Your opinion on feminism?

Joker said:

If you're a man you shouldn't even be talking about if feminism is needed.
It's a woman's issue, not your issue.

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I may be a man, but I think it's needed. Why the fuck do we need to still be discussing whether women should be treated equally to men? Why do we still have to discuss what a woman can do with her body? It's 2018, and we still have to discuss equal rights amongst sexes. There's very much something wrong with that statement.

I may be a man, but if a woman wants to work the same jobs a man does, who am I to say she shouldn't? If she wants to work that job, let her at it, and while we're at it, you'd also better be paying her the same as I'm being paid, no more, no less.

I may be a man, but if a woman wants to abort an unborn child, who am I to tell her what she can and cannot do with her body? If she doesn't want to carry that child to term (say, rape) why does the boys club have the right to decide what to do? What if it's a health hazard to the mother?

I may be a man talking about a woman's issue, and honestly, I have every right to do so, because if change is going to start somewhere, it's going to be with the people that started this in the first place.

Joker said:

If you're a man you shouldn't even be talking about if feminism is needed.
It's a woman's issue, not your issue.

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I think this is just a tad ignorant, hunny. As a young woman myself, I wholeheartedly disagree with you. You simply can't silence an individual or a group of individuals because of their gender, that's not right. Feminism involves both genders because it involves equality between BOTH men and women collectively. To be frank, it's immature to dismiss someone's opinion based on a factor that they can't control, being gender. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and you have absolutely no right to deny someone of that right. Please think carefully before you say something so ignorant.

I don't believe that you meant any harm with your post, however, I encourage you to be more open-minded, and perhaps, rather than blatantly shaming men for offering an opinion, maybe you should respectfully listen. You seem to be reinforcing the stereotype of passive-aggressive, closed-minded feminists.

Vragon2.0 hit the nail on the head.

Joker said:

If you're a man you shouldn't even be talking about if feminism is needed.
It's a woman's issue, not your issue.

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Gender inequality affects everyone and this mindset is exactly why I have a problem with feminism.
Having a penis should not bar me from talking about any topic, speaking of which.

Sorry, I was in a rush and family irl stuff. But what I meant to say is that in some aspects it's better left to women? ie like abortion stuff?
Though I feel feminism could be beneficial for men too, actually.

I'm actually not even a woman myself, I'm nonbinary so ^^

Joker said:

Sorry, I was in a rush and family irl stuff. But what I meant to say is that in some aspects it's better left to women? ie like abortion stuff?
Though I feel feminism could be beneficial for men too, actually.

I'm actually not even a woman myself, I'm nonbinary so ^^

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I disagree, yes there are some you could say are more experts, but again, peeps shouldn't be left out of the conversation just cause they have a dick. Also, it's coming to the point where it honestly should just be called, "Gender Equalization" since feminism is too focused on what it initially was and has achieved, thus now being able to address both gender issues instead of well, women being able to do anything.

Anyone that brazes into the topic can form an opinion, and anyone that can form an opinion on it can back it up. We can debate on whether the opinion or idea is well-founded, but opinions cannot be right nor wrong. They just are perceptions and they are based by the limits of our viewings. Course, that doesn't stop us from thinking we're right and that's a perfectly fine thing to think so long as you don't allow it to engulf your ability to see or at least listen to other perspectives.

In short, I disagree. Anyone that does their damndest to research and look into a topic with getting as many sides and stuff as possible should be able to comment on said topic. Abortion is no different. This is after all, a debate place and the like.

To me, feminism is extremely important for both men and women. We live in a society where to be feminine [for men or women] is often associated with being weak/lesser. The term ?feminism?, unfortunately, does have a negative connatation for many, but a lot of times it?s due to bad apples trying to take things to the extreme, or trolls who pretend to be feminists.

We also, unfortunately, live in a time where pseudo-white-feminism exists, which translates to white cis feminism for white cis women by white cis women. This leaves out the more disenfranchised minorities - LGBTQ+/POC/etc. True feminism is for all of the above.

The way I interpreted Joker?s original post is not that men should not have input re: feminism whatsoever. The real message, to me, was that men should not be able to dictate that feminism is not an actual issue/dismiss feminism as a nonissue/etc. And, that?s true - the oppressors cannot dictate whether or not someone is being oppressed.

