PokeCommunity's Competitive Battling Community

[Tide]

What I'm trying to portray is that with the input of Mega's, the standard for what is OU has been buffed tremendously in a way that isn't necessarily proportional to other tiers and niches. So, yes, while just about every mega is "very powerful, but also easily countered by other Pokemon", it isn't quite so in the same way that pokemon from previous generations are. Which, I understand, is a stretch - but it is a contribution to unbalancing.

(I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself well or not. :I)

 

[.Gamer]

What I'm trying to portray is that with the input of Mega's, the standard for what is OU has been buffed tremendously in a way that isn't necessarily proportional to other tiers and niches. So, yes, while just about every mega is "very powerful, but also easily countered by other Pokemon", it isn't quite so in the same way that pokemon from previous generations are. Which, I understand, is a stretch - but it is a contribution to unbalancing.

(I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself well or not. :I)

newer gens are always going to be more powerful in case you havent noticed, it's a trend. each year nintendo puts out progressively more powerful pokemon and moves, and mechanics of the game to make gen6 better than gen 5. gen 5 than gen 4. etc. It's so that they can attract people to buy the games. you will probably never see zapdos in OU ever again because gen 5 introduced thundrous (or w/e), same with starmie, probably snorlax. A lot of older pokemon are going to get "phased out" of usage because they are in essence obsolete until gf decides to buff the for whatever reason. this doesn' really affect balance though because pokemon still have their roles within a team and a metagame. hell, freaking electivire was OU for the duration of DPP (I still don't know how...) because it had the potential to be a dangerous sweeper, even though it was a horrible pokemon and a terrible gimmick.

I'm just saying, even though pokemon get progressively stronger each gen and we get new powerful toys to play with, the game moves with it. Of course your next step is going to be bigger than your previous and that's all GF is doing. You can't base Gen 6's metagame in terms of being balanced on Gen 5 (or 4 since I'm romanticizing it, even though it was a bucket of crap for most of it's time). You have to look at it in a microcosm of itself. Is OU perfectly balanced? Hell no. Mega Lucario and Mega Kangaskhan are stupid strong, but it's not broken by any means, they each have a small handful of checks that you can use to counter them and while they may be centralizing, something is always going to be centralizing in one way or another. (It's true for every generation, go look at them and find one that isn't centralized around 3 or less pokemon).

 

[Pokedra]

I actually think they dialled down the power creep this generation, special attack nerf for one and although MEvo's look insane on paper, sometimes they hit for less then their LO non-MEvo counterparts. Most of the new Pokemon bar Aegislash/Talonflame are generally more defensively orientated and Fairy is a better defensive typing then offensively generally.

 

[Tide]

newer gens are always going to be more powerful [...]

I understand that, I'm just saying that while the overall amount of pokemon introduced don't represent this trend as drastically - Mega's do.

Mega Lucario and Mega Kangaskhan are stupid strong, but it's not broken by any means, they each have a small handful of checks that you can use to counter them and while they may be centralizing, something is always going to be centralizing in one way or another.

The way I see it, something doesn't have to be "broken" in order to be "unbalanced". I never claimed that anything was necessarily broken.

Overall, I do understand what you are saying though.

I actually think they dialled down the power creep this generation, special attack nerf for one and although MEvo's look insane on paper, sometimes they hit for less then their LO non-MEvo counterparts. Most of the new Pokemon bar Aegislash/Talonflame are generally more defensively orientated and Fairy is a better defensive typing then offensively generally.

I agree with that entirely.

On a side note, I am somewhat surprised by the amount of usage Talonflame gets. I mean, while Gale Wings is an excellent ability - it doesn't have a lot of attack (base 81) to work with and takes 50% to Stealth Rocks. (I just realized this is off-topic. I apologize in advance.)

 

[wolf]

On a side note, I am somewhat surprised by the amount of usage Talonflame gets. I mean, while Gale Wings is an excellent ability - it doesn't have a lot of attack (base 81) to work with and takes 50% to Stealth Rocks. (I just realized this is off-topic)

You don't need to adhere closely to the topic. It's only there as a conversation guide.

