Proposal: Druddigon in OU: Why you should all try it (Check post #38)

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

So I guess I should go ahead and write an article as well. Also obligatory proposal post.

Druddigon is that guy who gets constantly parroted about, who everyone hates and thinks "lol it ruined the dragon-type", pointing at it when talking about Gen 5 designs. Not only that, but it also seems to be really lacking compared to most other dragon-types out there. That is until I found a certain mixed set, a set that uses all of Druddigon's qualities and turns it into a decent wallbreaker, one that I couldn't believe what it does to any defensive core. I will go over that set, one which is pretty similar to the RU LO set.

Offensive Life Orb Druddigon

Spoiler:

Druddigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 148 HP / 252 Atk / 108 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Sucker Punch
- Outrage
- Superpower / Fire Punch

Offensive Druddigon's main reason to be used over other Dragon-types such as Garchomp and Dragonite is the ability to one-shot Clefable and Azumarill, as well as destroy Tangrowth with Stealth Rock damage in play. Druddigon can also use Gunk Shot as a pseudo-STAB move, because it hits harder than Dragon Claw since it packs a total power of 156 factoring in Sheer Force.

Gunk Shot is the most important move on Druddigon's part, since it's its main weapon against Fairy-types, especially Clefable and Azumarill, and should always be used when in doubt, due to its surprisingly good power. Factoring in Stealth Rock damage, it OHKOes Tornadus-T, Raikou, Tangrowth, Celebi and most offensively-inclined Pokemon without resorting to Outrage, whose locking-in effect can backfire due to the presence of Ferrothorn, Weavile and Fairy-type Pokemon in the tier, a large problem for many Dragon-type Pokemon, who largely prefer to use Dragon Claw for this very reason. Sucker Punch is another good reason to use Druddigon, due to its ability to revenge kill Alakazam, Latios and Latias after Stealth Rock damage, and can be used to pick off slightly weakened Pokemon, especially Hoopa Unbound and Mega Sceptile. Outrage is the move of choice when facing bulky teams, since it has enough juice to 2HKO Suicune and Hippowdon after Stealth Rock and always 2HKO Tyranitar and Mew, even when the latter uses Will-o-Wisp on the second turn. Lastly, the 4th slot generally goes to a coverage move - both Superpower and Fire Punch break through Ferrothorn, Bisharp and Magnezone, but the former generally takes out Heatran, Chansey and Tyranitar while the latter is useful for Skarmory, Scizor and Jirachi.

Other moves include:

- Earthquake: it is better against Heatran for obvious reasons, while still getting OHKOes on Tyranitar and Bisharp. If Tentacruel and Dragalge are annoying, Earthquake can be used to get past them without resorting to Outrage.
- Flamethrower: better than Fire Punch if you loathe Rocky Helmet damage when facing a Ferrothorn or a Skarmory. If you're using this move, move the HP EVs to Special Attack, but beware of the consequences: you'll get a less bulky Druddigon.
- Hone Claws: really, this move isn't that good due to Druddigon's low speed and overreliance on Sucker Punch, but it can be used in a pinch if you're convinced you don't need any other coverage move and want to muscle through a bulky Pokemon that doesn't really care about any other move (such as Hippowdon or Suicune) or at late-game against a weakened offensive team.

EV Spread

The 108 Spe EVs allow Druddigon to outspeed Support Tyranitar, but mostly Clefable and Choice Band Azumarill, one of the main reasons to justify Druddigon over other Dragon-type Pokemon in this slot. The 148 HP EVs enhance its bulk, allowing it to survive a Moonblast from Clefable. The rest of the EVs go into Attack to make Druddigon hit as hard as possible, especially with the Adamant nature.

Team Options

Druddigon is best paired with offensive Pokemon that can overcome its vulnerability to faster Ice-type attacks and other Dragon-types which prey on its low speed. Mega Altaria is thus a great partner, abusing its immunity to opposing Dragon-type attacks and threatening to set up a Dragon Dance boost on Pokemon such as Dragonite, Latios and even Garchomp, but it has some trouble combatting Mega Charizard X. Mega Diancie is also very effective, since it boasts Diamond Storm and Moonblast against Mega Charizard X and Mega Altaria respectively, despite having problems mega-evolving. Meanwhile, Druddigon can take out Ferrothorn and Heatran easily, threats both fairies hate. Keldeo is an interesting partner which capitalizes on Druddigon's ability to remove Clefable and Azumarill, while Keldeo takes care of Weavile and Mamoswine. Tyranitar and Excadrill pair well with Druddigon, since the former revenge kills Latios and Latias comfortably, while the latter threatens to set up a Swords Dance on faster fairy-types that annoy Druddigon, such as Gardevoir and Altaria.

