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Serious 2020 Democratic Primaries

Maedar

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  • Clinton may be the consensus candidate

    Right, sure, like the Democrats want another election season with everyone on the Republican side yelling "LOCK HER UP!" while Fox News commentators bring up her emails, Whitewater, and every imagined sordid detail about her husband's philandering. Believe me, once was enough.
     
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  • Right, sure, like the Democrats want another election season with everyone on the Republican side yelling "LOCK HER UP!" while Fox News commentators bring up her emails, Whitewater, and every imagined sordid detail about her husband's philandering. Believe me, once was enough.

    Certainly not in this universe. Unless people really have no idea whatsoever of what democratic voters really care about. Clinton cannot, and will not, be nominated by the democratic base after her defeat to Trump. Full stop.

    Well then who do you think the establishment will pick if Biden continues to falter? Obviously it can't be Bernie, I guess Warren, but there is the whole "raising taxes on the middle class" thing. After that you have Buttigieg but he is facing problems with African American voters, but in terms of polls after that you got a bunch of nobodies who are jockeying for VP ( Booker, Yang, Harris, and Beto ).
     
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    Hands

    I was saying Boo-urns
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    Well then who do you think the establishment will pick if Biden continues to falter? Obviously it can't be Bernie, I guess Warren, but there is the whole "raising taxes on the middle class" thing. After that you have Buttigieg but he is facing problems with African American voters, but in terms of polls after that you got a bunch of nobodies who are jockeying for VP ( Booker, Yang, Harris, and Beto ).

    They'll back Warren because she's far closer to what they want than Bernie is. Only one candidate on that stage didn't stand up and feverishly applaud Trump's McCarthyist rant during his SOTU address and that was Sanders. Warren is a capitalist who's happy to take big donations and she will eventually be bought out.



    For what it's worth i think that if they thought they could push Clinton they would, but her failure rate when it comes to the voting stage would be too high
     
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  • They'll back Warren because she's far closer to what they want than Bernie is. Only one candidate on that stage didn't stand up and feverishly applaud Trump's McCarthyist rant during his SOTU address and that was Sanders. Warren is a capitalist who's happy to take big donations and she will eventually be bought out.

    I feel like support for Warren will be conditional on how she handles the Medicare For All minefield, I just can't see the Democratic establishment pushing some one who is forced to admit she wants to raise taxes on the middle class. That in and of itself seems like a guaranteed way for a Trump second term.

    I guess if it isn't Hillary, it isn't Biden, it isn't Warren, maybe Michelle Obama? I have seen her name floated a bunch.

    Edit: If anyone wants this is the most current analysis of what Warren and Bernie's Medicare for All plan would cost.

    http://www.crfb.org/papers/choices-financing-medicare-all-preliminary-analysis
     
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    Hands

    I was saying Boo-urns
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    I feel like support for Warren will be conditional on how she handles the Medicare For All minefield, I just can't see the Democratic establishment pushing some one who is forced to admit she wants to raise taxes on the middle class. That in and of itself seems like a guaranteed way for a Trump second term.

    I guess if it isn't Hillary, it isn't Biden, it isn't Warren, maybe Michelle Obama? I have seen her name floated a bunch.

    Edit: If anyone wants this is the most current analysis of what Warren and Bernie's Medicare for All plan would cost.

    http://www.crfb.org/papers/choices-financing-medicare-all-preliminary-analysis

    "We find that Medicare for All could be financed with:"

    Feels like they're just trying to scaremonger with this. So many other countries manage to fund their healthcare systems adequately
     
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  • "We find that Medicare for All could be financed with:"

    Feels like they're just trying to scaremonger with this. So many other countries manage to fund their healthcare systems adequately

    I don't know if I would call it scaremongering, they are a bipartisan think tank and lay out several different avenues that it can be accomplished, the thing is all of them seem to hurt the middle class one way or another, with the biggest one being an increase of taxes. Which goes back to Elizabeth Warren's current dance around not wanting to admit that it will cause a tax increase. To my knowledge she hasn't directly answered in the debates how she plans to pay for it and pretty much everyone knows it will have to include a middle class tax increase. She is just going to get hammered at debates and attack ads until she fesses up. Which is why I don't think the Democratic Party wants to back her.
     

