America becoming more fascist?

[Starpire]

Trump might not be as personally fascist as he is fascist-apologetic or painfully unaware of the white-supremacists he's got holding him by the collar.
He's in it for the promise of money, that's for sure.

Regardless, it's no excuse.
At best, he's a figurehead conman to a fascist administration he believes is his.
At worst, he's a dictator.

His supporters either follow him for his false promises for a better life or the promise to see outsiders "put in their place".

Though, I'm genuinely interested in knowing what his supporters DO think about my claim.
What do you think of the suffering he's put minorities through? His attacks on the media? What's your best excuse for any of this?

 

[Radiating]

Trump might not be as personally fascist as he is fascist-apologetic or painfully unaware of the white-supremacists he's got holding him by the collar.
He's in it for the promise of money, that's for sure.

Regardless, it's no excuse.
At best, he's a figurehead conman to a fascist administration he believes is his.
At worst, he's a dictator.

His supporters either follow him for his false promises for a better life or the promise to see outsiders "put in their place".

Though, I'm genuinely interested in knowing what his supporters DO think about my claim.
What do you think of the suffering he's put minorities through? His attacks on the media? What's your best excuse for any of this?

The Trump administration hasn't showed fascism, neither is he a dictator. He still bound to US laws and balances, so he can't be a "dictator". Also, why would he be in it for the money, he already is rich enough. There isn't even any evidence to support that he's doing it for the money. He also hasn't showed any "White Supremacist" behavior, nor is he being controlled by them, there is no proof. While I do believe a lot of his followers support him because he will remove outsiders such as some immigrants, but he has his reasons. There are illegal immigrants residing here without papers. The middle east is also a worrisome place due to terrorists. Some European countries have seen what can happen when some "refugees" are let in unchecked. The media can be dishonest too on , but so can the government.

So while Trump hasn't done the best at handling his policies, there are legitimate reasons for why he wants to enforce them. I am in no way a Trump supporter, but I do see the reasons for his choices.

 

[Hands]

The Trump administration hasn't showed fascism, neither is he a dictator. He still bound to US laws and balances, so he can't be a "dictator". Also, why would he be in it for the money, he already is rich enough. There isn't even any evidence to support that he's doing it for the money. He also hasn't showed any "White Supremacist" behavior, nor is he being controlled by them, there is no proof. While I do believe a lot of his followers support him because he will remove outsiders such as some immigrants, but he has his reasons. There are illegal immigrants residing here without papers. The middle east is also a worrisome place due to terrorists. Some European countries have seen what can happen when some "refugees" are let in unchecked. The media can be dishonest too on , but so can the government.

So while Trump hasn't done the best at handling his policies, there are legitimate reasons for why he wants to enforce them. I am in no way a Trump supporter, but I do see the reasons for his choices.

Here's a wild idea, maybe if we didn't keep bombing the Middle East, blowing up babies, arming terrorist groups and invading their homes we wouldn't have to worry about Terrorism. So what has Trump done? targeted seven countries with very little legitimate ground to do so other than to pander to thick as muck Righties who want "muh merica" back. Appeasing far right moronic supremacists is white supremacist in itself.

He also panders to insane stereotypes. "some are good people, I assume" is indicative of this. He stated that Mexico is deliberately sending rapists and Muslim extremists (from mexico? I didn't really understand why he said that other than to stoke up idiots) as a fact, but that some illegal immigrants might be good people is only a loose possibility. It's deliberate language. Trump is a businessman, convincing idiots to buy something they don't need (a wall that isn't going to fix anything for instance) is what businessmen do best. That is not to say everyone who voted for Trump is an idiot, but he certainly deliberately exploited those who are short on brain power with racist rhetoric.

It's very clear now that Bannon, a white supremacist and far right propagandist, is incredibly influential in the Oval office, if not completely running the show for Trump.