 

[halcyonic]

tl;dr's everywhere @_@ but yea, welcome to the club, tide :3 i havent been awfully active, ill try to, but i should be at the server more q:

also wolf, there was this official tournament you said you were gonna have, any spoilers or something? im p interested o/

EDIT: if any pokemon was to be banned, megakhan pls after double pup, returns from it hurt a lot :x q: possibly megaluke too, but im meh with that xD

 

[Ooka]

I also don't want to beat a dead horse, but I just had one more thing to say about the Gengar ban (Don't hate me :3). Yes it can be countered, and so can Blaziken *looks at Azumarill*, that shouldn't have anything to do with it being banned so much as the amount of things that "can't" beat it. Anyways that's all. xD

Mega Lucario's ability is the only reason I really see it as OP, effectively making Vacuum Wave, Aura Spere, Close Combat, Flash Cannon, etc 2x damage. Not to mention access to Swords Dance and Nasty Plot. I run this:

Lucario @ Lucarionite
252 Sp. Attack/252 Speed
Modest/Timid Nature
Vacuum Wave/Aura Sphere
Nasty Plot
Flash Cannon
Shadow Ball

Usually I go with Timid and Aura Sphere. But yeah, hard to tell if it'll get banned, again it's not that it can be countered by 1 or 2 Pokemon (Can't expect one of them on every single team in the metagame due to 1 threat [overcentralizing]) but just how much of the metagame they can run over with ease. This thing being one of those.

 

[Fomalhaut]

- Username: Fomalhaut
- Answer to current topic: I dunno about OP'd, but Mega Lucario has changed the flow of quite a few battles for me
- Experience in competitive battling: Finding various ways to have other trainers wipe the floor with me for years.
- Favourite Pokemon: Mawile, Gardevoir, Gallade, Greninja, Froslass, Breloom
- Preferred playstyle/core: Mixed.
- Extra: CCC

 

[halcyonic]

you sound rather experience, you're alright to pass, go ahead and have fun ^_^

 

[Dark Azelf]

@ Taloflame usage, i feel the 4x SR weak isnt really an issue cos all you have to do is slap Defog on something. Priority Roost, its revenge killing ability and SD make it awesome.


Agreeing with MegaLuke being bs. Id sooner face MegaGar every day of the week than MegaLuke. At least MegaGar can only hit from one side of the spectrum plus it cant boost its sp.att/att by x2 and ruin everything with Adaptability. :|

 

[champagnepapi]

Mega Lucario is broken, in my opinion. It's very fun to use, but being real, the Special Set lacks any actual solid answers, and its sweeping ability is pretty crazy thanks to Adaptability CC, a really nice 112 Base speed and strong priority, which really limits what you can revenge kill it with, even being able to plan and weaken a Scarf Garchomp/Keld or something so they die to +2 Espeed.

Mega Kang is also broken, moreso than Lucario, but I think actually playing it just speaks for itself.

 

[Tide]

@ Taloflame usage, i feel the 4x SR weak isnt really an issue cos all you have to do is slap Defog on something. Priority Roost, [...]

Ah, right - that's a good point. I completely forgot about Defog's new effects and didn't consider priority recovery.
While I see Aegislash as more of an outrageously powerful staple (comparable to Kyurem-B), I wouldn't necessarily be all that surprised if it got the ban as well.

It just has so many assets that make it really difficult to handle. With Stance Change, it can utilize 150 base defensive stats, and 150 base offensive stats - which is theoretically broken assuming the player is at least somewhat skilled. It also has King's Shield, which halves the attack of any pokemon that could attempt to hit it physically. It also has priority Shadow Sneak, which with its raw power, has the potential to wreck the many evident fast and frail pokemon; namingly the very common Protean Greninja.

 

[Ársa]

Ah, right - that's a good point. I completely forgot about Defog's new effects and didn't consider priority recovery.
While I see Aegislash as more of an outrageously powerful staple (comparable to Kyurem-B), I wouldn't necessarily be all that surprised if it got the ban as well.

It just has so many assets that make it really difficult to handle. With Stance Change, it can utilize 150 base defensive stats, and 150 base offensive stats - which is theoretically broken assuming the player is at least somewhat skilled. It also has King's Shield, which halves the attack of any pokemon that could attempt to hit it physically. It also has priority Shadow Sneak, which with its raw power, has the potential to wreck the many evident fast and frail pokemon; namingly the very common Protean Greninja.

