Evolution of Hacking

[gabe_k]

Its Darthatron who is making the Secret DP map Editor.

No, it's not. Darthatron never worked on a DP map editor, nor is he working on one.

I see people saying things like "People souldn't be afraid to use Hex, instead of asking for some map editor". Well, the point here is: If you do GOOD map hacking with hex, like building a whole city or something, that would take A LOT of time.
Come on people, be realistic, tools aren't just for the lazy ones, also for the smart ones. Not using tools will be like repeating actions on programming, instead of using loops.
Hex it's ok, for research and minor changes, but, if we want to do good map hacking, WE ABSOLUTELY NEED TOOLS.
I'm not asking any here. Also some people constantly says: "It's easier ask than actually make one", of course that's right, but no one said it was easy. The only thing that people do is show interest on a tool.
Also, something that bugs me out is the fact that there's a "Secret DP map editor", I mean, if you aren't going to sell your software, there's not a reason for don't make it open source, specially when the tool needs development.

What bugs me even more is the fact that people think there's a "Secret DP map editor". To the best of my knowledge there have been 2 DP map editors developed, neither completed, both lost. One by myself which did little more then read what textures were assigned where, and one by interdpth which I don't know about other then the fact that it is gone.

When I was a new hacker I knew nothing about hex, and very little about programming. However, I wanted to hack DP so I decided to actually learn something without a program holding my hand and telling me it's all going to be ok. Having at one point been as clueless as most current "hackers" I have no sympathy for them. Ignorance is one thing, but most hackers now feel entitled to any research they want, and get extremely angry when they don't get it. When I started hacking DP I didn't have another one of me to annoy with stupid questions, yet I managed to do quite a lot and I think it was a very good experience. Why should I make it any easier for anyone else?

At the moment all I see of the hacking community is a bunch of demanding idiots who are unable to do anything on their own. If you really want to hack DP then it's up you to figure it out. Until the hacking community learns to do work on their own I don't feel like I should have to share with them. However, at the moment all I see is people saying "we'll hack DP when there's a map editor". That map editor's not going to make itself. It would be rather sad to see DP never hacked to it's full potential, but I'd rather see that then I would help make them more tool dependant.

 

[yunghove_teh_best]

No, it's not. Darthatron never worked on a DP map editor, nor is he working on one.



What bugs me even more is the fact that people think there's a "Secret DP map editor". To the best of my knowledge there have been 2 DP map editors developed, neither completed, both lost. One by myself which did little more then read what textures were assigned where, and one by interdpth which I don't know about other then the fact that it is gone.

When I was a new hacker I knew nothing about hex, and very little about programming. However, I wanted to hack DP so I decided to actually learn something without a program holding my hand and telling me it's all going to be ok. Having at one point been as clueless as most current "hackers" I have no sympathy for them. Ignorance is one thing, but most hackers now feel entitled to any research they want, and get extremely angry when they don't get it. When I started hacking DP I didn't have another one of me to annoy with stupid questions, yet I managed to do quite a lot and I think it was a very good experience. Why should I make it any easier for anyone else?

At the moment all I see of the hacking community is a bunch of demanding idiots who are unable to do anything on their own. If you really want to hack DP then it's up you to figure it out. Until the hacking community learns to do work on their own I don't feel like I should have to share with them. However, at the moment all I see is people saying "we'll hack DP when there's a map editor". That map editor's not going to make itself. It would be rather sad to see DP never hacked to it's full potential, but I'd rather see that then I would help make them more tool dependant.

you tell them gabe. Go use a HEX Editor. Its the best scripter(not the best mapper.)

 

[Argent Crusader]

Being honest, you don't have a point Gabe, why do you want to give the tools to the people that know how do the things by themselves? It's kinda pointless, you'll give the tools to someone that actually won't need them...
There's something else, you're not the only one who knows how to develop tools. You may not want to share your knowledge with others, neither want to make tools for make everyone's life happier, but, there are some other people out that actually does.
I don't see the point of trading tools by thanks. If I was the programmer, my payment would be great hacks created with help of my tools.
Keep dreaming Gabe, there are a lot of n00bs, and none of them would be thankful...

