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xy is already a lot better than bw2 because, while there is centralization, you don't need to use the best ou pokemon to be competitive, which i think was the case in bw2, especially pre lando ban [as evidenced by any ladder battles]. i think that we could have a really fun metagame on our hands once mega kanga, mega lucario and manaphy are banned, to be honest.

If it's one thing I realized, it's that hyper-offensive won't cut it anymore. I tried to do a few battles today and my team, which had previously gone nearly undefeated at the beginning of gen 6, was now losing almost every battle. Everyone had the capability to take every attack I threw out, and then proceed to counter. Man, looks like my team is in need for some heavy revisions.

@Topic:
I'm not too sure about the size of the impact of faeries nor that the balanced state of things was caused by them, as compared to what certain new threats (Talonflame in particular) and the buff to Ghost/Dark did. The fact that things like Kanga can Sucker Punch almost anything with impunity makes it tougher to take down, Gengar wrecks things that would check it in the past with Shadow Ball (Scizor and the steel-buddies), CBTar can Crunch without being worried that Ferrothorn sets up free spikes on it, et cetera. It does have that "new generation" feel still though, where practically anything goes because you are still trying to figure out what works and what not. Seems like this meta is favouring bulky offense a bit more than it has in the past.

I'd be a lot more excited about faeries if it wasn't for the fact that if you for instance want a Fairy-type with a base speed > 100 you are stuck with Whimsicott and Dedenne, heh.

Username: Pokedra
Answer to current topic: Nintendo surprised me, they had a massive turd on their hands (BW2) and they managed to make it playable again. Greater balance between offensive and defensive threats, weather nerf, Assault Vest, excellent new additions and the special nukes nerf were all greatly needed. Now you can't use Keldeo in the rain and OHKO with Blissey with Hyper Beam. So yeah X/Y is not perfect and probably not as good as DPPt OU but it finds a decent balance, allows some creativity and is much better than the crap that came before.
Experience in competitive battling: Gen IV-VI, got to #1 on BW2 UU, #25~ on DPPt OU.
Favourite Pokemon(s): Kingdra, Salamence, Heracross, Mespirit, Grovyle
Preferred playstyle/core: Bulky offense

Gengarite being banned was probably the right move, as it could get really out of hand quickly.

Thinking more about the balance of this generations metagame, i feel pretty good towards it. Meaning i feel that multiple strategies will be more viable than they were in BW/BW2. I am very excited to see how stall as a strategy will progress/function in this meta.

I still feel that it is a little soon to predict how things will turn out, but then again you can never be 100% sure.

The funny thing is, this all came about with people largely using Mega Gengar outside of what it's really good at. Played properly alongside a strong physical threat, it can open up holes to exploit. IMO it's just a kneejerk reaction by Smogon.

Also, from seeing what Pokedra has said, I'm a little glad I stopped playing through Platinum. BW/BW2 sounds like it was a major fusterkluck to me.

IMO it's just a kneejerk reaction by Smogon.

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rofl

and welcome to the club, trainernico, alexial and pokie :] ugh i felt sooo lazy to add you guys :x

Ársa said:

The funny thing is, this all came about with people largely using Mega Gengar outside of what it's really good at. Played properly alongside a strong physical threat, it can open up holes to exploit. IMO it's just a kneejerk reaction by Smogon.

Also, from seeing what Pokedra has said, I'm a little glad I stopped playing through Platinum. BW/BW2 sounds like it was a major fusterkluck to me.

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BW2 was a metagame for the kiddies to show off who could nuke the other team better. It's no surprise most of the top battlers moved to different tiers where balance could actually be found (UU/RU/NU/even Ubers was better rofl). I mean sure it's cool seeing "It's not very effective! Skarmory lost 100% of it's health" but it gets old rather quickly.

Anyways, the Mega Gengar ban indeed felt like a kneejerk reaction. It's deadly but lack of power and a turn needed to MEvo prevents it crossing the line I feel. I think some people just don't want to deal with it at all hence the ban.

Pokedra said:

Anyways, the Mega Gengar ban indeed felt like a kneejerk reaction. It's deadly but lack of power and a turn needed to MEvo prevents it crossing the line I feel. I think some people just don't want to deal with it at all hence the ban.

