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Gender

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pastelspectre

Memento Mori★
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  • To be fair, I will admit I shop for more "boys" clothes than "girls" clothes, but its only because they are more comfortable and cozy because yknow..big bewbs >w>; sorry eep but yeah i think target or walmart was getting rid of their seperate sections or something so thats satisfying.
     
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  • I'm personally nonbinary, meaning I don't feel either man or woman, I identify as agender.
    I'm not sure how I feel about gender, I feel like it's a social construct, and if people stick strictly to it it could be harmful for people who feel they don't fit their assigned gender (like me)
    Like, I'm only out to one person irl, I'd be a laughing stock if I told anyone I'm agender.
     
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    Women are women and men are men. You can't fight this at all. When your young you can think bs but as times go by the urges and needs of your body out weighs your opinion. You can not fight this at all. Doctors will even tell you this.
     
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  • Women are women and men are men. You can't fight this at all. When your young you can think bs but as times go by the urges and needs of your body out weighs your opinion. You can not fight this at all. Doctors will even tell you this.

    You don't seem to understand the difference between sex and gender. It's been brought up numerous times in this thread now, so I suggest you double check that.

    Anyway, gender is not about opinion. It's an intrinsic thing. That's why there's numerous trans and gender fluid adults all over the world. They're not fighting who they are, they're not pretending and their physical urges have nothing to do with it.

    Any doctor who tries to tell you that gender dysphoria is something you should struggle against instead of embrace, is a doctor who should be stripped of their medical licence.
     
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  • Anyway, gender is not about opinion. It's an intrinsic thing. That's why there's numerous trans and gender fluid adults all over the world. They're not fighting who they are, they're not pretending and their physical urges have nothing to do with it.

    Fair enough. I dabbed into some research. Some people are hesitant to embrace their feelings to transition due to: 1. Fear of social criticism 2. Religious circumstances (Deuteronomy 22:5, 23:1) 3. The sheer cost of the transition. What is your advice to the manque individuals who face these limitations?
     

    pastelspectre

    Memento Mori★
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  • I feel bad for them. I think they should be able to do what they want and feel comfortable in their own body. My last boyfriend was severely against surgery for transition because he lost a close friend to it, but I still disliked he was against it. I think people should be able to do what they want. My new s/o now is probably going to get top surgery eventually, and I will support them no matter what they do. I think people should do what they want and as long as they are not harming anybody, what's the issue?
     
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  • Fair enough. I dabbed into some research. Some people are hesitant to embrace their feelings to transition due to: 1. Fear of social criticism 2. Religious circumstances (Deuteronomy 22:5, 23:1) 3. The sheer cost of the transition. What is your advice to the manque individuals who face these limitations?

    1. Don't let society pressure you out of doing something you need to do. Anyone criticising your choice to transition is the one with problem. You're not.

    2. What's more important to you, your faith or yourself? Do you really think your God would have made you the way you are if they had a problem with transgender people?

    3. The best I can offer is "save". It is wrong that people are held back from transitioning, something I think is an essential procedure for many people, by financial status. It's not an elective surgery in the same sense as things like breast implants or nose jobs, the government should help people in need get the surgery.
     

    Her

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    Fair enough. I dabbed into some research. Some people are hesitant to embrace their feelings to transition due to: 1. Fear of social criticism 2. Religious circumstances (Deuteronomy 22:5, 23:1) 3. The sheer cost of the transition. What is your advice to the manque individuals who face these limitations?

    I didn't really have an interest in posting in here but I'll relent, I guess. I don't think gimmepie can really adequately help in that regard, no offense intended. I'm just far more equipped than he is on the matter.

    I plan to do gender transition sometime relatively soon, but I guess that definition of 'soon' is up in the air and only known by God herself. There's not really any advice that can cover every person - it's a very tricky thing and relies on what the person themselves consider transitioning. Do they want surgery? Do they want hormones? Do they just want to start dressing as the other gender? No matter the case, the biggest barrier for most is money first and social pressure/issues/etc second. The trans community tends to be one associated with poverty before starting transitioning, let alone afterwards. I believe hormones are covered in New Zealand, but the required psychiatric evaluations aren't covered and they are very hefty prices in themselves, particularly when those specialising in gender are few in NZ and Australasia in general.

    But I'd say the biggest issue outside of finances and where the best advice can be given comes with 'passing'. For those who aren't aware, passing means trying to appear as 'authentic' as possible in the pursuit of presenting yourself as the gender you feel you really are. In short, trying to appear as a cisgender person. That's a technical term for anyone who was assigned their gender at birth and still identify as that gender. Doctors called you male and you still stand by that, basically. So you understand the issues for those transitioning who do not look like the typical idea of masculinity/femininity, and the pressure on those involved to confirm and some would say assimilate. This is particularly pushed on those pursuing female gender reassignment as well.

    It's a tricky subject. The best advice I can give is that people be aware of the pressures placed on them and go with what feels right. Shaming those for falling into the pressures of appearing feminine or masculine during transitioning just reinforces things. Sometimes people don't want to be trailblazers and take one for the team and I can't say I blame them in the slightest, given that I want many, many surgeries to achieve my goals. At the same time, I praise those who don't go through the rigmarole of trying to appear as cis as possible. They're the kind of people I want to be like but I know I'd be happier doing my own thing.