+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 57-68 (38.5 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Greninja actually has more bulk than Starmie. Assuming Greninja retains its Dark typing, even after a SD Aegislash can only 3HKO. Without the Dark typing, it still only does ~77 - ~92% after a SD. Notice here that it's therefore vulnerable to Greninja while in Blade Form.

Similarly, a Talonflame survives a +2 Shadow Sneak with roughly ~25% health remaining, meaning even after a Brave Bird / Flare Blitz it is likely to be alive.

King's Shield is easy to play around. Non Shadow Ball variants are walled hard by common physical tanks like Gliscor and Hippowdon, who KO with STAB EQ in return. Also, Trevenant and Gourgeist can beat it 1-on-1 with WoW, or simply cripple it. Same goes for Rotom-W, while Rotom-H simply eats it alive.

 

[Tide]

Greninja actually has more bulk than Starmie. Assuming Greninja retains its Dark typing, even after a SD Aegislash can only 3HKO. Without the Dark typing, it still only does ~77 - ~92% after a SD. Notice here that it's therefore vulnerable to Greninja while in Blade Form.

It only takes one King's Shield to scout a Greninja; and remove its Dark typing. While Greninja ultimately would outperform Aegislash in that aspect due to STAB Dark Pulse overall - it still does considerable damage with an attack that has 40 base power and (in some scenarios) is resisted.
However, it appears I did underestimate Greninja's bulk.

King's Shield is easy to play around. Non Shadow Ball variants are walled hard by common physical tanks like Gliscor and Hippowdon, who KO with STAB EQ in return. Also, Trevenant and Gourgeist can beat it 1-on-1 with WoW, or simply cripple it. Same goes for Rotom-W, while Rotom-H simply eats it alive.

While the physical Aegislash is substantially more evident, not many walls come to mind when thinking of a Shadow Ball Aegislash counter (other than the obvious Blissey, and kind of Rotom-W) This would make Aegislash a colossal threat from both offensive angles - making it twice as difficult to manage under the circumstance that both sets became equally prevalent - which gives Aegislash a lot of "coverable" ground that many pokemon don't have.

Despite the fact that it is definitely able to be dealt with in multiple ways (which is a commonality shared among some Ubers), it still has many assets that could give its ban at least some consideration.

 

[Ársa]

It only takes one King's Shield to scout a Greninja; and remove its Dark typing. While Greninja ultimately would outperform Aegislash in that aspect due to STAB Dark Pulse overall - it still does considerable damage with an attack that has 40 base power and (in some scenarios) is resisted.
However, it appears I did underestimate Greninja's bulk.



While the physical Aegislash is substantially more evident, not many walls come to mind when thinking of a Shadow Ball Aegislash counter (other than the obvious Blissey, and kind of Rotom-W) This would make Aegislash a colossal threat from both offensive angles - making it twice as difficult to manage under the circumstance that both sets became equally prevalent - which gives Aegislash a lot of "coverable" ground that many pokemon don't have.

Despite the fact that it is definitely able to be dealt with in multiple ways (which is a commonality shared among some Ubers), it still has many assets that could give its ban at least some consideration.

"Coverable ground"? Comparable to most pokemon Aegislash really is a one-trick pony. Its only viable special moves are Hidden Power, Shadow Ball, and Flash Cannon. In using its priority move, it opens itself to be OHKO'd by almost everything in the metagame. It needs an SD under its belt before it can really be threatening with Shadow Sneak, and because it is so slow can easily be crippled with WoW.

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Hippowdon: 100-118 (46.5 - 54.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

A Careful Hippowdon with no SpD investment is only 2HKO'd 11% of the time by a Max SpA Quiet Aegislash. Note this is with no SpD investment, which is rare. An Impish variant running a minimum of 104 SpD EV's is only ever 3HKO'd after leftovers. Also note that commonly, Aegislash will run Brave and have Shadow Ball for pokemon such as Treveneant and Gourgiest - the physically oriented set plays far more effectively than a special one.

Shadow Ball requires dropping another moveslot. Generally, you either drop Shadow Sneak or King's Shield - either way it opens Aegislash up to being countered effectively. On the special side, pokemon like Goodra can tank hits (while resisting Sacred Sword) and KO with Flamethrower.

Honestly, there are so many pokemon that can stop Aegislash that are common in the current metagame that it really shouldn't be anywhere near being banned. Heck, Klefki can beat Aegislash 1-on-1 with Foul Play.

