Chit-Chat: ROM Hacking Daily Chit Chat

[Bela]

I think a competition needs a group of judges determining an overall winner. Otherwise, this really amounts to little more than a contest of who can get the most people to post in the nomination thread. I don't think that really speaks to the quality of the hacks, and if it were held in other years, would mean a hack like Dark Rising would win.

I feel there should be a real discussion about this decision, and perhaps alongside these hack awards, a HotY should still be held.

 

[Deokishisu]

I think a competition needs a group of judges determining an overall winner. Otherwise, this really amounts to little more than a contest of who can get the most people to post in the nomination thread. I don't think that really speaks to the quality of the hacks, and if it were held in other years, would mean a hack like Dark Rising would win.

I feel there should be a real discussion about this decision, and perhaps alongside these hack awards, a HotY should still be held.

Yeah, that's what gets me. There was no community feedback about this decision. We were all plugging along expecting a standard HotY, and then this popularity contest gets dropped on us instead. Where was the communication? How many people actually made this decision?

I would be keen on holding a HotY and making these "Hack Awards" just fluff or like, honorable mention awards. Then you have a standard HotY process so that the hacks that deserve awards can have their chance to get them.

 

[Tcoppy]

Yeah, that's what gets me. There was no community feedback about this decision. We were all plugging along expecting a standard HotY, and then this popularity contest gets dropped on us instead. Where was the communication? How many people actually made this decision?

I feel there should be a real discussion about this decision, and perhaps alongside these hack awards, a HotY should still be held.

Although I still hold by my stance on if this is the way it has to be, I'm content if it's fleshed out, the way there was no discussion or warning here is pretty nasty.

What I don't get is the sudden switch, I can imply all I want and sadly that's all I can do, there is literally no reason given as to why there was a switch? Is it because of the people complaining last year? Is it because no one wants to judge and no one wants to get others to judge? Or, is it what I'm implying, you guys just want more people involved?

Communication is key here, guys

 

[Mr.Mako]

Since we can't state opinions on the non hoty hoty thread I'll say it here since dear Christos made it clear. I personally find it to be even more ludicrous than hoty ever was. I mean really best npc? Come on. Now some aspects will give underrecognised hacks a time to shine but it is unlikely to occur because of the popularity contest nature of this current incarnation of the hoty. At this point why not let an outside group handle the contest since it doesnt seem like it matters anyway.

 

[Blah]

I hear Hoty is just being withdrawn this year because it was determined that the competition wouldn't be too great due to the lack of good eligible hacks this year. So the idea is probably to preserve the prestige of the award by revoking it for this year and rewarding it to the community ROM hack next year. I can understand not holding a competition you believe the result of which will tarnish the tradition, and I also sympathize with the comments people have posted here so far about their concerns.

It is a popularity contest, and mods are fine with that because this year's competition is just there to fill in the HOTY award gap. I'm not happy with the decision or the way it's being handled mostly because I think the same problem will occur for the rest of this subforum's lifespan and this is a poor compromise. Perhaps keeping the judging panel but also adding a community vote factor into the scoring will keep most parties happy. It's something to consider for next time atleast.

 

[Tcoppy]

I hear Hoty is just being withdrawn this year because it was determined that the competition wouldn't be too great due to the lack of good eligible hacks this year.

I'm going to be blunt about this. If what you heard is true, this is pretty terrifying. "Good" eligible hacks are subjective and I know you know, but for people that don't know and are reading this thread, the nomination part of the competition always includes eligible hacks throughout the whole year, whether they are appealing to some or not.

I really hope what you heard is false or maybe you could elaborate what you heard a bit more, because if it is true, one could argue that it's disgusting that the people who would be judging do not want to play a specific hack because people picked it, whether they had other options or not, and thus, they are changing it up for this year to avoid playing a chosen "bad" hack.

I'm not even going to argue about the "eligibility" of hacks coming out of 2016, because there are many that have reached the requirements required to go into HOTY.