    In terms of real medical advice, a lot of trans people underestimate the length of time it takes for hormones to have realistic effect and are woefully undereducated on the processes that take place. It's a bit troubling.
    There are various hormones that are available, since some people do not respond to certain kinds. My favourite piece of trivia is that there is one kind of estrogen hormone that is taken from horse piss. Breasts do not grow instantaneously and they will not likely grow much at all. Penis size doesn't shrink but testicle size will. Your voice will not be altered, that is something you have to work on yourself. Stuff like that is crucial info. But I think most people could do with a decent understanding of the medical trials that are necessary, if only to dispel the common belief that someone can just enter a hospital one day and exit the next day instantaneously altered.
     
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  • I didn't really have an interest in posting in here but I'll relent, I guess. I don't think gimmepie can really adequately help in that regard, no offense intended. I'm just far more equipped than he is on the matter.

    I plan to do gender transition sometime relatively soon, but I guess that definition of 'soon' is up in the air and only known by God herself. There's not really any advice that can cover every person - it's a very tricky thing and relies on what the person themselves consider transitioning. Do they want surgery? Do they want hormones? Do they just want to start dressing as the other gender? No matter the case, the biggest barrier for most is money first and social pressure/issues/etc second. The trans community tends to be one associated with poverty before starting transitioning, let alone afterwards. I believe hormones are covered in New Zealand, but the required psychiatric evaluations aren't covered and they are very hefty prices in themselves, particularly when those specialising in gender are few in NZ and Australasia in general.

    But I'd say the biggest issue outside of finances and where the best advice can be given comes with 'passing'. For those who aren't aware, passing means trying to appear as 'authentic' as possible in the pursuit of presenting yourself as the gender you feel you really are. In short, trying to appear as a cisgender person. That's a technical term for anyone who was assigned their gender at birth and still identify as that gender. Doctors called you male and you still stand by that, basically. So you understand the issues for those transitioning who do not look like the typical idea of masculinity/femininity, and the pressure on those involved to confirm and some would say assimilate. This is particularly pushed on those pursuing female gender reassignment as well.

    It's a tricky subject. The best advice I can give is that people be aware of the pressures placed on them and go with what feels right. Shaming those for falling into the pressures of appearing feminine or masculine during transitioning just reinforces things. Sometimes people don't want to be trailblazers and take one for the team and I can't say I blame them in the slightest, given that I want many, many surgeries to achieve my goals. At the same time, I praise those who don't go through the rigmarole of trying to appear as cis as possible. They're the kind of people I want to be like but I know I'd be happier doing my own thing.

    In terms of real medical advice, a lot of trans people underestimate the length of time it takes for hormones to have realistic effect and are woefully undereducated on the processes that take place. It's a bit troubling.
    There are various hormones that are available, since some people do not respond to certain kinds. My favourite piece of trivia is that there is one kind of estrogen hormone that is taken from horse piss. Breasts do not grow instantaneously and they will not likely grow much at all. Penis size doesn't shrink but testicle size will. Your voice will not be altered, that is something you have to work on yourself. Stuff like that is crucial info. But I think most people could do with a decent understanding of the medical trials that are necessary, if only to dispel the common belief that someone can just enter a hospital one day and exit the next day instantaneously altered.

    Interesting. Is there anything you can tell the trans community regarding the religious objections? gimmepie seems to imply that their God doesn't truly have a problem with how they identify themselves because he "made" them that way. Assuming you agree, can you by any chance clarify the true meaning of the seemingly anti-trans verses?
     
    Last edited:

    Her

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    Interesting. Is there anything you can tell the trans community regarding the religious objections? gimmepie seems to imply that their God doesn't truly have a problem with how they identify themselves because he "made" them that way. Assuming you agree, can you by any chance clarify the true meaning of the seemingly anti-trans verses?

    I'm kind of out of touch with the Bible since leaving Catholicism, so I'm not gonna act like I can argue scripture competently. Same goes for the Quran, which I have zero first hand experience with, unlike my previous years in Catholicism. I've only sparingly read the parts of the Bible which apply to Judaism, so... you can see I'm not really one to make any judgement calls about gender and the Abrahamic religions.

    All I can say is do your research, listen to various interpretations and decide where you want to take your faith. It shouldn't mean 'all or nothing', you can have your cake and eat it too. If you believe God loves you no matter what, then I'd imagine that's all you would need. At the end of the day I don't think anything else is important but your idea of your relationship with your God. But if you make the decision to leave your faith, then that's the decision you made for your health and that was the right choice as well.
     
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  • Fair enough. I dabbed into some research. Some people are hesitant to embrace their feelings to transition due to: 1. Fear of social criticism 2. Religious circumstances (Deuteronomy 22:5, 23:1) 3. The sheer cost of the transition. What is your advice to the manque individuals who face these limitations?

    Deuteronomy 22:5 is

    A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.