    Hands

    I was saying Boo-urns
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    I don't know if I would call it scaremongering, they are a bipartisan think tank and lay out several different avenues that it can be accomplished, the thing is all of them seem to hurt the middle class one way or another, with the biggest one being an increase of taxes. Which goes back to Elizabeth Warren's current dance around not wanting to admit that it will cause a tax increase. To my knowledge she hasn't directly answered in the debates how she plans to pay for it and pretty much everyone knows it will have to include a middle class tax increase. She is just going to get hammered at debates and attack ads until she fesses up. Which is why I don't think the Democratic Party wants to back her.

    Claiming that they'd have to cut 80% of the military's serving members or social security or putting up 40+% vat claims is scaremongering when most people would pay less in the tax increase than they pay on a medical plan now.
     
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  • Claiming that they'd have to cut 80% of the military's serving members or social security or putting up 40+% vat claims is scaremongering when most people would pay less in the tax increase than they pay on a medical plan now.

    That is not what Kenneth E. Thorpe from Emory University discovered, he has been working on this for over a decade in Vermont.

    Allies of the Medicare for All plan correctly points out there would be savings from the
    approach for families from out of pocket health care costs. Certainly not paying premiums or a
    deductible or a copayment would save many families money. We estimate that would average
    over $2 trillion per year over the next ten years. However, taxes would have to be increased by an
    average of $3.2 trillion over the same period. A Medicare for All plan would create enormous
    winners and losers that have not been discussed in the debate. My recent analysis compares
    the dollars savings households with private health insurance would receive through the
    elimination of premiums and cost sharing to the new federal taxes they would pay to fund the
    program. The analysis shows that 71 percent of households with private insurance today would
    pay more in new taxes than they would save through the elimination of premiums and cost
    sharing.

    For example, two-thirds of workers in small firms under 50 would pay more in taxes under a
    Medicare for All plan than they would save in the elimination of premiums and cost sharing.
    The tax increases would also hit the middle class. Two-thirds of families of 4 earning $50,000 to
    $75,000 would pay more in taxes than they would save through a Medicare for All plan. Overall
    over 10 million households earning between 200 and 300 percent of poverty would pay more in
    taxes than they would save through the elimination of premiums and cost sharing. Overall
    nearly 70 million households would pay more in higher taxes than they would save under
    Medicare for All.

    https://www.sph.emory.edu/departments/hpm/_page-content/The-Disruptive-Distributional-Impacts.pdf

    Edit: Washington Post has a compilation video of Warren dodging the question about Middle Class taxes.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZraWUtBybV0
     
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    Hands

    I was saying Boo-urns
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    That is not what Kenneth E. Thorpe from Emory University discovered, he has been working on this for over a decade in Vermont.

    Allies of the Medicare for All plan correctly points out there would be savings from the
    approach for families from out of pocket health care costs. Certainly not paying premiums or a
    deductible or a copayment would save many families money. We estimate that would average
    over $2 trillion per year over the next ten years. However, taxes would have to be increased by an
    average of $3.2 trillion over the same period. A Medicare for All plan would create enormous
    winners and losers that have not been discussed in the debate. My recent analysis compares
    the dollars savings households with private health insurance would receive through the
    elimination of premiums and cost sharing to the new federal taxes they would pay to fund the
    program. The analysis shows that 71 percent of households with private insurance today would
    pay more in new taxes than they would save through the elimination of premiums and cost
    sharing.

    For example, two-thirds of workers in small firms under 50 would pay more in taxes under a
    Medicare for All plan than they would save in the elimination of premiums and cost sharing.
    The tax increases would also hit the middle class. Two-thirds of families of 4 earning $50,000 to
    $75,000 would pay more in taxes than they would save through a Medicare for All plan. Overall
    over 10 million households earning between 200 and 300 percent of poverty would pay more in
    taxes than they would save through the elimination of premiums and cost sharing. Overall
    nearly 70 million households would pay more in higher taxes than they would save under
    Medicare for All.

    https://www.sph.emory.edu/departments/hpm/_page-content/The-Disruptive-Distributional-Impacts.pdf

    Edit: Washington Post has a compilation video of Warren dodging the question about Middle Class taxes.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZraWUtBybV0


    My guy you know me well enough to know I'm not backing Warren


    He's talking about hypothetical tax increases as opposed to the actual plans Sanders put forward, not that any of it actually matters because there is no solid argument against it. Britain created the NHS in the post war years when half our country was rubble and we had accumulated massive debt to America. We still did it, and as a result we've saved millions of lives, people aren't in medical debt, we don't get charged for holding our newborn babies. You could tell me they'd tax everyone at 50% and I'd still support an American NHS.
     