 

[Pokedra]

Mega Luke is insane, especially the special set which blasts past it's conventional counters. You can even run CC for Blissey since a 240 attack coming off a 350 Atk stat will still wreck 95% of the tier while Flash Cannon murders Gliscor and Hippowdon. Not sure if it's broken yet but it's by far one of the best Mega Evolutions we got.

 

[Fomalhaut]

I want to test out my new team... Anyone up for a battle? Or would this not be the appropriate place... Well, there are threads specifically for that, but, I feel that asking here gives me better odds of finding good competition, unless that is against the rules >> As to avoid getting tangential, PM me if interested, or call me out if this violates a rule.

 

[Ársa]

Mega Luke is insane, especially the special set which blasts past it's conventional counters. You can even run CC for Blissey since a 240 attack coming off a 350 Atk stat will still wreck 95% of the tier while Flash Cannon murders Gliscor and Hippowdon. Not sure if it's broken yet but it's by far one of the best Mega Evolutions we got.

Once Pokebank is released and Luke gets access to Ice Punch, even physical variants will be able to walk through normal counters like Gliscor. Luke has so many possible sets and moveset combinations it's ridiculous, and like you said conventional counters won't work largely because it has (as i stated above) offensive stats rivaling Aegislash. The speed increase was crucial for Mega Luke, as now it can outspeed the majority of the unboosted metagame.

@Formalhaut: There are no 'rules' outside of the regular PC rules. If you're looking for a battle, check the stickied link at the top of the sub forum, which will link you to the PC Showdown server. You'll be able to find people to battle there. As for online, I think there's a thread floating around here somewhere that you can post a request in.

 

[Tide]

"Coverable ground"? Comparable to most pokemon Aegislash really is a one-trick pony. Its only viable special moves are Hidden Power, Shadow Ball, and Flash Cannon. In using its priority move, it opens itself to be OHKO'd by almost everything in the metagame. It needs an SD under its belt before it can really be threatening with Shadow Sneak, and because it is so slow can easily be crippled with WoW.

A Careful Hippowdon with no SpD investment is only 2HKO'd 11% of the time by a Max SpA Quiet Aegislash. Note this is with no SpD investment, which is rare. An Impish variant running a minimum of 104 SpD EV's is only ever 3HKO'd after leftovers. Also note that commonly, Aegislash will run Brave and have Shadow Ball for pokemon such as Treveneant and Gourgiest - the physically oriented set plays far more effectively than a special one.

Shadow Ball requires dropping another moveslot. Generally, you either drop Shadow Sneak or King's Shield - either way it opens Aegislash up to being countered effectively. On the special side, pokemon like Goodra can tank hits (while resisting Sacred Sword) and KO with Flamethrower.

Honestly, there are so many pokemon that can stop Aegislash that are common in the current metagame that it really shouldn't be anywhere near being banned. Heck, Klefki can beat Aegislash 1-on-1 with Foul Play.

By "coverable ground", I was more referring to the capabilities it has with the advantageous factor of covering both offensive sides. Regardless, I, for some reason thought Aegislash got Dark Pulse. I underestimated the bulk of common walls as well. A probable reason of me associating Aegislash with brokenness is the fact that I personally have trouble stopping it - which is a result of lack of knowledge. (Still waiting to get Pokemon X this Christmas.)

It seems I was uninformed - thanks for explaining. ^__^

I do have one remaining question on this topic, however.

On the special side, pokemon like Goodra can tank hits (while resisting Sacred Sword) and KO with Flamethrower.

How does Goodra resist Sacred Sword?

Mega Luke is insane, especially the special set which blasts past it's conventional counters. You can even run CC for Blissey since a 240 attack coming off a 350 Atk stat will still wreck 95% of the tier while Flash Cannon murders Gliscor and Hippowdon. Not sure if it's broken yet but it's by far one of the best Mega Evolutions we got.

Mega Lucario is just a monster. I was about to say why but it seems Arsa already did above me. (Specific quote below)

Once Pokebank is released and Luke gets access to Ice Punch, even physical variants will be able to walk through normal counters like Gliscor. Luke has so many possible sets and moveset combinations it's ridiculous, and like you said conventional counters won't work largely because it has (as i stated above) offensive stats rivaling Aegislash. The speed increase was crucial for Mega Luke, as now it can outspeed the majority of the unboosted metagame.