Peridot said:

The way I interpreted Joker?s original post is not that men should not have input re: feminism whatsoever. The real message, to me, was that men should not be able to dictate that feminism is not an actual issue/dismiss feminism as a nonissue/etc. And, that?s true - the oppressors cannot dictate whether or not someone is being oppressed.

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And who's saying that peeps are? I get peeps that are saying feminism is all crazy right now, but no one aside from Incels really are. Peeps are critiquing the stuff about feminism and honestly giving points in regards to how it is functioning and how it is going on.

Even if we take the point that "Oppressors cannot dictate whether or not someone is being oppressed" (which while I agree, at the same time is not what is at play here). By this, I'm not saying women don't have problems caused by men nor vica versa, however I will say that if you're going to call attention to oppression, you should show it and anyone can look at it and critique what you brought.

Dismissal isn't so cut and dry as to "dismiss the person" but the basis being brought and right now that's what's going on here. Debates are all about that. From what a lot of peeps have inputted, a critique of feminism is that it's too focused on it's own agenda and peeps and not taking in the whole aspect of "Equality" which is kinda where you're going, but if feminism is truly about equality of the sexes then you should probably just add all the types of guys to it as well since well, equality of sexes.

So, while your thing is more lax, I have to say "No s*** sherlock" to peeps not forcing others what to do. I mean, you have the freedoms <-- emphasis on this word
to do what you want as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others. We're talking about issues and the validity of many things and the common critique I've seen in this thread regarding feminism is still there and isn't being addressed.

So let me ask you this then.
I agree that feminism is about equality (though I went on a big rant on how it doesn't own the idea I believe in this very thread), so then riddle me these things,

1) If feminism is about equality and you agree men should have input, then shouldn't they also have a say in critique and how things are? Not saying imposement, but this is a movement to bring up issues that should be discussed, so wouldn't it be better to all sides sit down and look at these things and issues?
2) To your feminine comment earlier, femininity is associate with weaker/lesser to a degree by society, doesn't mean that everyone thinks every woman is that way. Not to mention femininity isn't a bad thing, since both males and females share both masculine and feminine traits. Also, masculine traits are also viewed as irrational and other things, angry and whatnot. So, if feminism is about equality of the sexes, why focus on just women? I'd understand brining up issues that regard women more, but this is no more a campaign for citizenship rights anymore, but brining up other issues and from what I've seen, haven't been living up to what their legacy would imply.

I respect your civility though.

Joker said:

Sorry, I was in a rush and family irl stuff. But what I meant to say is that in some aspects it's better left to women? ie like abortion stuff?
Though I feel feminism could be beneficial for men too, actually.

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Feminism can't benefit men because it is entirely focused on women. It's a movement that constantly paints men negatively, some intentionally and others not intentionally. Hell, someone in this very thread just described the entire male gender as "oppressors". This is ignoring the numerous other inequalities in the movement that have also been brought up numerous times here. You can't have equality if you're focus is only on the disparities against one group.

Why should abortion be left entirely to women? I mean, I don't agree with it in most circumstances anyway, but while ultimately the final call has to be the woman's since she's carrying the baby, a man present in the relationship should still have every right to have his say since it's his child too.

Because feminists are always demanding more men in nursing, teaching and social care. I also love their recent campaigns focusing on the huge disparity between male and female suicide rates. Not to mention them demanding men get a fairer look in when it comes to child care after marriages break down. Also related to courts I hear they want harsher sentencing when on trial.

Feminism is about female issues and always has been, not so much equality any more now that women are you know - equal.

Also before you put me down as another alt righter, feminism absolutely still has a place in the world (even the western world where women do have at least equal opportunities). Just wish there were more Christina Hoff Sommers and less Anita Sarkeesians at it's forefront. If that were the case it might actually be achieving things right now.

As a woman (because somehow I have to preface my thoughts with this to have feminists pay attention to me) feminism has never helped me in any fashion since birth, and I'm hitting 28 this year. Modern feminism, and women, are two completely different groups of completely different people. They do not speak for one another and at this rate probably never should.

Individuals are strong based on their own merits and force of heart/will. If I'm abused in the workplace, in public, at school, in gaming, or online, it's my responsibility to deal with and overcome it. That's got nothing to do with gender or identity in any fashion. It's basic human function. It's a single human's responsibility to make sure they succeed in the places they want to be.

