2016 US Presidential Elections Thread [Trump Wins]

As a member of the Dishonest Media™ who is covering the race for a newspaper (boo! hiss!), I want to comment on that. It's not that we all have decided "lol let's make Trump lose the race to sell more newspapers!", it's that Trump is... abnormal. It's hard to have a "fair and balanced" coverage when, on a side, you have a perfectly normal politician, with her pros and cons, running a perfectly normal campaign; and, next to her, a guy who knows nothing about etiquette and who keeps making outrageous, outlandish, outright dangerous and utterly unbelievable comments every day. It's hard to treat this race as a normal political debate between left and right when you have plenty of conservatives running away from the guy who is supposed to be the "conservative". It's hard to treat this race as a normal political debate when one goes out and say "maybe... Clinton... guns... stopping her... wink wink". Trump is not a normal politician running a political campaign, and that's why he gets such an abnormal coverage- because he's an abnormal candidate doing abnormal things.

Look, eight years ago, McCain said during a rally that Obama wasn't "someone to be afraid of" and that he just happened to be "someone he disagreed with on political issues". Nowadays we have Trump calling Clinton "unhinged", "the devil" and hinting that someone shoot her. That's the difference.

Clinton isn't exactly a conventional left wing candidate either. She's a bought candidate and has been on the wrong side of history consistently through her career. Sanders should be the Democrat nominee, not a war hawk who constantly lies, "misremembers", takes big money from interest groups and patronizes minorities with ridiculous hot sauce stunts.
 
Clinton isn't exactly a conventional left wing candidate either. She's a bought candidate and has been on the wrong side of history consistently through her career. Sanders should be the Democrat nominee, not a war hawk who constantly lies, "misremembers", takes big money from interest groups and patronizes minorities with ridiculous hot sauce stunts.

In other words, she is a conventional centre-left candidate. Because I'm afraid you can list all the democratic candidates all th way back to 1988 and you'll see many if not all of these problems.

I mean, I hope you can see the difference between "candidate I think is too moderate/gets money from rich people/looks untrustworthy/has some policy positions I disagree with" and "candidate who suggests murdering a political rival during a rally".
 
In other words, she is a conventional centre-left candidate. Because I'm afraid you can list all the democratic candidates all th way back to 1988 and you'll see many if not all of these problems.

I mean, I hope you can see the difference between "candidate I think is too moderate/gets money from rich people/looks untrustworthy/has some policy positions I disagree with" and "candidate who suggests murdering a political rival during a rally".

She's not centre-left. She is acting that way now because of Sanders' popularity. Give her a year and we'll have "Super Predators need to be brought to heel" Hill back again.

Arguably, Clinton's remark in May 2008 rg. Bobby Kennedy's assassination and the chance it could happen to Obama as justification to her not dropping out is on par with Donald Trump's comment about second amendment activists stopping the appointment of judges (I'm not sure if he was suggesting the assassination of Clinton or full scale armed retribution, both are not good things to suggest)

Edit: (Forgot to address this) I do understand there is a difference between a bad candidate and outright suggesting unstable people should take up arms. I think Trump and Clinton are both terrible people, but I also think they might be in it together. They've been friends for decades, and up until 2010, Trump was a long time Democrat and donor to both the party and the Clinton foundation. Clinton bombed hard against Trump, and we all know how dirty the DNC played things against Sanders. It stands to reason that she'd need an easy opponent to win and she has that in Trump, a man who seems to be deliberately sabotaging his own campaign time and time again.
 
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I'm worried regardless. Clinton has an absolutely abysmal track record of standing for racist policies, against gay rights, massive war mongering and heavy corruption. I don't want her dragging my country into another illegal war for profit, I don't want my friends who are serving dying for her bottom line.

On the flipside, Trump is Trump. I don't really need to explain why he worries me.

This is pretty much my worry, on one hand Clinton could be for (or at the least keep) gay rights, Trump said on the other hand that he'd be in favor of essentially reversing the supreme court's decision (however he may try to do that) and that scares me because it would actually affect my life.
 
This is pretty much my worry, on one hand Clinton could be for (or at the least keep) gay rights, Trump said on the other hand that he'd be in favor of essentially reversing the supreme court's decision (however he may try to do that) and that scares me because it would actually affect my life.

Yeah, I worry about that too. I think as long as the lbgt marriage cause is held in a positive light by the majority of people then Clinton will leave it alone, despite her long record of standing against it. Trump however is likely to appoint people who will destroy the progress you've made, despite Trump previously defending the LBGT movement in his book.