Even though my mind went immediately to that, I decided to look up some opposing arguments on behalf of people who don't find Mega Lucario to be broken. My findings include this thread which made a very interesting point. If any advertising conflicts occurr, I will avoid hassles by spoilering the contents.

Spoiler:

I must say that you're jumping to conclusions just because of "OMFG CLOSE COMBAT 240 BP AND BULLET PUNCH 80 BP!"

Here are some calculations:

Adamant Lucario w/ max Atk and Life Orb using Close Combat against a 252 HP / 252 Def Impish Hippowdon:

38.10% - 45.00% damage (Average: 40,95%)

After a Swords Dance:

75.71% - 89.29% damage (fails to OHKO, even with Stealth Rock)

Now, let's assume that Mega Lucario has the same Atk stat as regular Lucario, that its item slot is compromised and that the item it has to hold doesn't give it any boosts, and use the same calculation as before, removing Life Orb from the equation and including Adaptability.

Close Combat VS Hippowdon:

39.05% - 46.19% damage (Average: 42,38%)

After a Swords Dance:

78.10% - 91.90% damage (still fails to OHKO, even with SR)

Now, I'm going to test Life Orb Lucario's ExtremeSpeed against the Hippo:

16.90% - 20.00% damage (Average: 18,33%)

And compare it to Mega Lucario's Adaptability Bullet Punch (same assumptions as before: no items, same Atk):

13.33% - 15.71% damage (Average: 14,29%)

What conclusions can we take from this?

If Lucario and Mega Lucario have the same Attack, damage from Mega Lucario's Adaptability-boosted Close Combat without any items is just slighly stronger than Lucario's Life Orb-boosted Close Combat.

As for Adaptability Bullet Punch VS ExtremeSpeed, they would deal roughly the same damage when used by Mega Lucario... but regular Lucario counts on a LO boost for its moves, ES included, so Lucario's ES wins here.

Now, the main problem with Mega Lucario: if the item slot is indeed compromised, than the only real advantage Mega Lucario will have over Lucario is a slightly stronger Close Combat without LO recoil; Lucario's other moves will all be stronger than Mega Lucario's, including the priority move... again, assuming they have the same Atk stat.

Final thoughts: will Mega Lucario break the metagame?

I think people are looking too much to Adaptability and underestimating the importance of Life Orb on Lucario; if Mega Lucario can't hold any other items and doesn't get any boosts from whatever item that is occupying its item slot, suddenly the Adaptability boost becomes considerably less impressive, only really boosting Close Combat and Bullet Punch and hurting all of Mega Lucario's other moves.

Therefore, unless Mega Lucario gains a significant increase in its Attack stat to make up for the loss of Life Orb AND has equal or higher Speed than Lucario, I can safely say Mega Lucario isn't breaking the metagame anytime soon. I'm willing to bet it's still going to be a beastly Pokémon, though, especially if Fairy turns out to be weak against Steel as rumors say.

 

[Pokedra]

Once Pokebank is released and Luke gets access to Ice Punch, even physical variants will be able to walk through normal counters like Gliscor. Luke has so many possible sets and moveset combinations it's ridiculous, and like you said conventional counters won't work largely because it has (as i stated above) offensive stats rivaling Aegislash. The speed increase was crucial for Mega Luke, as now it can outspeed the majority of the unboosted metagame.

@Formalhaut: There are no 'rules' outside of the regular PC rules. If you're looking for a battle, check the stickied link at the top of the sub forum, which will link you to the PC Showdown server. You'll be able to find people to battle there. As for online, I think there's a thread floating around here somewhere that you can post a request in.

I agree to a certain extent, you have to remember Mega-Luke has 4MSS, if you run Ice Punch you can't run Crunch which still need to hurt most Ghost-types (bar the frail ones like Gengar). I honestly think it's 4MSS is the only reason it may not broken otherwise it does indeed fit the Offensive characteristic for Uber. +2 Adamant Mega Luke always OHKO'es Max HP/Def Hippo with CC, that is borderline ludicrous power. So yeah I'm fine with Lucario-M being banned, I find him more threatening then Gengar to be honest. At least I know my team isn't getting nuked when Gengar comes out.