 

[Logan]

I like that you guys have some real feedback here, never stop doing that :).

I'll give you a little insight into the thought process in this post and then you can tell me where you'd like to go from here. If you guys are desperate to run a HotY this year and feel it should be done then we will do it. You guys are the community and we cater to you; but, first, just listen to the thought process and then tell me what you think.

We've decided to delay HotY for the time being to allow hacks to grow. One thing I look at when HotY comes around is the number of fresh releases this year. I just feel that we need time to let a few hacks grow before we run a HotY competition, I certainly feel that if we ran HotY right now Adventure Red and Eclipse would be in the judging 3 once more. Eclipse has not had a release this year and kind of defeats the object of being 'Hack of the Year'. Another example of a hack I feel needs time to grow is Rose - a really good hack but, again, without a 2016 release. Delaying HotY doesn't mean getting rid of it or waiting an entire year, if we feel there has been enough significant releases then running it in January or March, for example, wouldn't be out of the question.

After we made the decision to not run HotY we decided we needed to run something for you guys, and this is what we came up with. It's pretty much an opposite setup to the regimented HotY and is purely for fun, the awards aren't really meant to show what is the best of the best in the same way HotY. Is this a popularity contest? Yes. This is exactly what we have aimed for this year. Yes, HotY is a tradition here but I don't feel we should run what likely be a 2015 repeat in 2016 purely because of tradition. I want to wait until hacks have grow and we can run a full-fledged fresh HotY.

I hope I made sense and I hope we can reach a happy medium.

 

[Mr.Mako]

I like that you guys have some real feedback here, never stop doing that :).

I'll give you a little insight into the thought process in this post and then you can tell me where you'd like to go from here. If you guys are desperate to run a HotY this year and feel it should be done then we will do it. You guys are the community and we cater to you; but, first, just listen to the thought process and then tell me what you think.

We've decided to delay HotY for the time being to allow hacks to grow. One thing I look at when HotY comes around is the number of fresh releases this year. I just feel that we need time to let a few hacks grow before we run a HotY competition, I certainly feel that if we ran HotY right now Adventure Red and Eclipse would be in the judging 3 once more. Eclipse has not had a release this year and kind of defeats the object of being 'Hack of the Year'. Another example of a hack I feel needs time to grow is Rose - a really good hack but, again, without a 2016 release. Delaying HotY doesn't mean getting rid of it or waiting an entire year, if we feel there has been enough significant releases then running it in January or March, for example, wouldn't be out of the question.

After we made the decision to not run HotY we decided we needed to run something for you guys, and this is what we came up with. It's pretty much an opposite setup to the regimented HotY and is purely for fun, the awards aren't really meant to show what is the best of the best in the same way HotY. Is this a popularity contest? Yes. This is exactly what we have aimed for this year. Yes, HotY is a tradition here but I don't feel we should run what likely be a 2015 repeat in 2016 purely because of tradition. I want to wait until hacks have grow and we can run a full-fledged fresh HotY.

I hope I made sense and I hope we can reach a happy medium.

Its actually nice to hear the reasoning now, but if this doesnt show how garbage this year has been nothing will. :P
I agree it is good to avoid a repeat though I thought hack that ran for hoty weren't eligible the following year. Feel free to correct me. Surely there are more hack available than manga hack 2016 and whatever else has been mentioned.

 

[Froosty]

Hey mods, What about the HOTM ???
I have not seen if for few months !!!!!

 

[bte234]

Heya

 

[Tcoppy]

We've decided to delay HotY for the time being to allow hacks to grow. One thing I look at when HotY comes around is the number of fresh releases this year. I just feel that we need time to let a few hacks grow before we run a HotY competition, I certainly feel that if we ran HotY right now Adventure Red and Eclipse would be in the judging 3 once more. Eclipse has not had a release this year and kind of defeats the object of being 'Hack of the Year'. Another example of a hack I feel needs time to grow is Rose - a really good hack but, again, without a 2016 release. Delaying HotY doesn't mean getting rid of it or waiting an entire year, if we feel there has been enough significant releases then running it in January or March, for example, wouldn't be out of the question.