    Her

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    There is no way that Clinton will enter the race - I won't say there is zero possibility because mathematically that's just stupid, but with the way the donors have moved from appointing Harris as the anointed to appointing Warren, it's pretty clear that she's going to be leading the race as Biden continues to falter. Rather, Clinton's revitalised presence is a warning - you can only utilise so much of the progressive wave before we knock you back down, because they're still making plans on how they want to harness the progressive wing in the future. The DNC seem glad to torpedo any Dem presidency if it means Sanders doesn't get in, since time and time again the DNC appear willing to take their chances on the American people being willing to deal with the current fascist wannabes in charge a bit longer, but putting in Hillary at this stage would torpedo the Dems for eight years, at least. The corporate wing of the Democrats aren't that stupid, but they are willing to do public scare tactics like this.
     

    Ivysaur

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  • But the question is: even if Clinton jumped into the race, who would vote for her? Who? You need people to vote for you if you want to win a primary, right? And I don't know a single person who would actually vote to run again the only person who we know has lost to Trump in an election so he can beat her once more without even forcing Fox to come up with some new "the Dem candidate is Satan incarnate" propaganda.
     
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  • But the question is: even if Clinton jumped into the race, who would vote for her? Who? You need people to vote for you if you want to win a primary, right? And I don't know a single person who would actually vote to run again the only person who we know has lost to Trump in an election so he can beat her once more without even forcing Fox to come up with some new "the Dem candidate is Satan incarnate" propaganda.

    I can think of two types, the first are the diehard Clinton loyalists, those that honestly think it is her time, that she deserves the Presidency and that she unfairly lost the last election because of Russia. There are not too many of these Clinton fans but I don't doubt they are out there. This could become a factor if there is no clear winner in the first round of balloting at the convention, at which point the Super Delegates come in, who may have a stronger tie to the Clintons as we saw in 2016.

    The second would be those who are more left of center or who believe a more unifying candidate has a better chance of winning than a far leftist candidate. These right now seem to occupy the Biden camp and to a lesser extent the Buttigieg camp. If Biden were to drop out they could conceivably migrate to a Clinton candidacy. Probably not enough to put her into the number one slot, but atleast in the top three.
     
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    Ivysaur

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  • I can think of two types, the first are the diehard Clinton loyalists, those that honestly think it is her time, that she deserves the Presidency and that she unfairly lost the last election because of Russia. There are not too many of these Clinton fans but I don't doubt they are out there. This could become a factor if there is no clear winner in the first round of balloting at the convention, at which point the Super Delegates come in, who may have a stronger tie to the Clintons as we saw in 2016.

    The second would be those who are more left of center or who believe a more unifying candidate has a better chance of winning than a far leftist candidate. These right now seem to occupy the Biden camp and to a lesser extent the Buttigieg camp. If Biden were to drop out they could conceivably migrate to a Clinton candidacy. Probably not enough to put her into the number one slot, but atleast in the top three.

    I don't deny that there may be some die-hard Clinton fans, and that's why I said she might be able to go head-to-head against Bullock for that sweet 1% in the polls, but the other two scenarios sound totally insane to me. I fail to understand why, if there's a tie or the frontrunner fails a bit short, the superdelegates would pick Clinton out of nowhere instead of simply giving Biden / Buttigieg / insert centrist who is actually running a push to get over the line (if they really think Warren is so unacceptable, which I am not so certain).

    And second, I don't know how Clinton can be a more unifying figure than, well, anyone who is running. If Biden were to drop (why would he, anyway), chances are they'd migrate to, well, Buttigieg or Klobuchar or one of the centrists who are actually running and don't have five tons of baggage that can be used by Fox News to craft hours and hours of cheap propaganda shots. At the very least, with Buttigieg, Trump News would have to put in some effort to explain why he's the greatest threat to humanity who ever existed. With Clinton? Just put the propaganda into the microwave, ting, you're done.
     
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  • I don't deny that there may be some die-hard Clinton fans, and that's why I said she might be able to go head-to-head against Bullock for that sweet 1% in the polls, but the other two scenarios sound totally insane to me. I fail to understand why, if there's a tie or the frontrunner fails a bit short, the superdelegates would pick Clinton out of nowhere instead of simply giving Biden / Buttigieg / insert centrist who is actually running a push to get over the line (if they really think Warren is so unacceptable, which I am not so certain).

