has been altered at the very least because Heatran's Fire Blast decided not to hit, often times more than once. 85% isn't that bad, but it's bad enough that I would coin it unreliable. Again, it's pretty subjective so...

Now I understand what you meant, I thought that you were saying Seed Flare hitting was "hax".

Well it technically is, it's just that nobody would say so unless they were just looking for excuses because when you use a move, you expect it to hit. I actually think it's a little weird but that's another story lol

;p

Aaaaaaaaaaand sims, I see your point, but luck isn't useful in the hands of something useless already, like Dunsparce. It's still going to get crushed by everything. Things like Garchomp and Skymin are good enough that many believe the extra luck they have tips the scale, and that's what I'm interested in.

Still, if you're trying to ban something, you have to prove that it's uber or BL or whatever. In the Garchomp discussions, the whole "overkill" thing was used, but I just didn't see it and still don't. I have a feeling that Skymin could have a very similar fate when it comes to what people actually decide to base their votes on (assuming Smogon keeps that system in place, and as much as I don't like it, it's better than most anything else).

I think my mini debate with Vance kind of shows it...people interpret luck differently in many cases, and I don't think any well thought-out interpretations are really "wrong," but it does show how weird the issue is, hahaha

I still think people whine about luck way too much in a luck-based game to begin with, lol