I'll clarify
Feminism can benefit men in that young boys are often taught that anything deemed as "girly" (ie, overtly showing emotions, being sensitive, being nurturing) are just women's things that she should not do, this is harmful to men.
It's harmful in that now society thinks men can and should "just get over" or "man up" with any issues they face. Men can be abused, yet how many men are open about their abuse? They aren't because they will be ridiculed instead of helped, and that's not right.

With abortion, I think it's mainly a women's issue because it's a woman's choice about her body that's being effected. Sure, if there are supportive men and OBGYN men who perform it/know about it they should def help!

Also, if a woman is trying to use feminism to paint men negatively, she is not using it right. I believe that feminism is about empowering women to be all they can be, and changing society's toxic view that womanly/girly things are inferior.

There is a distinction between Feminism the concept, and people who call themselves Feminist. If you are asking my opinion about Feminism the concept, then I support it. If you are talking about people who call themselves Feminist and advocate for Feminism, then my opinion is more mixed on the matter.

If you look at the History of Feminism, it has done much to help women out. Feminism has helped change laws to ensure that Women are treated as equal to Men.

Now, as stated earlier, my issue is not with Feminism but with Feminist. For example, there was backslash from Feminist when people didn't like the new Ghostbusters movie. They argued that Men didn't like it, because they were sexist. There is too much of a knee-jerk reaction, and there is no way to force people to go see a movie that don't want to see.

Another problem I have is when Feminist complain about Sexism in video games, but they don't work to create their own video games. Maybe create a video game that has your ideals you want to see in Female Heroines?

As a person who has sometimes engaged in creative writing, one of the issues I've also had with Feminist is in regards to how a Female character is dressed. The issue I have is that Feminist have a tendency to see any woman dress sexy in fiction as a way to appeal to men. When, in fact, women could dress sexy as they are proud of their body and want to show it off. I would point to Star Trek: The Original Series. It can out in the 60s, and the women wore miniskirts. It was a form of empowerment as, during the 50s, women wore long skirts. Just watch the Donna Reed Show which aired from 1958 to 1966, and notice how the women on there wear long skirts. Fast forward to today, and miniskirts aren't the symbol of female empowerment. It is appears to be pants.

Finally, Feminism is just too individualist right now. If you asked 100 Feminist their opinion on a subject, you will get 100 different answers. It is hard to be a Feminist when no matter what you do, some Feminist will argue you did nothing wrong, but another group will claim you are sexist.

However, despite that, I do agree that Feminism does have a place in today's society. I just think that Feminist are barking up the wrong tree. They should be more focused on ending sexual harassment, encouraging women to ask for better pay, and be less condescending when talking to men about Feminism (Just to name a few examines). Calling a person sexist is just going to make them become defensive. It is basic psychology here.

gimmepie said:

Why should abortion be left entirely to women? I mean, I don't agree with it in most circumstances anyway, but while ultimately the final call has to be the woman's since she's carrying the baby, a man present in the relationship should still have every right to have his say since it's his child too.

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Chiming in wholly and entirely on this alone: I think what joker meant to say was, "Women should be in charge of making laws about abortions."

In terms of actually choosing to have an abortion, obviously the couple as a whole should make a decision. In terms of the laws regarding abortion and women's health in general, I think women should be making the decision there. Just as I believe men should be making decisions exclusively for men's health. To me, it's never made sense that male politicians are making decisions about women's health laws.

Trev said:

Chiming in wholly and entirely on this alone: I think what joker meant to say was, "Women should be in charge of making laws about abortions."

In terms of actually choosing to have an abortion, obviously the couple as a whole should make a decision. In terms of the laws regarding abortion and women's health in general, I think women should be making the decision there. Just as I believe men should be making decisions exclusively for men's health. To me, it's never made sense that male politicians are making decisions about women's health laws.

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Yeah like that! Like I said I've been unclear because I am sick today, but I'll try and leave replying for when I'm better

Idk if I posted here already but
my opinion is pretty much:
Feminism is a good thing, but a lot of feminists take it too far or advocate for things I don't approve of etc. so kinda the same as a few other people in the thread

Edit: A few notes; I think being concerned about a group not trying to help everybody is valid, but I think that equality for everyone is the end goal, not the means to that goal. Blacks got the right to vote first, and then women, and then LGBT+ people got their respective rights. We gotta take it one step at a time. Trying to get everyone there at the same time isn't going to accomplish anything, as nice as that would be.