The really scary thing is the pair of them lie so much you never know what's real and what's lip service.
 
Yeah, I worry about that too. I think as long as the lbgt marriage cause is held in a positive light by the majority of people then Clinton will leave it alone, despite her long record of standing against it. Trump however is likely to appoint people who will destroy the progress you've made, despite Trump previously defending the LBGT movement in his book.

The really scary thing is the pair of them lie so much you never know what's real and what's lip service.

Honestly i think Hillary is going to be Obama Skim at worst; more centre/right than what you'd call Obama Lite but not nearly as bad as people keep saying?

Her changing on issues to align with what'll get her the most votes and make her seem the best isn't a thing i think will disappear magically once she becomes president, she'll stick to the mindset that got her elected and hope for a second term more than she'll do a 180 and reveal her true cackling witch self or something
 
Yeah, I worry about that too. I think as long as the lbgt marriage cause is held in a positive light by the majority of people then Clinton will leave it alone, despite her long record of standing against it. Trump however is likely to appoint people who will destroy the progress you've made, despite Trump previously defending the LBGT movement in his book.

The really scary thing is the pair of them lie so much you never know what's real and what's lip service.

One question: why would Clinton try to undo same-sex marriage? 76% of democrats supported same-sex marriage, most independents did too. Do you think she really wants to make a big "fuck you" to her voter base for no good reason? Do you really think she sits at home thinking "damn, I should roll back marriage rights just so my voter base gets really angry at me and I probably get an actual primary challenger four years from now"? Yeah, okay, she had a big flop from being against it to supporting it. But she's running in a party which overwhelmingly supports same-sex marriage, and it's not like it's currently illegal and she can just sit on it doing nothing while paying lip service; she'd have to pass a fucking constitutional amendment to re-ban it. All of that to win 0 votes and lose millions, and possibly get booted off from the democratic leadership in 4 years. Do you really think she's utterly unhinged?

Of course, the party that is full of anti-ssm members and which is running on a platform that supports discrimination laws against lgtb people, the Republicans, have nothing to lose from enacting those laws because their own supporters like them. So Trump would be fine doing that (or "leaving it to the states").

But yeah, if you believe Clinton could possibly think that undoing marriage equality is anything worth considering, then it's pretty obvious you have bought her "She's The Devil Incarnate" caricature so there isn't much hope, sadly.
 
One question: why would Clinton try to undo same-sex marriage? 76% of democrats supported same-sex marriage, most independents did too. Do you think she really wants to make a big "**** you" to her voter base for no good reason? Do you really think she sits at home thinking "damn, I should roll back marriage rights just so my voter base gets really angry at me and I probably get an actual primary challenger four years from now"? Yeah, okay, she had a big flop from being against it to supporting it. But she's running in a party which overwhelmingly supports same-sex marriage, and it's not like it's currently illegal and she can just sit on it doing nothing while paying lip service; she'd have to pass a ****ing constitutional amendment to re-ban it. All of that to win 0 votes and lose millions, and possibly get booted off from the democratic leadership in 4 years. Do you really think she's utterly unhinged?

Of course, the party that is full of anti-ssm members and which is running on a platform that supports discrimination laws against lgtb people, the Republicans, have nothing to lose from enacting those laws because their own supporters like them. So Trump would be fine doing that (or "leaving it to the states").

But yeah, if you believe Clinton could possibly think that undoing marriage equality is anything worth considering, then it's pretty obvious you have bought her "She's The Devil Incarnate" caricature so there isn't much hope, sadly.

I think you've misread my post, I said despite her history of being against it, she's likely to leave it alone. I never said I thought she'd go after it.

Personally I think the notion that Hillary is some giant liar is a lie in itself.

But that's just me. Surely fact-checkers that have analyzed her every statement throughout her campaign and found her to be more honest than your typical politican are wrong, right?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1582795/Hillary-Clintons-Bosnia-sniper-story-exposed.html

It's far from the only time she's "misspoke" or "misremebered" something that was significantly different to what happened.
 
Oh look! She fibbed! Like every politican does. Meanwhile, Politifact, an actual reputable independent fact-checking website, has deemed her the second most honest politician, behind Obama.

Yes, she's more honest than Bernie Sanders.

If you don't want an answer that doesn't fit your narrative, don't ask a question that challenges it. I mean Politifact is hardly a non bias source, regardless of what they claim.

She lies, she lies a lot. She gets away with lines like "I misspoke" which is of course political talk for "i was caught lying".