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IKR, actually fast Pokemon like Greninja and Jolteon can outspeed Mega Gengar(provided that Gengar has a Modest nature) and if Gengar has a speed boosting Nature, he will outspeed the Pokemon mentioned above but will lack some power, so the two Pokemon could take a hit before retaliating back. That's what I learned as of now, but the Perish trapping set looks deadly TBH.

Ársa said:

The funny thing is, this all came about with people largely using Mega Gengar outside of what it's really good at. Played properly alongside a strong physical threat, it can open up holes to exploit. IMO it's just a kneejerk reaction by Smogon.

Also, from seeing what Pokedra has said, I'm a little glad I stopped playing through Platinum. BW/BW2 sounds like it was a major fusterkluck to me.

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that's the exact reason they banned it

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-ban-of-gengarite.3494085/

No one really had a problem when Chandelure was banned iirc, so I don't understand why a stronger, faster, better typed version of it is so upsetting. Sure it has to mega evolve, so? With it's power and already high speed, it shouldn't have any trouble picking something off.

Ooka said:

No one really had a problem when Chandelure was banned iirc, so I don't understand why a stronger, faster, better typed version of it is so upsetting. Sure it has to mega evolve, so? With it's power and already high speed, it shouldn't have any trouble picking something off.

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Mega Gengar is not more powerful. Unlike Chandelure it doesn't have higher powered STAB moves to abuse so Lure actually comes off stronger in most cases. Plus Lure can equip itself with LO or Specs, even Scarf if you want more speed. He is faster then Lure but he was banned because he can trap walls, walls are something even Chandelure can outspeed and he packs more of a punch. Gengar-M fails to kill more times then it should. And that turn to MEvo gives your opponent a chance to figure out which Pokemon you want to trap, the loss of Levitate is also significant.

So yeah
- Loss of Levitate / less switching in opportunities
- MEvo turn
- Lack of power

It's brilliant but it's not broken, most of the good players will be able to handle it. The majority just don't want to deal with it.

I have to agree with Smogon with this one. It's not capable of sweeping, but it does get rid of counters very well. Once it mega-evolves, it will have Shadow Tag on the switch-in. There's not much you can do then. If the right player got it, it would be nearly unstoppable. Just trap your sweeper's counter, and you just won the game.

To be honest, if you have one counter to a Pokemon that can otherwise sweep your entire team then you deserve to lose. A well-built team needs to address all threats. Not just with a counter but a check (revenge-killer, phazer) and even good-play. The problem with M-Gengar is that he'll have to MEvo before he can trap, it then falls on you to play well so you don't get trapped.

Well, Mega Gengar is noticeably more powerful than Scarf Chandelure, and doesn't have to worry about staying in while locked into one move. (Though, Chandelure has stronger secondary STAB moves.)

252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 408-480 (156.3 - 183.9%)
252 SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 360-426 (137.9 - 163.2%)

Still, Mega Gengar can switch in frequently and trap more Pokemon without worrying about a SR weakness. It also has better typing and a better movepool (Focus Blast, Thunderbolt, Perish Song, etc.). Not to mention it can successfully trap more than half of the metagame. Also, it's a bit ridiculous to say that Mega Gengar lacks power. Of course it can't KO everything easily without super effective moves; it has to pick off threats.

Disclaimer: I personally haven't battled against Mega Gengar, but it seems pretty darn broken on paper. Shadow Tag alone is downright uncompetitive anyway.

Antebellum said:

that's the exact reason they banned it

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-ban-of-gengarite.3494085/

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Yes, I read that when it was released. As I said, I think it's more of a knee jerk reaction by Smogon. It certainly isn't overcentralising (it's not in the top 3 most-used Mega's iirc) and there are a plethora of pokemon this Gen that it cannot switch into and beat 1-on-1.

Yes, when I said used effectively alongside a pokemon that appreciates MeGar taking out its threats, it is a powerful tool. But that can be said about any team with a viable combination. Magnezone could trap and kill all steels that resisted a SD Chomp's sweep. While MeGar does this better, essentially it's the same idea.