After we made the decision to not run HotY we decided we needed to run something for you guys, and this is what we came up with. It's pretty much an opposite setup to the regimented HotY and is purely for fun, the awards aren't really meant to show what is the best of the best in the same way HotY. Yes, HotY is a tradition here but I don't feel we should run what likely be a 2015 repeat in 2016 purely because of tradition. I want to wait until hacks have grow and we can run a full-fledged fresh HotY.

We're replacing this year's Hack of the Year competition to have the community pick its own best and favourite hacks at the Pok?Community Hack Awards!

Because obviously, delaying and replacing are the same exact things.

Also just as another small point, if we had a discussion about all of this before I don't think people would be as mad or disgusted as they are now. But screw that right? "Might as well explain to the community about the situation after people complain about it"

Now, let's go over what you mean by fresh releases. The funniest thing about this is that there have been so many hacks that have been released in 2016 that are clearly eligible (Korosu, Giratina Strikes Back, Rocket Edition, Stunning Steel, and if we're gonna be really recent, Sweet 2th, there are more but I already feel disgusting doing the work of digging through hacks for you), but I guess they all just are not "fresh" enough.

Sure it's likely Adventure Red would be nominated because of the huge fan base it has, but for Eclipse I could see it easily not be nominated because there haven't been any satisfying updates in 2016. Hacks that would be eligible in 2016 could even replace Adventure Red and Eclipse as nominations, but I guess we won't really know.

Or, if we're going to do this a scummy way, let's just wait for Rose to come out and do the HOTY then, because obvious winner is obvious.

 

[Spherical Ice]

Because obviously, delaying and replacing are the same exact things.

Also just as another small point, if we had a discussion about all of this before I don't think people would be as mad or disgusted as they are now. But screw that right? "Might as well explain to the community about the situation after people complain about it"

Now, let's go over what you mean by fresh releases. The funniest thing about this is that there have been so many hacks that have been released in 2016 that are clearly eligible (Korosu, Giratina Strikes Back, Rocket Edition, Stunning Steel, and if we're gonna be really recent, Sweet 2th, there are more but I already feel disgusting doing the work of digging through hacks for you), but I guess they all just are not "fresh" enough.

Sure it's likely Adventure Red would be nominated because of the huge fan base it has, but for Eclipse I could see it easily not be nominated because there haven't been any satisfying updates in 2016. Hacks that would be eligible in 2016 could even replace Adventure Red and Eclipse as nominations, but I guess we won't really know.

Or, if we're going to do this a scummy way, let's just wait for Rose to come out and do the HOTY then, because obvious winner is obvious.

First, I'd like to reiterate that we're 100% open to your guys' feedback and constructive criticism is definitely valued and influences our decisions massively. I also appreciate that you're very passionate about what goes on here, it means a lot to us. That being said, I do think you're taking a somewhat hostile tone which can make it difficult to fitler the actually useful points you're making; it's understandable but I'd ask you tone it down a bit.

I can't necessarily speak for others, but my interpretation of the "fresh releases" comment was simply that, from the staff's collective assessment (and yes, we are fallible!), interest in the community for Hack of the Year had been dwindling. This is not intended as a slight against hacks released this year; it's symptomatic of the contest in general for the past few years. Take the top three from 2013, 2014 and 2015: in 2013, it was Liquid Crystal, Glazed and Adventure Red; in 2014, Glazed, Gaia and Adventure Red; in 2015, Gaia, Eclipse and Adventure Red. That's at least one, sometimes two, repeated titles over three years. I'm sure we can all agree that it's not very encouraging for newer hacks if you constantly see the same two or three names popping up. Our answer to this was that the contest needed time to breathe, to let newer titles (the "fresh releases) grow and develop to the point where they too can be at a level of completeness and notoriety where the top three aren't a predictable set of the same names, and to try and foster a tighter competition.