 

[ddrox13]

You know, you really copied my post should just make this part of my existing article series. Seriously, if 3 or 4 more people would just use that format and title, we could do lots of mons really quickly.

Other than that, Druddy is awesome. I know I used it for a long time on various UU teams, can't quite speak to OU.

 

[bobandbill]

Yeah, I feel that this could fit the "How to Battle with ___" article series ddrox started, and assuming he's fine with it (and it seems it is/idk why he wouldn't be) we can have multiple writers doing entries for those. No point having similar article series that do the same thing after all.

I'm fine with the idea for this specific run. If it's in that article series it's probably best that it follows a similar structure (see the Froslass article for said structure; so intro, term/acronym explanation, summary of the poke, the set itself, breakdown of the set, pros and cons, compare with other options, conclusion).

I'll wait for comments from battling-versed Daily staff too.

 

[Astinus]

Yeah, I'd much rather see this as part of ddrox's article series than as something completely separate yet covering the same thing. Right now, the series is on a pause because ddrox is too busy to write an article. But if you join him in writing for the series, Vodka, we can get articles out more consistently.

Because yes, I would like to see more about UU/NU/RU Pokemon being used well in competitive play.

 

[Aurora]

What exactly is your set? Is it:

Druddigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Sucker Punch
- Fire Punch
- Gunk Shot

or something to that effect?

More importantly, though, what does Druddigon offer over other Dragons in OU, such as Mega Charizard X, Latios, Garchomp, Mega Altaria, or even Haxorus? It's slower, has less bulk, has no method of reliable recovery outside of Leftovers (which you're not running on a Sheer Force set anyway), has to rely on 50/50s if it wants to hit something with Sucker Punch, and has to rely on an inaccurate move to hit Fairy-types. I doubt it's outright bad, but it just seems quite outclassed in comparison to those Pokemon.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

What exactly is your set? Is it:

Druddigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Sucker Punch
- Fire Punch
- Gunk Shot

or something to that effect?

More importantly, though, what does Druddigon offer over other Dragons in OU, such as Mega Charizard X, Latios, Garchomp, Mega Altaria, or even Haxorus? It's slower, has less bulk, has no method of reliable recovery outside of Leftovers (which you're not running on a Sheer Force set anyway), has to rely on 50/50s if it wants to hit something with Sucker Punch, and has to rely on an inaccurate move to hit Fairy-types. I doubt it's outright bad, but it just seems quite outclassed in comparison to those Pokemon.

You don't even need outrage js. Drud's one of those Pokemon who can afford not to run a STAB move at all (and have Gunk Shot as his main move) due to the meta not really caring about it with all the fairies and steels, Sheer Force's ridiculous boost to Gunk Shot and the need for a revenge killing move imo. Drud can RELIABLY lure and kill Clef, Azu and Sylveon + has excellent coverage all-around with a simple moveset of Gunk Shot, Flamethrower (better than fire punch imo), Sucker Punch, and either Outrage, Earthquake or Hone Claws. It also takes HP Ice from electric-types better than most dragons

Druddigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 132 SpA / 124 Spe or 132 HP / 252 Atk / 124 Spe or even your EV spread
Lonely / Adamant Nature

- Gunk Shot
- Flamethrower / Fire Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Outrage / Earthquake / Hone Claws / Superpower

 

[Sirfetch’d]

You don't even need outrage js. Drud's one of those Pokemon who can afford not to run a STAB move at all (and have Gunk Shot as his main move) due to the meta not really caring about it with all the fairies and steels, Sheer Force's ridiculous boost to Gunk Shot and the need for a revenge killing move imo. Drud can RELIABLY lure and kill Clef, Azu and Sylveon + has excellent coverage all-around with a simple moveset of Gunk Shot, Flamethrower (better than fire punch imo), Sucker Punch, and either Outrage, Earthquake or Hone Claws. It also takes HP Ice from electric-types better than most dragons

I would hardly call a Pokemon who needs to hit Gunk Shot "reliable". As Aurora said, it's quite outclassed by nearly every other Dragon all of whom have access to powerful alternate STAB or Iron Head/Poison Jab to hit fairies. I do get that Sheer Force is a nice niche but I just don't think that this Pokemon can work in the OU environment. Do you have replays of this working outside of the lower ladder where anything can work?(I won with Specs Lando T on the low ladder...)