Smogon talks about 'access to all these amazing moves'. Have we all of a sudden forgot that pokemon only gets 4 moves? Yes Shadow Tag + Perish song seems OP, but MeGar is frail, and for this to work effectively you need to run a combination of Perish Song + Protect + Sub/Disable + Shadow Ball just to make it work. All of a sudden, MeGar can't hit all these threats (like Mega Kangaskhan, who KO's with EQ now that it no longer has levitate).

Trapping itself isn't uncompetitive but Magnezone and pursuit are incredibly one dimensional. SD Chomp can get revenge killed if it's against an offensive team, while there's Hippowdon, Gliscor, Quagsire, Tangrowth, Slowbro and more guys to beat it on defense. Magnezone can't trap these Pokemon, but Mega Gengar can. I guess you could make the argument about Gothitelle and it might be better to ban Shadow Tag itself, but Mega Gengar can also get a substitute, and unlike Gothitelle, it's fast as **** and fairly strong. It's not as much of a liability to a team as Gothitelle is, and beats more pokemon, such as Heatran, without having to specialize itself to do so since its moves have fantastic coverage.

You make that argument, but again, MeGar and Luke (as example - as they both pair well together) are both easily revenge killed as well. You can't counter one point with an argument that counters your own. Magnezone need not kill Heatran for Chomp, as outside of ScarfTran (which cannot stay in once it has KO'd Maggy) it is outsped and KO'd by Chomp.

MeGar can't handle Hippowdon, Gliscor, or Quagsire either. Also, as I said before, any such moves like Substitute require MeGar to drop coverage, making the pool of pokemon that can take it on that much greater.

Ársa said:

You make that argument, but again, MeGar and Luke (as example - as they both pair well together) are both easily revenge killed as well. You can't counter one point with an argument that counters your own. Magnezone need not kill Heatran for Chomp, as outside of ScarfTran (which cannot stay in once it has KO'd Maggy) it is outsped and KO'd by Chomp.

MeGar can't handle Hippowdon, Gliscor, or Quagsire either. Also, as I said before, any such moves like Substitute require MeGar to drop coverage, making the pool of pokemon that can take it on that much greater.

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how are you going to pair them together when you can only have one megamon per team???

awolffromspace said:

Well, Mega Gengar is noticeably more powerful than Scarf Chandelure, and doesn't have to worry about staying in while locked into one move. (Though, Chandelure has stronger secondary STAB moves.)

252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 408-480 (156.3 - 183.9%)
252 SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 360-426 (137.9 - 163.2%)

Still, Mega Gengar can switch in frequently and trap more Pokemon without worrying about a SR weakness. It also has better typing and a better movepool (Focus Blast, Thunderbolt, Perish Song, etc.). Not to mention it can successfully trap more than half of the metagame. Also, it's a bit ridiculous to say that Mega Gengar lacks power. Of course it can't KO everything easily without super effective moves; it has to pick off threats.

Disclaimer: I personally haven't battled against Mega Gengar, but it seems pretty darn broken on paper. Shadow Tag alone is downright uncompetitive anyway.

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The secondary STAB is very important however, their primary role is to get rid of walls so any extra power helps. Also Lure can opt to run LO if it needs, the loss of speed is noticeable but for killing walls it's not necessary. And having used Gengar-M quite a bit, I can tell with certainty, 170 unboosted SpAtk is actually not as good as you might think. It's a bit weaker then LO Gengar, the difference is like 10% but LO Gengar wasn't exactly a powerhouse to being with. Most walls have to be quite weak before you trap and kill them, unless you can hit them for super-effective damage with STAB moves. It can get in without SR but it lacks Levitate and it's pretty measly defenses don't help either. Some walls it is meant to trap can nail him with STAB moves if you try bring him in to trap if they predict correctly. And the biggest problem remains, getting a turn to Mega evolve, something quite important as it's one less switch in which means less hazard damage, less chance of getting trapped yourself or mispredicting and losing your Gengar.

On paper, it's broken. In practice, it's really, really good but has drawbacks and can be dealt with. Once it shows itself you just need to play more cautiously, a well-played Aegislash and Talonflame can be just as good as a well-played Gengar-M.