 

[gabe_k]

Well at this point it's truly pathetic how many "hackers" actually know how to hack. In a hacking community I expect to find some actual hackers, not just people who are entirely dependent on what other people have done. Tools are a limitation. If all you know how to do is use tools then your hack can only be as good as the tools. You are right, I'm not the only person who knows how to develop tools, but the community has been waiting more then a year for some genius to make DP entirely hackable. Nobody remembers how to actually hack and everyone assumes someone else does. If someone else wants to come and make tools, then that's cool, but it means SOMEONE will actually have to learn how to hack, which as I've said, very people now even know how to.

 

[Argent Crusader]

Now I see your point. I don't care about "people knowing how to actually hack". For me hacking is just a fast way to make your own games. For you is about cracking the game codes and stuff like that.
That's why I'm more with the tools than with the Hex. Being realistic, I don't think that any serious game making company uses a Hex editor, they use tools...

 

[gabe_k]

Yes, but they use more then just map editors and script editors. They have to build the base for the game which is no easy task. Once you've got that the mapping and the scripting are a much smaller part. Unfortunately, we don't have the source they used or the tools they used, so we get the second best thing. A hex editor.

 

[gamefreakfatty]

G483 H45 4 M4P 3D170R!!!!!!!!!!!!!!sixty-eight!!111!!!!!1!!

Well at this point it's truly pathetic how many "hackers" actually know how to hack. In a hacking community I expect to find some actual hackers, not just people who are entirely dependent on what other people have done. Tools are a limitation. If all you know how to do is use tools then your hack can only be as good as the tools. You are right, I'm not the only person who knows how to develop tools, but the community has been waiting more then a year for some genius to make DP entirely hackable. Nobody remembers how to actually hack and everyone assumes someone else does. If someone else wants to come and make tools, then that's cool, but it means SOMEONE will actually have to learn how to hack, which as I've said, very people now even know how to.

Don't be fooled by Gabe, guys. Gabe, the show is over. Stop the charades! I'm sorry. I must reveal your secret...

Look what he said on MSN:

E-Bag says:
did you pm yunghove saying darth was making a map editor?
E-Bag says:
cuz...
E-Bag says:
...i'm making one

"..." is the part of the messages I cut out.

 

[SCV]

Don't be fooled by Gabe, guys. Gabe, the show is over. Stop the charades! I'm sorry. I must reveal your secret...

Look what he said on MSN:


"..." is the part of the messages I cut out.

Even if Gabe is making one, whose to say he will release it to the undeserving general population?

Now I see your point. I don't care about "people knowing how to actually hack". For me hacking is just a fast way to make your own games. For you is about cracking the game codes and stuff like that.
That's why I'm more with the tools than with the Hex. Being realistic, I don't think that any serious game making company uses a Hex editor, they use tools...

Well you wanted to talk about the evolution of hacking. The sad truth is that we now have people who think hacking is just a fast way to make your own games.

That is not hacking. If you look into the evolution of hacking in general you'll see that hacking is much more that what you think it is.

I would say that people like you should be called ROM Editors, rather than ROM Hackers. The ROM Hackers are the people who figure out how the game works.

The tools that the game companies use don't magically appear. Someone has to get knowledge of how the game is going to work so they can make those tools.

That is what we have to do. As Gabe already said, we don't have the source. So that makes it harder on us. However, a hex editor allows us to see all the information that there is. Again, the tools you want aren't going to come out of thin air. Somebody has to make them to make them they have to use a hex editor to study the game. That's the bottom line.

This is like when people who use AR codes call themselves hackers or other people call them hackers. They ARE NOT hackers. The hackers are those who studied the game with a debugger and made the code.

 

[Argent Crusader]

Well, that's a fine definition by me. ROM Editor is ok. That doesn't make us lesser than you hackers (At least the good ones). We take the design part, and you take the function part, how the ROM works.
I think that's perfect, each person should have a differenced job, if they wany of course.
There's no need to I learn a lot about "how the ROM works" if I just want to implement my ideas on a Pokémon ROM. I just need basic stuff.
Also, the people who are in charge of deciphrating the ROM system, usually don't make their own hacks. So, we can say that, if we were a company, you people would be more like programmers and tool designers, and ROM editors are more like graphic designers, script makers, and so... I think that that's how things are.