The Hack Awards running this year do not represent a cancellation of Hack of the Year, merely a hiatus. All the hacks you listed will still exist the next time Hack of the Year is run, whether that be in a few months' time, next year, or later, and I personally am optimistic enough in the community that they won't be forgotten in such a short span of time. The only thing that can change in the mean time is that other hackers can too continue to develop and let their hacks grow to eventually lead to a contest with more than just three or four names really ever being in the running. It's also worth noting that there had been a growing trend of dissatisfaction with Hack of the Year from some users which made us approach the contest this year with the view of trying to retool the end-of-year event for the section to try and answer their complaints.

I personally agree with you that our communication on this issue was not ideal; it was of course not our intention to not announce anything, and to that I appeal to the fact that we are at the end of the day just human. The ROM Hacking team and higher staff are currently working on a multitude of (very exciting!) other goings on behind the scenes for the past few months which meant, unfortunately, focus on Hack of the Year was not our number one priority. At the same time, we did not want to let what has been an annual tradition for nearly a decade now fall to the wayside, and so when it turned November we followed through with the plans we had made (which, unfortunately, meant neglecting to make an announcement prior). I'd implore you and the rest of the community to be more open-minded to change: whether or not the deployment of this new contest was executed flawlessly is obviously up for debate, but I'd urge you to give what we've given you a chance, be patient with us, and, crucially, understand that we're not acting maliciously.

 

[Mr.Mako]

This is not intended as a slight against hacks released this year; it's symptomatic of the contest in general for the past few years. Take the top three from 2013, 2014 and 2015: in 2013, it was Liquid Crystal, Glazed and Adventure Red; in 2014, Glazed, Gaia and Adventure Red; in 2015, Gaia, Eclipse and Adventure Red. That's at least one, sometimes two, repeated titles over three years. I'm sure we can all agree that it's not very encouraging for newer hacks if you constantly see the same two or three names popping up. Our answer to this was that the contest needed time to breathe, to let newer titles (the "fresh releases) grow and develop to the point where they too can be at a level of completeness and notoriety where the top three aren't a predictable set of the same names, and to try and foster a tighter competition.

If the issue is a result of the same name showing up every time then the solution is quite obvious in that if you're nominated period your hack isn't eligible again for a couple years thus giving other hacks the chance to shine and create more competition. Now I know you cant be nominated again if you win, unless that changed when I wasn't looking, but I don't see why a delay on nomination wasn't put in place for the losers to keep the competition from being stale. Since otherwise Adventure Red will keep showing up until it wins, but at the end of the day the decision does come down to you mods. I will say I'm certainly surprised that this discussion hasn't devolved into a total crap-posting fest.

 

[Tcoppy]

~snip~

My apologies about the somewhat hostile tone. It wasn't suppose to come out as being hostile but more snarky/sarcastic, obviously that didn't end up conveying well.

Like I've stated before at several places, I felt like you all meant well, but because of the speculation about not having "enough good eligible hacks", it kind of set off some red flags as if hacks are being targeted rather than the freshness of the award process.

However, it could be argued for the past six years that hoty has not been fresh. If we want to go in prior to 2013 we had Life of Guardians and Light Platinum in 2009 and upwards until both hacks won in 2011 and 2012 respectively. The "staleness" has been around for quite some time.

My fear is linked with what FBI said in his post prior:

because I think the same problem will occur for the rest of this subforum's lifespan and this is a poor compromise

Again, I admire the fact that the staff want to attempt at something new, but doing it this way, we could be having the same exact problem that is facing people now for the next few years, because hoty hasn't been "fresh" in a long while, because of the evolution of the event and the evolution of the community here.

I have enough faith and I do want to see how this all pans out, but if the same problem occurs next year, are we going to have to do this again or move on to something else, something more open to everyone rather than pander to one group and not another?