She also constantly flip flops on issues, there's no consistency and there's a lot of hypocrisy.

She's not a trustworthy person, and sure, you could argue a lot of politicians aren't, but a lot of politicians aren't running to be POTUS.
 
"I can't find anything to refute that point, so I'm just going to make a snarky response."

The initial reply was refuting your point about her supposed honesty. The snarky remark was in response to your cop out of "oh no she fibbed better ignore it thats just politics" rhetoric.

I dunno. I rely on fact-checkers because honesty of a politican does matter to me. I'm not expecting her to be squeaky clean, I'm expecting her to be honest on the positions that matter most i.e social issues, fiscal issues, economical issues, etc. And she generally is. But hey, who am I to disagree with people more qualified to verify claims than me?

How are they more qualified to verify claims than me or you? In the digital age its increasingly easy to check facts yourself without relying on others like Politifact and Snopes, who have both been noted for using their own interpretation as opposed to what was actually said. Clinton outright made up a story about coming under sniper fire to try and make herself seem heroic, but the evidence showed nothing of the sort happened. That's not a little fib or a white lie, that's an outright porkie.

On one hand, you can call it flip-flopping.

https://imgur.com/gallery/yZ0LZDP

https://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Colu...inton-Flip-Flops-Will-Make-Voters-Think-Twice

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...plain-her-flip-flops-it-still-might-not-work/

https://uk.businessinsider.com/hillary-clinton-gay-marriage-and-immigration-flip-flops-2015-4

It's not me calling it flip flopping, that's what the universally used term for behavior of this nature is.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=c.....69i57j0l5.3343j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Completely changing your stance to an opposite of positions you've held for years because another candidate's popularity increased isn't compromise, its outright flip flopping. I want someone who really believes what I believe as a leader, someone who's history backs it up. Not someone who is fickle. I want a rock, not a weather-vein.
 
I just want to add my own $0.02 about how Politifact is not without bias. Anecdotally, I've seen some of their reasoning for labeling something false are based on very narrow, cherry picked phrases not taken in the context they were spoken in. On the whole they're probably correct more often than not, probably even most of the time, but they are not infallible and I wouldn't agree with their statement that Clinton is more honest than Sanders and others - itself a troubling statement since that comparison doesn't state what statements they are drawing from and we're meant to take their word for it without being to check ourselves.

I don't doubt their motives, but I don't think they're as reliable as they could be since they have to deal with making their analyses easy to digest for the widest group of people interested in this kind of political stuff - and not everyone who is is going to have the same degree of critical thinking to understand a more nuanced answer than "pants on fire."
 
Okay, in an attempt to Correct The Record, when did Politifact say that Clinton was more honest than Sanders?
 
One thing constantly over looked is the fact that 80% of congress is up for re-election in November as well. You honestly think that Trump will be able to pass any of his more radical policies with a hostile Republican congress? or do anything at all with a Democrat majority? If you remember EO's are not law. With Hillery I'm worry about entering the realm of wrong thought policing that Canada and Australia has wondered into as of late.
 
It was never explicitly said (of course they wouldn't say something like that), but I've already provided a link that states as much through comparisons of statements. Here it is if you've missed it.

it could very well be that Sanders hasn't made enough statements to really gauge his actual honesty, because this going way back like nine years ago (probably before Sanders was relevant), so there's that.

But you said:

Ultimately, it is up to you as an individual whether or not you want to take Politifact's word as truth or not. You can do your own research and come up with your own results. It's certainly true that sometimes their results can seem more or less haphazard or cherry picked, but not without reason. Whether that reason is acceptable is another matter in its entirety.

It doesn't seem like there is a word from Politifact at all.

If we look at the records now, Bernie's file has 52% True and Mostly True, and 28% Mostly False and False. Hillary Clinton has 50% True and Mostly True, and 26% Mostly False and False, but 2% Pants on Fire False.

To Correct the Record, it looks like that, yeah, Bernie Sanders is more honest than Hillary Clinton, give or take.

Sarcasm aside, I don't think that Politifact had any opinion one way or another about the relative trustworthiness between Sanders and Clinton at all. For that reason, I don't think Politifact's reputation is at stake. I also think there's not much value in comparing quantifiable, yes, but ultimately highly abstract and decontextualized data points. But I think it's worth pointing out that a highly reputable source can come up with ideas or data that aren't very valuable, and I'm sure they never meant for it to be taken too seriously.
 