 

[IIMarckus]

Yes, knowing hex is very important. No, I don't see why any ROM hacker wouldn't want to learn hex or even ASM, because both are really simple and provide huge benefits. But surely lowering the learning curve of ROM hacking can't be a bad thing.

Tools are a limitation.

Tools have a purpose. That purpose is to make creation of hacks easier and quicker.

If all you know how to do is use tools then your hack can only be as good as the tools.

Which brings up another idea: if the tool is good enough, then a hack can be really really cool. Check out Mario's Lost World.

Yes, it's macho and neat to know hex. Yes, it's a good idea (a very good idea) to learn hex if you're doing ROM hacking. Yes, a lot of people here at Pokécommunity don't learn hex because they're unreasonably afraid—I gained fluency in ASM less than a year after I started hacking.

…Where was I going with this? Oh, yeah: "Surely lowering the learning curve of ROM hacking can't be a bad thing."

Well you wanted to talk about the evolution of hacking. The sad truth is that we now have people who think hacking is just a fast way to make your own games.

Which it is… I'm not about to re‐implement an RPG engine when I can make minor changes to a ROM.

That is not hacking.

It is one form of hacking, and a legitimate one.

 

[SCV]

Yes, knowing hex is very important. No, I don't see why any ROM hacker wouldn't want to learn hex or even ASM, because both are really simple and provide huge benefits. But surely lowering the learning curve of ROM hacking can't be a bad thing.Tools have a purpose. That purpose is to make creation of hacks easier and quicker.Which brings up another idea: if the tool is good enough, then a hack can be really really cool. Check out Mario's Lost World.

Yes, it's macho and neat to know hex. Yes, it's a good idea (a very good idea) to learn hex if you're doing ROM hacking. Yes, a lot of people here at Pokécommunity don't learn hex because they're unreasonably afraid—I gained fluency in ASM less than a year after I started hacking.

…Where was I going with this? Oh, yeah: "Surely lowering the learning curve of ROM hacking can't be a bad thing."


Which it is… I'm not about to re‐implement an RPG engine when I can make minor changes to a ROM.It is one form of hacking, and a legitimate one.

Well I think lowering the learning curve is bad. It creates a community for which people who join never have to learn how to "really" hack. This stunts the evolution of hacking.

If we had a community in which all the members were had a good understanding of hex and what they could do to edit a ROM using a hex editor we could move from the GBA generation to the NDS much faster.

The ROM hacking community has become far too dependent on tools.

Its one thing to use the tools because they make the job easier and faster, its a whole different thing to use them because they make it possible.
i.e., we have too many people that are paralyzed without tools. This stunts progress. Therefore the lowering of the learning curve was a bad thing because it created a bunch of "hackers" who are unable to contribute to the progress of pokemon ROM hacking.

Again the point is not that tools should not be used, its that far too many use tools exclusively and far too many never learn how to hack with a hex editor.

 

[IIMarckus]

Well I think lowering the learning curve is bad.

I have a hard time comprehending why you're against making something easier to learn.

It's like those people who try to cover up Linux's shortcomings in user‐friendliness by saying "Oh well, everyone who uses a computer should just be prepared to learn how to program." Of course being technically competent is a huge benefit when using such computers, but that doesn't mean that we should stop making things simpler just so everyone else has to go to the same trouble "Real Hackers" did when they first started out.

 

[SCV]

I have a hard time comprehending why you're against making something easier to learn.

Well did you bother to read the reasoning?

It's like those people who try to cover up Linux's shortcomings in user‐friendliness by saying "Oh well, everyone who uses a computer should just be prepared to learn how to program." Of course being technically competent is a huge benefit when using such computers, but that doesn't mean that we should stop making things simpler just so everyone else has to go to the same trouble "Real Hackers" did when they first started out.