2. I do think that concerns about men are also valid, but at the same time it's not quite as urgent. If a man says that a woman raped him, noone will believe him because "women don't rape people", which is entirely untrue. It might not be quite as common, but it does happen and it is an issue that should be addressed at some point.

3. Consent is kinda tricky because there's a lot of loopholes when it comes to that, such as asking someone multiple times so they give in, getting them to consent to something smaller and then proceeding to do things they didn't intend, etc.
I think it's important that we teach people that it's ok to say no, and we need to teach people how to get out of situations like that (safe words are a good example, if you want someone to stop, you say it and if they don't then that would be counted as sexual assault). I don't think people who explicitly consent to the act that the other person is doing, and make no action to attempt to get out of that situation, that shouldn't be counted as sexual assault.

4. Finally, feminism is fine but I really hate it when people generalize, saying all men are bad, etc. because that's simply not true. We should stop bashing everybody for what a few people do.

I'm for equality of rights and duties of individuals under the law (because that's what each and every one of us are: individuals).

I'm not for some supposed equality of any specific group of people with a certain immutable trait or attribute that's used for the purposes of identity politics and tribalism. And it's sad that feminism became that very thing.

"Feminism" is a broad term used to refer to a variety of different ideologies. Some of these are good, some of these are neither good nor bad, and some are bad. In the broadest sense, feminism is about advocacy for women's issues, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that on its own, just like there's nothing wrong with advocacy for men's issues on its own.

There's only one thing I can really say about feminism as a whole: words have meanings, and the fact that feminism isn't called egalitarianism also has meaning. I think saying anything more than this would be making generalizations about a collection of ideologies that vary greatly and in some cases are even contradictory. If you want my thoughts about an individual ideology, about individual feminists, or about things some feminists say, I can offer my thoughts on those, but I don't think it would be fair to say any more about "feminism" as a whole.

I will note that I've had bad experiences with certain feminists in the past and that this obviously colors my opinions on the subject greatly. Take that as you will.

Women and men deserve an equal chance at happiness. We should all have equality of opportunity - not outcome - throughout life.

3rd/4th Wave Feminism today has stripped the original of its meaning. It would take too long to explain all of the issues with modern feminism - but it is undermining our society in a very dangerous way.

As for abortion issues -
Why do headlines always say "Beyonce's new twin babies in this pregnant photo!" - "Chelsea Clinton pregnant with second child" instead of "twin feti" and "a collection of cells"?

We selectively humanize things. At some point there needs to be a drawn line for when something is considered a human. The scientific consensus is that it is a human being when it is formed - just in an embryotic phase.

Now that means the government has an obligation to stop abortions if it has an obligation to protect the life of its citizens - which it does.

HOWEVER - in personal philosophy, most rationalists/objectivists/et al. would say that one ought to do the best thing possible for their success. This would require that - should killing the child be beneficial to you because your life would be ruined by it, you should have an abortion. Then, however, I also think that the problem here is some people say "oh I don't think I'd be a good parent / the child wouldn't have a good life" - People don't have the right to decide the death of other people, even if they're an embryo. It's a very complicated issue. When I was in high school I was very "pro-choice," but now as I understand the issue/logic/science more of both sides, I'm generally pro-life except for cases where it is very clear that the mother ought to have a right (incest, stillborn, rape, etc.).

Just a reminder that this thread isn't to discuss the issue of abortion itself and we shouldn't go into it beyond any relationship the topic has to feminism.

In all honesty, I like reading stuff about feminists, just cuz it shows me tomboys too can be real jerks.

I mean, telling people they shouldn't be a certain way cuz its 'weak'? Or 'pleases a man'? I doubt thats a nice way to treat people....

I'd say leave people alone and let them like what they want. Still, i'm happy these fundemental feminists exist. Someone needs to show that being a person who appraises violence in media and dressing in a darker manner surely isn't 'butterflies and rainbows'.

If the feminists can be those people, so be it, they have a good reason for existing for this very reason.

.....though i feel awful other people have to be picked on for being 'girly' just so i feel better about myself too though i'm not sure that makes me sound like a good person why am i so insecure :(