    Wouldn't it make more sense for transgender people to transition because of this verse? If you take transgender people at their word that their body does not reflect their gender, then pre-transition they are a woman in man's clothing or a man in woman's clothing. It stands to reason that the belief that Deuteronomy 22:5 should deter transgender people from transitioning only makes sense if you believe that a trans-man is actually a woman and a trans-woman is actually a man. If you speak to transgender people, you'd find that in their understanding of themselves, that is not the case.

    Deuteronomy 23:1 is

    No one who has been emasculated by crushing or cutting may enter the assembly of the Lord.

    You might think that means heaven, but you'd be pressed to learn a bit more about historical Israelite society. At least more than one source indicate that "assembly of the Lord" refers to the political life of the nations of Israel. If you read 23:2 this makes a lot more sense. Does being born a bastard mean you cannot be a Jew? Of course not. But being a bastard prevented people from exercising certain political rights in many societies, so it makes more sense to interpret "assembly of God" as the political society of the Israelite nations.

    I don't think either of those verses strongly prescribes transitioning.
     

    Her

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    Remembered something - I recall reading in (maybe) 2014 about how Deuteronomy 22:5 may likely be in reference to pagan rituals at the time. Much less to do with the actual idea of 'male & female' and the divide between them, but actually about God coming down on idolatry and false worship. One such ritual involved men dressing as the goddesses and becoming prostitutes in her temple, in service of a false god. Naturally this was one of the most open and some would consider vulgar aspects of paganism and so it was considered necessary to create a separation between the Israelites and pagan culture.
     
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  • My last boyfriend was severely against surgery for transition because he lost a close friend to it, but I still disliked he was against it. I think people should do what they want and as long as they are not harming anybody, what's the issue?

    The fact that your last boyfriend was against transition seems to imply that it is indeed hurting him. I suppose you did not respect his opinion. Hopefully, you two can come to a more satisfying understanding someday.
     

    pastelspectre

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  • The fact that your last boyfriend was against transition seems to imply that it is indeed hurting him. I suppose you did not respect his opinion. Hopefully, you two can come to a more satisfying understanding someday.
    ..really? i respected his opinion, but i can't help who i turn out to be ffs. whoever i turn out to be is not something i can control or help. that fact you say i did not respect his opinion pisses me off. like, nope. and i don't know. maybe we can, maybe we can't. he's mainly against genderfluid labels and cis labels. things like that because he doesn't think those are real, but *shrug* i think they are.
     
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  • ..really? i respected his opinion, but i can't help who i turn out to be ffs. whoever i turn out to be is not something i can control or help. that fact you say i did not respect his opinion pisses me off. like, nope. and i don't know. maybe we can, maybe we can't. he's mainly against genderfluid labels and cis labels. things like that because he doesn't think those are real, but *shrug* i think they are.

    Oh, my bad. I must have taken the freedom I have over my own identity for granted. I appreciate the clarification. The concept of gender identity has never been easy for me to understand. Labels do exist, but they are much less noticeable to some than others. In my case, gender identity has been largely overshadowed by the analysis of my moral achievements. The following quote mostly sums up how I feel about myself: "The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevant. It is what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are." -Mewtwo (Pokemon - The First Movie). Obviously, that quote isn't 100% accurate. There will always be "circumstances of... birth" that affect me one way or another, but I believe that the only meaningful way I can see myself lies within my will to do what's right (or wrong). Maybe I underestimate the value of my appearance. I shall know when the time comes.

    Anyway, the important thing is that I'm sorry about the assumption. Again, I wish you luck. Thank you.
     

    Satanael

    Living is Hell
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  • Personally, gender means nothing to me. I identify as agender, I see it as nothing more than societal standards and stereotypes. However, I've no qualms identifying with male pronouns as I am physically male. I have friends that are Trans, being referred to as different names because their birth names are gendered, etc.

    I personally don't understand most of the modern gender issues, so I assume it's just something I don't experience.
     

    DarumaLuge

    Pokemaniac
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  • I am transgender. Was born male, but nope not male as it turns out :v

    And yeah, it's really stupid how we teach kids that there are "boy toys" and "girl toys." Like, does it matter? I think an even worse argument is that pink is a girls color, and so on.

    An interesting fact is that, back in the 50s, pink was considered a masculine color, while blue was the color representing women.
     

    DarumaLuge

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  • It's clear I am biologically female, since I have female sex organs and thus have proof that I was born female. But people who believe they don't belong to a certain gender category believe that they don't fit into one psychologically. They believe that gender should not be a label, and that people shouldn't act according to what media tells them about how a certain those of a certain gender should act in public. People who are transgender are born male or female, but have a mind of the opposite sex. We're all different either way, some of us believe it's very clear of what our gender is, some people still question the existence of gender labeling, and some people believe that there is no gender, but that we were just born with different looking body parts, if that makes any sense...

    I'm someone who has a very clear idea about my gender, but I don't judge anyone else for thinking differently. Anyone could be anything. I used to think Bugsy was a girl and that Cynthia was a male in drag. Now I know I shouldn't judge by appearances and that people are free to make their own decisions on how to present themselves.
     
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