 

[Anti]

piggybacking off chase, replays should be an absolute requirement for this type of article, and that was pretty much my reaction to the froslass piece too.

any persuasive piece needs evidence. replays provide that. they also put these pokemon in a team context which is pretty important. i would propose that anything without replays on at least the mid ladder (at least 1500 elo which is a super low bar already) be needed for these things to be published.

 

[gimmepie]

piggybacking off chase, replays should be an absolute requirement for this type of article, and that was pretty much my reaction to the froslass piece too.

any persuasive piece needs evidence. replays provide that. they also put these pokemon in a team context which is pretty important. i would propose that anything without replays on at least the mid ladder (at least 1500 elo which is a super low bar already) be needed for these things to be published.

I don't know if I'd go that far, I'm never going to be a great battler but I'm perfectly capable of analysing the strengths and weaknesses of a pokemon. I wouldn't say it's unreasonable to request replays in situations where there's doubt though.

 

[illumine]

any persuasive piece needs evidence. replays provide that. they also put these pokemon in a team context which is pretty important. i would propose that anything without replays on at least the mid ladder (at least 1500 elo which is a super low bar already) be needed for these things to be published.

If it's persuasive, it's presumably because what it says is true and described as it is, at which point the rest is superfluous. If people wished to watch replays to make up their minds about things, you could just compile them. If it actually describes the Pokémon accurately, and in brief the writing were fine, then the rest is up to the reader, and throwing in other things would not further substantiate it in any way. It might be best to leave the writing of articles to those who write them, and if people want to play around with a Pokémon, then they can do that and perhaps discuss it on the relevant sub-forum. But in any case these articles are about why the Pokémon are good, and if they say that in any minimal manner then they needn't add other things, unless the Pokémon is good for no reason.

In any case, presumably part of the point of these articles is to encourage at least some overlap with PvP battling using the games, rather than just on PS and such.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

I would hardly call a Pokemon who needs to hit Gunk Shot "reliable". As Aurora said, it's quite outclassed by nearly every other Dragon all of whom have access to powerful alternate STAB or Iron Head/Poison Jab to hit fairies. I do get that Sheer Force is a nice niche but I just don't think that this Pokemon can work in the OU environment. Do you have replays of this working outside of the lower ladder where anything can work?(I won with Specs Lando T on the low ladder...)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-2976959624
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-297699195

And by your logic anything who needs to hit Hydro Pumps is unreliable... All of those mons who need to hit Focus Blasts and Hurricanes are also unreliable.

Gunk Shot isn't that weak either when used as a psuedo-STAB. It hits harder than Jolly Toxicroak, for example.

 

[Salamence™]

IMO its too slow to even hit some of the offensive pokemons in OU.. So unless it gets a buff it will stay in its tier.

 

[Omicron]

If it's persuasive, it's presumably because what it says is true and described as it is, at which point the rest is superfluous. If people wished to watch replays to make up their minds about things, you could just compile them. If it actually describes the Pokémon accurately, and in brief the writing were fine, then the rest is up to the reader, and throwing in other things would not further substantiate it in any way. It might be best to leave the writing of articles to those who write them, and if people want to play around with a Pokémon, then they can do that and perhaps discuss it on the relevant sub-forum. But in any case these articles are about why the Pokémon are good, and if they say that in any minimal manner then they needn't add other things, unless the Pokémon is good for no reason.

In any case, presumably part of the point of these articles is to encourage at least some overlap with PvP battling using the games, rather than just on PS and such.

Something being persuasive doesn't equate to something being true, at all. I'd also argue that adding evidence to support anything you make is never superfluous. It might not be indispensable, but never irrelevant.

These threads are here so people can get opinions, feedback and bounce ideas on what they want to write. Leaving the writing of the articles to those who write them, as you suggest, essentially nullifies the purpose of this thread.

Why and if a Pokémon is good is also only subjective to a degree. Finding a Pokémon from lower tiers that generally is terrible in OU but that works when filling a certain niche doesn't make a Pokémon good. IE. Dark Azelf with Mantine and Delphox stall.