    And second, I don't know how Clinton can be a more unifying figure than, well, anyone who is running. If Biden were to drop (why would he, anyway), chances are they'd migrate to, well, Buttigieg or Klobuchar or one of the centrists who are actually running and don't have five tons of baggage that can be used by Fox News to craft hours and hours of cheap propaganda shots. At the very least, with Buttigieg, Trump News would have to put in some effort to explain why he's the greatest threat to humanity who ever existed. With Clinton? Just put the propaganda into the microwave, ting, you're done.

    I agree for it to happen largely would have to be because Biden bows out either because of health issues or just total self destruction. I am not sure about Klobuchar but Buttigieg may have problems maintaining the African American vote, he has had some problems over the summer with a shooting in his town, and according to the NYTimes atleast his campaign is worrying that being gay is a barrier to him winning African American voters.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ny...litics/pete-buttigieg-south-carolina.amp.html
     

    Ivysaur

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  • I agree for it to happen largely would have to be because Biden bows out either because of health issues or just total self destruction. I am not sure about Klobuchar but Buttigieg may have problems maintaining the African American vote, he has had some problems over the summer with a shooting in his town, and according to the NYTimes atleast his campaign is worrying that being gay is a barrier to him winning African American voters.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ny...litics/pete-buttigieg-south-carolina.amp.html

    But Buttigieg is not A Gay. If you listen to his stump speech, that's just a footnote, not something he beats you up with every second. And he is pretty religious, so I'm pretty sure the vast majority of African-Americans could live with him. Which is different to being enthusiastic about him when you have other options in a primary, but, well. The alternative in the general would be Trump and the Republicans anyway, so I'm pretty sure >90% of them would fall into line as usual.

    But still. Another point is that many voters, especially the more left-wing ones (which the party also needs to win an election) could grudgingly vote for Biden or Buttigieg even if they find them way too mushy centrist if they were to beat Sanders and Warren fair and square. But if the convention ends up with "Surprise! It's Clinton out of nowhere!", the level of anger -sheer, unstoppable anger- against the Democratic Party would be unbearable. And they'd rather run a Warren and risk losing than undemocratically shove in a Clinton and risk the party itself blowing up for years.
     
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  • But Buttigieg is not A Gay. If you listen to his stump speech, that's just a footnote, not something he beats you up with every second. And he is pretty religious, so I'm pretty sure the vast majority of African-Americans could live with him. Which is different to being enthusiastic about him when you have other options in a primary, but, well. The alternative in the general would be Trump and the Republicans anyway, so I'm pretty sure >90% of them would fall into line as usual.

    If his campaign memo is to be believed, he doesn't need to go out and wave a rainbow banner at every stump speech, just the mere mention that he has a husband is enough to turn African American voters off. Which is the thing, it doesn't matter if >90% of African American voters vote for Buttigieg in a general election, what matters is the 60% ( The number who say they read scripture every week ) that refused to vote at all.

    But still. Another point is that many voters, especially the more left-wing ones (which the party also needs to win an election) could grudgingly vote for Biden or Buttigieg even if they find them way too mushy centrist if they were to beat Sanders and Warren fair and square. But if the convention ends up with "Surprise! It's Clinton out of nowhere!", the level of anger -sheer, unstoppable anger- against the Democratic Party would be unbearable. And they'd rather run a Warren and risk losing than undemocratically shove in a Clinton and risk the party itself blowing up for years.

    Oh no doubt I agree there is anger, and it really is hard to gameplan a scenario in which she comes out, but here is what I am throwing out and I would love the input.

    It's July, Biden is out because of health or some other reason, Warren has a lead, but not enough to put her over, Buttigieg has a sizeable amount but he did not win a single southern state. Bernie is languishing in third place, but does not want to play king maker to the other two, hoping that he can sneak in on the later rounds.

    Thinking Warren is a tougher foe, the RNC and Trump Campaign begin to blast the airwaves that Warren will raise your taxes, she will replace your health care with something that resembles the VA or the DMV. Think a combination of the Republican ad blitz during the Obamacare debate, combined with Obama's ad blitz in the summer of 2012 to set Romney up as a out of touch elitist.

    The DNC sees two choices, either go with a candidate that will satisfy the liberal wing, but is getting trounced in her vision of health care, or go with a candidate that will satisfy the moderate wing, but cannot hold together the so called "Obama Coalition" needed to win.