Trump has displayed very close to fascist actions, banning the National Park Service from using Twitter after they shared images that showed a stark contrast to his open lies, suppressing scientists, putting a climate change denier in charge of the EPA to ensure no pesky facts get out, putting an extremist with no qualifications or credentials in charge of education etc. Now he's only letting in media outlets that support him. He isn't Hitler, but to suggest he's done nothing close to Fascism is either very naive or very delusional

 

[Sektor]

Yes... yes it is. Any system in which you vote for your leadership is a democracy. More specifically for the US, it's a representative democracy. You are voting in representatives to make decisions. It's not a pure/direct democracy because direct democracy on a national scale is horsemuk and doesn't work. It's still a democracy though.

I keep feeling like you don't have a full grasp on the United States governmental system. Let me be crystal clear: no, you're wrong about the United States being a democracy. The United States of America is a Republic. There is a difference. Perhaps this may be why you don't understand or are confused with the Electoral College.

You have been taking valid criticisms and points (Hitler's Governmental policies) and discounting valid arguments by stating that they hold no value. If Governmental policies do not determine one's political standing what does? I feel more at a loss that you're going through this believing you're 100% correct when in fact you failed to pinpoint even the basis of what the United States' government is based upon. It creates room for doubt and it makes it hard to make a good argument with somebody that refuses to listen.

Please utilize the tools available to you to discover the purposes and functions of the United States' systems of governance and why they are needed.

 

[gimmepie]

I keep feeling like you don't have a full grasp on the United States governmental system. Let me be crystal clear: no, you're wrong about the United States being a democracy. The United States of America is a Republic. There is a difference. Perhaps this may be why you don't understand or are confused with the Electoral College.

Being a republic has no baring on whether or not the US is a democratic nation. Being a republic just means that you don't have a monarch. If you don't have a monarch and still have an elected government, you're a republic yes. A democratic one. You're still a democracy.

I don't understand why you seem to think I'm confused here. I know how the Electoral College works. I understand what it is meant to do. I disagree with it. I disagree with anything that undermines the democratic process.

You have been taking valid criticisms and points (Hitler's Governmental policies) and discounting valid arguments by stating that they hold no value. If Governmental policies do not determine one's political standing what does? I feel more at a loss that you're going through this believing you're 100% correct when in fact you failed to pinpoint even the basis of what the United States' government is based upon. It creates room for doubt and it makes it hard to make a good argument with somebody that refuses to listen.

This would be all well and good if I hadn't explained how you were wrong. The information explaining how you cannot be left-wing and fascist is right there. I also explained that the Nazis and Mussolini were both socially right wing even if they had economic policies that were more left-of-centre. It's not hard to grasp, you're making criticisms of me that aren't there to be made.

Please utilize the tools available to you to discover the purposes and functions of the United States' systems of governance and why they are needed.

Please actually read my posts instead of living in a fairy land where only people who support Trump can be correct.

 

[Somewhere_]

I think Gimmiepie is right here. While fascism often has left-of-center economic policies, it is more defined by its right-wing social policies. This is why Augusto Pinochet of Chile is not considered a fascist. He was incredibly authoritarian, nationalistic, and militaristic; however, he focused more on the economy than social issues (as far as I know).

 

[Desert Stream~]

What? Ban protesting? Why won't my parents let me leave the country :/
Anyways, yes, I have been seeing a lot of change in our political system, and I am not liking it, considering I lean more to the left. And it really saddens me that a bunch of the people in our country fall under the false beliefs that we are a democratic country. We might be kind of democratic, but we are much more of a republic, and soon, a fasciest.

 

[gimmepie]

What? Ban protesting? Why won't my parents let me leave the country :/
Anyways, yes, I have been seeing a lot of change in our political system, and I am not liking it, considering I lean more to the left. And it really saddens me that a bunch of the people in our country fall under the false beliefs that we are a democratic country. We might be kind of democratic, but we are much more of a republic, and soon, a fasciest.

Same as I said to jdjacket, you can be both a Democracy and a Republic. The US is both. You're right about your government rapidly becoming more fascist though.

 

[Oddball_]

I... don't understand how anyone can deny that the US isn't both a republic and a democracy. Like... Our two main parties, both of which are supposed to be equal in power in the overall working of our government, are Republican and Democrat. We're a hodgepodge combination of the two. So yeah, I'm with GP here.

 

[Thepowaofhax]

It's perfectly possible to democratically elect a leader who then transitions the government to fascism. It's happened multiple times throughout history. It's in every way a valid criticism.