Thanks for the unneeded sarcasm,

Much obliged ;)

I wouldn't agree that how serious you take the Politifact numbers depends on individual preference - data, depending on the context, can be more or less rigorous and I don't think either of us disagree that the numbers aren't very rigorous. If the data isn't rigorous, how meaningful can any conclusions derived from said data be? I am pleased that we are in agreement, however, that it's each statement, in its own specific context, that counts.
 
Forgive me, I'm not quite understanding the kind of point that you're making, here. They're not as reliable as they could be because they dumb down information for people who aren't as political inclined? I'm not sure why that makes them unreliable in particular, can you explain?

Like, when you simplify you lose nuance. It's like in math where you're not supposed to round your numbers before multiplying. 9.78 x 10 isn't the same as 10 x 10. But lemme use a different example.

There's been claims that climate change helped cause ISIS and Politifact said that was a lie, but when you get into the nitty gritty details about how climate change forced lots of agrarian people into cities and ruined many people's livelihoods and such that means that, yes, climate change did help push people into desperate situations like forming terror groups. ISIS wouldn't say "We're doing this because of climate change" and there are other factors that come into it, but it did play a part. But that's all very messy and my summary of it is very brief - not the kind of thing that the average person would be willing to learn about just to see if a politician is being honest or not. When you have to simplify the narrative about the founding of ISIS it's all about the political/military events of the Middle East, the US invasion, and that sort of thing - so Politifact says "Climate change cause ISIS? Wrong!" because there's no room for that factor in the simple explanation of it.

Basically, I would say that a lot of what politicians say isn't just direct yes or no statements about very narrow topics - it's more nuanced, which is how you can have confusion about honesty and I don't think Politifact is as nuanced as I would like it to be in order for them to be considered as accurate and authoritative as they are taken to be.
 
Here are my thoughts on Hillary's honesty.

In my experience, the allegations of out-and-out lying against Hillary Clinton usually come not from the progressives or the left, but primarily from the right (on issues like Benghazi) or right-leaning independents. The main gripe the left has with Hillary is that she's a standard establishment politician- whatever major downsides she has ultimately have to do with that fact. Being a standard politician comes with having to be flexible, to an extent, with one's principles. You can only be as good and revolutionary as the donor money and the establishment strictures allow you to be. When these subvenient causes change, so would your policies, thereby explaining the flip-flopping characteristic of the establishment politicians. This means even when you make appeals to change in the right direction it sounds disingenuous. So Hillary, according to the phenomenology of the left, is untrustworthy, compromising, flexible, manufactured, and inauthentic- but all of these come only because of her being a politician.

Now people- democrats, at least- would probably have been accepting of all of this were it not for Bernie Sanders and the political revolution he speaks of. It's because of Bernie setting a different, higher standard than what people are used to is why Hillary is getting so much flak. That's the only reason. Hillary is not more evil than the usual standards, but Bernie came and threw a wrench into those standards that all of us probably considered normative.

Sarah Silverman explains it nicely (link) when she says Hillary's taking corporate donor money really wasn't an issue for her, since it's a necessary evil for the system there is. But when Bernie came along and showed a new way, what was once 'necessary evil' just became 'evil'.

Finally, I posted this video earlier in this thread, Dave Rubin basically encapsulates pretty much all of my thoughts on her becoming the nominee (link).
 
Here are my thoughts on Hillary's honesty.

In my experience, the allegations of out-and-out lying against Hillary Clinton usually come not from the progressives or the left, but primarily from the right (on issues like Benghazi) or right-leaning independents. The main gripe the left has with Hillary is that she's a standard establishment politician- whatever major downsides she has ultimately have to do with that fact. Being a standard politician comes with having to be flexible, to an extent, with one's principles. You can only be as good and revolutionary as the donor money and the establishment strictures allow you to be. When these subvenient causes change, so would your policies, thereby explaining the flip-flopping characteristic of the establishment politicians. This means even when you make appeals to change in the right direction it sounds disingenuous. So Hillary, according to the phenomenology of the left, is untrustworthy, compromising, flexible, manufactured, and inauthentic- but all of these come only because of her being a politician.

Now people- democrats, at least- would probably have been accepting of all of this were it not for Bernie Sanders and the political revolution he speaks of. It's because of Bernie setting a different, higher standard than what people are used to is why Hillary is getting so much flak. That's the only reason. Hillary is not more evil than the usual standards, but Bernie came and threw a wrench into those standards that all of us probably considered normative.