While I don't think the replays should be a requirement for this to be published, I do believe the article could benefit immensely from it. As Anti said, putting things into a team perspective, showing it in action, and how other battlers respond to it.

 

[Anti]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-2976959624
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-297699195

And by your logic anything who needs to hit Hydro Pumps is unreliable... All of those mons who need to hit Focus Blasts and Hurricanes are also unreliable.

Gunk Shot isn't that weak either when used as a psuedo-STAB. It hits harder than Jolly Toxicroak, for example.

The first link doesn't work and the second is against a very poor opponent. He let his Excadrill check get wasted by Tornadus...to poison it.

All the Pokemon who need Focus Blast and Hurricane to hit are unreliable.

Gunk Shot's strength is tangential. You're dancing around his and Aurora's concern. Why would I use this Pokemon over *insert Dragon-type*?

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

The first link doesn't work and the second is against a very poor opponent. He let his Excadrill check get wasted by Tornadus...to poison it.

All the Pokemon who need Focus Blast and Hurricane to hit are unreliable.

Gunk Shot's strength is tangential. You're dancing around his and Aurora's concern. Why would I use this Pokemon over *insert Dragon-type*?

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-297695962

I'll get more replays soon.

Why wouldn't you?

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

Because it offers nothing compared to other Dragons, making it outclassed? I think that's a pretty basic point. I get the fun factor, but a Pokemon that's a waste of a slot, it's not a good idea at all to run.

Except it does and I proved why

With that said, maybe tomorrow I'll start planning this out.

 

[illumine]

Something being persuasive doesn't equate to something being true, at all.

Words have multiple meanings, but otherwise there doesn't seem much point in responding to that.

 

[Anti]

Except it does and I proved why

With that said, maybe tomorrow I'll start planning this out.

you haven't proven anything.

all anyone asked for was very basic "why should you use this mon" justification, not to go down "why SHOULDN'T you!" or "by that logic..." rabbit holes. not that this isn't par for the course when trying to discuss ANYTHING with you, but come on, just give us a summary without being pissy and argumentative. i've reread the thread and i still don't actually know what this mon's selling points are over other dragons, which is presumably the purpose of a proposal in the first place...?

 

[bobandbill]

Some, uh, healthy debate here!

piggybacking off chase, replays should be an absolute requirement for this type of article, and that was pretty much my reaction to the froslass piece too.

any persuasive piece needs evidence. replays provide that. they also put these pokemon in a team context which is pretty important. i would propose that anything without replays on at least the mid ladder (at least 1500 elo which is a super low bar already) be needed for these things to be published.

Like Chase and gimmepie said, while I don't think that replays should be in every article, I do agree that they would be nice to have in and ought to be considered when possible.

Except it does and I proved why

I'm going to have to agree with the others... I don't see any such proof as to why it should be used over the other dragon Pokemon within the OU tier. Even in the last replay the Druddigon used Outrage which you stated isn't required in the set you proposed, so I can't say that supports what you proposed.

I'm all for making articles on niche Pokemon, even in higher tiers, but one thing that ought to be done is justifying why it's used over other options (like was done in the Froslass article - which also admitted that if you didn't want something to fill all the roles Froslass could do, you could use another option). I'd rather not have articles giving sets that can be used but are ultimately ineffective for the most part or aren't justified, and can be done better by another Pokemon or few for that tier.

Alternatively, you could instead write about Druddigon being used more effectively in a lower tier which may not have this issue of 'other Dragon types do what it does better' others have cited. Not every article needs to be in the OU tier after all.

With that said, maybe tomorrow I'll start planning this out.

But approval hasn't been given yet by any of the Daily staff... again, I'd like to see you address the question raised or consider writing about it in a lower tier (assuming it's viable there).

 

[Aurora]

Druddigon is a great Pokemon in RU =)

If you still have your heart set on writing about Druddigon in OU, my advice is talking about a specially defensive set with Roseli Berry. It lets Druddigon set up Stealth Rock on Mega Diancie, which would otherwise flatten it, thanks to Mold Breaker, which negates Magic Bounce, and its access to Glare, which cripples Mega Diancie for the rest of the match.

Something like

Druddigon @ Roseli Berry
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Glare
- Taunt
- Gunk Shot / Dragon Tail

That being said, this is still EXTREMELY niche. I'm not sold on whether or not this is even worth a teamslot considering it is so matchup reliant.