It is not by the powers of Trump that will turn our country to anything close to Fascism, but by the powers of the CIA and their political supporters that is threatening our democracy. Our first step to curbstomping Fascism in our country is to dismantle the CIA. Vault 7 has been the start in regards to exposing their disdain for human rights and it will be a trainwreck once more and more leaks come in.

 

[gimmepie]

It is not by the powers of Trump that will turn our country to anything close to Fascism, but by the powers of the CIA and their political supporters that is threatening our democracy. Our first step to curbstomping Fascism in our country is to dismantle the CIA. Vault 7 has been the start in regards to exposing their disdain for human rights and it will be a trainwreck once more and more leaks come in.

Your country is already far closer to fascism than anyone in a democracy should be comfortable with and Trump is a part of that. I don't think he's going to turn the US into a totalitarian dystopia in the next four years but I don't think it's wise to dismiss the threat he poses to freedom, equality and democracy in the US either.

 

[Thepowaofhax]

Your country is already far closer to fascism than anyone in a democracy should be comfortable with and Trump is a part of that. I don't think he's going to turn the US into a totalitarian dystopia in the next four years but I don't think it's wise to dismiss the threat he poses to freedom, equality and democracy in the US either.

Except being a Right-wing Authoritarian and xenophobic isn't the sole qualification of Fascism. Here is a checklist for Fascism:

1. Against Communism and Capitalism, often taking the Third Position or Corporatism. Trump is Capitalist. The CIA would likely be Corporatist, especially with the fact that it was paying corporations to keep security flaws in their software (see Vault 7).
2. Palingenetic Ultranationalism. Donald Trump may want a national rebirth, but it is not as the US of the past but more of fixing the economy. He does not want 1776 or the 1800s again. Nor would he ever dare to mutter this. The CIA does not exhibit this feature.
3. Nationalization of news media and silencing news media. While he does not allow some news outlets in the White House, he is not outright silencing them. Operation Mockingbird points the CIA to this.
4. Autarky. Donald Trump is protectionist, but he has yet to call form the complete economic autarky of our country nor will he ever do that. CIA is a no.
5. Third Positionism. Trump does not support this. See above for the CIA.
6. Aggressive foreign policy (likely to be imperialist). While he seems isolationist, there have been recent events that point of the opposite. The CIA has a history of this.
7. Violent direct action. For the most part, he hasn''t done this. (except for maybe paying for a protestor's legal fees for punching someone). The CIA can't do this because they know it would lead to it being dismantled.
8. Indoctrination of the populous. He has no tried this. The CIA has tried this, see Operation Mockingbird.
9. Totalitarian one-party state. He has never argued this nor has he tried this. The CIA has not argued this or tried this yet.
10. Propaganda. Trump is not behind any propaganda, see Operation Mockingbird (of which Trump is against the CIA).

Your check list fits more with the CIA more than Trump as well (aside from immigration laws). As JFK said, splinter the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds. Trump is only an authoritarian.

 

[Sir Codin]

Except being a Right-wing Authoritarian and xenophobic isn't the sole qualification of Fascism. Here is a checklist for Fascism:

1. Against Communism and Capitalism, often taking the Third Position or Corporatism. Trump is Capitalist. The CIA would likely be Corporatist, especially with the fact that it was paying corporations to keep security flaws in their software (see Vault 7).
2. Palingenetic Ultranationalism. Donald Trump may want a national rebirth, but it is not as the US of the past but more of fixing the economy. He does not want 1776 or the 1800s again. Nor would he ever dare to mutter this. The CIA does not exhibit this feature.
3. Nationalization of news media and silencing news media. While he does not allow some news outlets in the White House, he is not outright silencing them. Operation Mockingbird points the CIA to this.
4. Autarky. Donald Trump is protectionist, but he has yet to call form the complete economic autarky of our country nor will he ever do that. CIA is a no.
5. Third Positionism. Trump does not support this. See above for the CIA.
6. Aggressive foreign policy (likely to be imperialist). While he seems isolationist, there have been recent events that point of the opposite. The CIA has a history of this.
7. Violent direct action. For the most part, he hasn''t done this. (except for maybe paying for a protestor's legal fees for punching someone). The CIA can't do this because they know it would lead to it being dismantled.
8. Indoctrination of the populous. He has no tried this. The CIA has tried this, see Operation Mockingbird.
9. Totalitarian one-party state. He has never argued this nor has he tried this. The CIA has not argued this or tried this yet.
10. Propaganda. Trump is not behind any propaganda, see Operation Mockingbird (of which Trump is against the CIA).