 

[Quinhas]

This is a poorly thought out idea. HotY is not only a tradition, but its setup is the only way to minimize brigading by unscrupulous members and ensure that the hacks are judged by the people most fit to judge a hack's quality. That is, veterans of our community who have been around the block a few times and know what's up.

This free-for-all system will be rife with abuse and allow the hackers that spread their hacks across reddit and other forums to crowdsource votes from people who aren't even involved in our community, or haven't played enough hacks to know what's good or not, and have just joined for the brigade vote.

In other words, we all know to disregard any accolades that a hack receives from this year, as they are invalid and can't vouch for a hack's quality.

We had judges so that HotY could maintain some integrity. There is no integrity now. I mean, look at this guy:Should we truly take this member's opinion at face value (even if he or she revises their post so that it follows the form)? This is no longer a "Best Hack Overall" contest; it is a popularity contest.

Very disappointed in the staff for doing it this way. With how long most of you have been here, you should've known better.

EDIT: Summoning the mods, because I really really want to know the justification for this decision and to have some sort of dialogue about this.

Spoiler:

I feel kind of sorry for you.
Freedom of speech do you know what it means?

Wen the president of a team or even a country is voted to win it is not voted by four or five persons neither is voted just by reach or poor people or just by the ones that study more than others

Every one that have played most of the hacks in here should be able to vote in totally agree with the staff only this way we find a fair winner

 

[DizzyEgg]

I feel kind of sorry for you.
Freedom of speech do you know what it means?

Wen the president of a team or even a country is voted to win it is not voted by four or five persons neither is voted just by reach or poor people or just by the ones that study more than others

Every one that have played most of the hacks in here should be able to vote in totally agree with the staff only this way we find a fair winner

It doesn't mean everyone's vote has the same value. Or at least it shouldn't.

 

[Quinhas]

Why are you more than anybody else here? We all equal and maybe the people of dissing are more qualified than u and have higher IQ than you, or at least that your showing with your comments

 

[Blah]

I think he means that veteran hackers are better judges than players, which is a subjective opinion. The current categories are vague enough that anyone can judge hacks with that criteria, the issue arises when comparing fan votes vs neutral votes. This voting system, the hack with the most popularity and fans is sure to win, and I think you can agree that popularity isn't a good measurement on these sorts of things.

Judging panels only work when the judges are neutral towards all the proposed hacks. That's why I think the community nomination process -> judging process was a good way to handle it. Assuming that everyone on the judges panel had neutral opinions on each hack, they'd actually be able to judge them properly. I'm of the personal belief that the panel should be a little mixed. Maybe 1-2 veteran hackers and the remainder from other areas of specialization. Anyways, lets not insult eachother and meme about superiority :c

 

[Quinhas]

It was clear that everyone was allow to vote for any hack they wanted as long as they were in the correct category, the moaning here is the pain ofor the hack it choose to vote for and the argument is childish it seams to me that some people are some how scared they hacks are not good enough sow they feel the need to complain and cry about others decision it's attitudes like that that made good hackers leave this community.

Last year it was a joke the way hacks were elected the way things are this year it's impossible to have corruption it's fair and square and that's what some people can't stand...

 

[Blah]

How is it a joke? The community had the opportunity to vote in an open vote for hacks they wanted to nominate. Those nominees were then taken to judges which scored them based on categories. I fail to see the unfairness you're referring to. Are you accusing the judges for being bais? If you read the criticisms we wrote down for each hack in each section, you'll see that there were good and valid reasoning for the scores we gave.

While I'm confused who these good hackers you're talking about, I think it's important to consider that some people get tired of this hobby and move on. There may be rare cases where a hacker may leave the community and elect to do their own marketing (see darkrising). Can we have some names of these good hackers you're referring to? The only case I saw where an actual good hacker moving their things off of PC is Gamer2020's PGE, but he's still active here, just his tool isn't available for download. Your claims seem baseless to me.