Sarah Silverman explains it nicely (link) when she says Hillary's taking corporate donor money really wasn't an issue for her, since it's a necessary evil for the system there is. But when Bernie came along and showed a new way, what was once 'necessary evil' just became 'evil'.

Finally, I posted this video earlier in this thread, Dave Rubin basically encapsulates pretty much all of my thoughts on her becoming the nominee (link).

Well yeah, Clinton isn't Hitler. She's just another career politician who only cares about her own pockets. Clinton is getting so much flak because she's the one running for POTUS. I mean, the DNC e- mail hacks, the CNN collaboration and the clandestine paid speeches to Wall Street haven't helped her in the eyes of the left (although the 'lost' votes, voter registration changing, polling stations closing etc certainly benefited her nomination) but the whole thing is indicative of a bigger problem.

Of course, there's also her own political record to take into account, the fact she hired DWS literally a day after she had to step down from the DNC Chair for attempted antisemitic attacks against Sanders and her Super PAC paying people to post child porn to Bernie Sanders facebook pages which haven't helped her credibility either.

The western world is getting tired of it. We saw it in Greece, in Spain, in Britain (Jeremy Corybn, a borderline socialist, won a landslide victory to lead his party and is set to win it again) and have already seen a far more left Germany, France, Sweden and Holland. America is playing catch up, but rest assured, people have had enough.
 
The western world is getting tired of it. We saw it in Greece, in Spain, in Britain (Jeremy Corybn, a borderline socialist, won a landslide victory to lead his party and is set to win it again) and have already seen a far more left Germany, France, Sweden and Holland. America is playing catch up, but rest assured, people have had enough.

As a Spaniard who voted for Podemos, I feel I need to point out a massive difference: the US political system is designed to actively punish parties that split up and to make radical agendas pretty much undoable. Let me explain. To begin with, I need to point out that the parties rising in Germany, France, Sweden and Holland are more akin to a mix between Trump and Cruz than anything resembling "left-wing", which is slightly terrifying. In fact, a few of those parties started as reformed neo-Fascist outlets, so i don't think that's something to be jealous of.

Second, the places where insurgent left-wing parties have been most successful (Greece, Spain, Italy) are countries that -albeit with bonuses to the winner in G and I- approportion their seats in a proportional way to the vote. You get X votes, you get X seats (again, there are some distortions, but the base is that). So you actually can afford to vote for a new party. In Spain, the Socialists (the equivalent to US Democrats) got 44% of the vote in 2008 and 47% of the seats. This year, the Socialists and Podemos got a combined 43% of the vote... and a combined 43% of the seats. Fair enough! The US, on the other hand, has a First Past The Post system- or Winner Takes All. Meaning, if the Democrats split their votes according to the primary results (55-45), then the resulting two parties would end... with a combined handful of seats in Philadelphia, California and little else. Ever heard about deranged and hated Republican Paul lePage winning blue Maine twice with 30-odd percent of the vote because the left wing split up their votes between two different candidates? That, in all levels of Government, accross all the country, times ten. And this is exactly why the Labour party is trying to kick Corbyn away, fearing a complete wipeout in the next election if they are seen as "too radical" and moderate voters choose to pick the safer-sounding Conservatives, as it already happened in the UK during the 80s.

Third, not only the US has an electoral system that punishes divisions and parties whose leaders seem too radical (see: McGovern, Goldwater), the legislative system is designed to force parties to compromise, drop part of their proposals, pass wishy-washy bargains and flip-flop inside dark rooms. Why? Because, unlike in European systems where Parliament is all-powerful and appoints and removes Governments (and usually the House-equivalent alone has that power, even if there is a Senate), ensuring that both wings are on the same page and can pass laws without too much trouble, in the US there is a complete, absolute division of powers. What does that mean? That one party with barely 41 senators (which is 41% of just 1/3 of Government) can veto every single bill from ever becoming law - even if the other party controls the presidency and has majorities in both houses of Congress. When you give veto power to such a tiny piece of the system, you are essentially forcing both sides to deal. Even if only one of the two sides becomes crazy (see: Republicans), the entire system is doomed into gridlock forever unless both sides compromise in everything.

In other words, the US Constitution was written to encourage moderate, centrist leaders who can deal in the shadows and who can appeal to the largest share of the population by not looking too extreme or radical, and to encourage a "lesser-of-evils" mindset on the voters. Thus, Hillary Clinton. Hence, Trump is tanking. Therefore, insurgent parties simply cannot grow. The US can wake up, but as long as the Constitution is intact, it won't do much good.

Also good luck changing the US Constitution.
 
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