Your check list fits more with the CIA more than Trump as well (aside from immigration laws). As JFK said, splinter the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds. Trump is only an authoritarian.

Where did you even get this list? Who the hell even made this list? I made an entire post about fascism one page ago and I never found this list.

 

[Thepowaofhax]

Where did you even get this list? Who the hell even made this list? I made an entire post about fascism one page ago and I never found this list.

It's quite simple, I made the list after studying Fascism and looking up some of its key aspects. Some of these include actual Fascist theories (palingenetic ultranationalism is a Fascist theory originating in Britain regarding how the nation will be rebuilt) or economic policies like autarkey, corporatism and National Syndicalism. This list of mine is in no way completely indicative, but these tend to be huge parts of the Fascist regime and Fascists in general.

The checklist you are using isn't good because it can be applied to other movements that are not fascist (the 2nd one, anyways). For example, the Khmer Rouge easily fit almost every single one of those categories and they are Communist.

 

[gimmepie]

So basically it's a list you've arbitrarily made up because it supports your argument. Meanwhile our explanations have been supported by this thing called evidence.

 

[Sir Codin]

So basically it's a list you've arbitrarily made up because it supports your argument. Meanwhile our explanations have been supported by this thing called evidence.

Dammit, man, you ninja'd me.

 

[Nah]

It kinda seems to me like people used "fascist" and "totalitarian" interchangeably.... the totalitarian bit is kind of the most important part of it anyway. I figured that was more what Esper was going for here, but I can't read minds so I don't know what they were going for exactly.

Either way, I'm not sure what's the point in arguing semantic details about it, especially after CarChar's post on the previous page.

 

[gimmepie]

It kinda seems to me like people used "fascist" and "totalitarian" interchangeably.... the totalitarian bit is kind of the most important part of it anyway. I figured that was more what Esper was going for here, but I can't read minds so I don't know what they were going for exactly.

Either way, I'm not sure what's the point in arguing semantic details about it, especially after CarChar's post on the previous page.

Honestly, the two aren't really interchangeable to that extent but the semantics can be confusing to people. In the grand scheme of things it doesn't exactly matter since both of them are terrible, terrible things but the constant claims of "Trump isn't fascist because...." wear thin on me when he checks literally all the boxes.

 

[Thepowaofhax]

So basically it's a list you've arbitrarily made up because it supports your argument. Meanwhile our explanations have been supported by this thing called evidence.

It's not really arbitrary considering those are huge elements of Fascism. All of those were exhibited by Fascist regimes, especially Fascist theories. He's just a right-wing authoritarian; nothing more, nothing less. Authoritarianism is a cancer as well and should be stoped at all costs.

Instead of going by a list that vaguely puts anything that is Authoritarian as potentially Fascist, how about you actually look at the characteristics. After all, the Palingenetic Ultranationalist theory from is required for something to be Fascist as per political theorist Roger Griffin.

 

[gimmepie]

It's not really arbitrary considering those are huge elements of Fascism. All of those were exhibited by Fascist regimes, especially Fascist theories. He's just a right-wing authoritarian; nothing more, nothing less. Authoritarianism is a cancer as well and should be stoped at all costs.

Instead of going by a list that vaguely puts anything that is Authoritarian as potentially Fascist, how about you actually look at the characteristics. After all, the Palingenetic Ultranationalist theory from is required for something to be Fascist as per political theorist Roger Griffin.

I mean, at the least we both agree that Trumpian politics is awful.
I still think that it sounds like a fascist, acts like a fascist and fits the literal definition of a fascist it's a fascist but it seems there's no point of debating semantics when the bottom line is that there's a problem.