    That is where Clinton comes in, she argues that she won by 3 million over Trump, and will do it again, she learned her lessons from last time, etc etc etc. The DNC sees it as a way to get an establishment candidate in, that could appeal to the moderate voters with Buttigieg, and that could possibly win over the Warren supporters by being the first female president. Possibly with some additional horse trading of Warren being the VP or something.

    Yeah it is very House of Cardsish, and yeah it would enrage the liberal base, but I could see the DNC looking at 2016 with Bernie voters and saying "They will come around"
     
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    Hands

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    I can think of two types, the first are the diehard Clinton loyalists, those that honestly think it is her time, that she deserves the Presidency and that she unfairly lost the last election because of Russia. There are not too many of these Clinton fans but I don't doubt they are out there. This could become a factor if there is no clear winner in the first round of balloting at the convention, at which point the Super Delegates come in, who may have a stronger tie to the Clintons as we saw in 2016.

    The second would be those who are more left of center or who believe a more unifying candidate has a better chance of winning than a far leftist candidate. These right now seem to occupy the Biden camp and to a lesser extent the Buttigieg camp. If Biden were to drop out they could conceivably migrate to a Clinton candidacy. Probably not enough to put her into the number one slot, but atleast in the top three.

    If you are left of center there's absolutely zero chance you're backing Biden, you are likely backing Warren
     
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  • We're just a couple of months before the Iowa caucus, and more folks are still entering the primary. Make it stop... there's too many of you. I have lost count. There's not enough distinctions between them. If they were all bringing new ideas with them then my patience wouldn't wear so thin.

    Bloomberg was in the running for my least favorite candidate when he entered the primary last week, but now that Deval Patrick is in it he's definitely the guy I dislike the most. He just stopped working for Mitt Romney's investment firm Bain Capital days ago literally, so he can continue his vulture economic policies on a state level. Worse than his time harvesting companies as a Bain executive may be his job with Ameriquest who helped give us the subprime mortgage loan crisis. Safe to say that we'll have more predatory environmental policies as well looking at his stint defending Texaco oil from vote lawsuits as they destroyed Ecuador's rainforests drilling for oil. He was loud and clear that Medicare For All is not even an option on the CBS this morning show. He even gifted the pharmaceutical companies with billions in subsidies and tax breaks when he was in office. The oligarchy has found their knight in shining armor. I have made plain my thoughts on Biden, but I would vote even for him over Patrick.

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/deval...-one-stop-shop-of-industries-democrats-loathe

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/11/14/will-deval-patrick-have-mitt-romney-problem/
     
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  • The play gets jucier by the day. The more the Democrats line up to run their own little campaigns, the more Trump strolls in with a plastic straw and slurps up the cash they drop. People are feeling left behind and honestly I cannot keep track of all the Democratic runners. The mains, sure but the little people?

    Trump's approval was not halted by the impeachment inquiry at all, in fact it rose by about four or five points. What's more, President Trump's campaign raised 3 million in as many hours at the start of this little impeachment picnic.

    While money does not guarantee a win (it helped Hillary absolutely zero) it shows that people are willing to support President Trump regardless.

    Schiff does not help the Democrats at all, and the longer this beat rolls on the closer the steam roller gets. Too divided, too disrespectful and far too black label for my tastes. Shunting efforts from actually trying to do their jobs.

    Word is that you can't utter the so-called whistleblower's name on Twitter, Facebook or Youtube and come out unscathed (if you own a channel in an official capacity). Tim Poole was locked from face book for a bit and youtube privitized his videos regarding said whistleblower, a Mr. 'Allemaraic Cire'. He wasn't the only one.

    Maybe the Democrats can pull a somewhat decent candidate out of a hat (Mashes the X Button furiously) that won't get torn to shreds.

    The key here that I don't think people understand is that you can call President Trump anything and everything under the sun and it will. not. work. He is Teflon Don and his base, and now the center, is beginning to believe it as well. The people leading the charge against him are far too weak.
     
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  • Pete Buttigieg has rocketed to a first place lead of nine points in one of the latest polls of Iowa.

    https://www.desmoinesregister.com/s...-poll-warren-sanders-biden-follow/4198100002/

    The caucus is still 3 months away, so plenty of time for that to change, however if the Senate picks up impeachment hearings after the Christmas break, that would mean Senator Sanders and Senator Warren would be forced to stay in Washington the final month before the start of the caucus.
     
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