Its very different. The computer industry is at a point where the number of people capable of making significant progress far exceeds the number of people needed.

There are MANY people making the tools that the average computer user uses.

In the ROM hacking community the people who make tools is a small number. So small that progress is very slow. This would not happen if the attitude for making a hack was:
Oh, there's a cool tool for GBA Pokemon ROM hacking. Yay! I can hack.
Oh, there's no cool tools for NDS pokemon ROM hacking. Oh, well I'll wait until there are tools.

It would be much better if they would contribute to the research that would lead to the tools they want.

 

[Darthatron]

Well, that's a fine definition by me. ROM Editor is ok. That doesn't make us lesser than you hackers (At least the good ones). We take the design part, and you take the function part, how the ROM works.
I think that's perfect, each person should have a differenced job, if they wany of course.
There's no need to I learn a lot about "how the ROM works" if I just want to implement my ideas on a Pokémon ROM. I just need basic stuff.
Also, the people who are in charge of deciphrating the ROM system, usually don't make their own hacks. So, we can say that, if we were a company, you people would be more like programmers and tool designers, and ROM editors are more like graphic designers, script makers, and so... I think that that's how things are.

That may be so, but you're not getting the point. How often do the tool makers, and researches get credited for their hours of hard work? The answer is NOT VERY OFTEN! If all the tool makers decided not to make anything anymore, and removed all their tools from the internet, and banned anyone to use them. There would be NO hacks. Same for anyone who ever wrote a tutorial. If they removed the tutorials, then there would be NO hacks.

To classify yourself as a hacker, you need to be able to do the things your tools do, without them.

And you know what makes me really angry? People who look through the Documents/Tutorials section and don't read any guides, they just post "You should get someone to make a tool for this.", They have ALL the information they need, but they still can't do it without some kind of tool.

Now, before I start flaming people, I should go.

*flies away*

 

[gabe_k]

That kind of reminds me of the internet.

 

[Ninja Caterpie]

Eaah...People...
You know guys, you're all getting steamed up about people being inferior hackers because they can't hex edit or ASM code. But really, why? Why to we hack? It's for fun, of course. Then why does it matter how we hack? I mean, seriously...It's a bad thing that the tool makers don't get the credit they need, but, really, why should you look down upon people because they use tools?

The use tools because they either don't have time or are scared of learning hex/ASM. It doesn't really matter, since it's their hack and everything. You guys need to think about why you're going on about tools being crap. I was just taking a look at what they have in the Games Development section, and found this. It really reminds me of what's happening here, don't you think? You need to get over people using tools and...really, grow up.

 

[thethethethe]

You need to get over people using tools and...really, grow up.

Their problem isn't that people are using tools. I don't know of anyone that would attempt to completely make a hack in hex. Their problem is that people are using tools without having at least some idea what the tool actually does to the ROM.

 

[hi sir tomato my password is syvniti]

Eaah...People...
You know guys, you're all getting steamed up about people being inferior hackers because they can't hex edit or ASM code. But really, why? Why to we hack? It's for fun, of course. Then why does it matter how we hack? I mean, seriously...It's a bad thing that the tool makers don't get the credit they need, but, really, why should you look down upon people because they use tools?

The use tools because they either don't have time or are scared of learning hex/ASM. It doesn't really matter, since it's their hack and everything. You guys need to think about why you're going on about tools being crap. I was just taking a look at what they have in the Games Development section, and found this. It really reminds me of what's happening here, don't you think? You need to get over people using tools and...really, grow up.

=Seth-kun•dshayabusa - CSS design
•Wind~ - Emotional Support, lots of help
•My Team - Support, help
•Fans - Playing and spreading the news on this hack
•zel and Time - Inspiration
•PokeCommunity - For hosting

Green Charizard and PHO: For the rom base with the nice tiles
moebius: for the nice Ash OW
WAH/Xiros: for the new D/P tree
Elitemap: for that Dr.willy sprite (battle)
WAH/Cloud: for the new heroine
Sergio--:for the jesse OW + sprite (battle)(recolord by me) + for the palmtree tile
WAH/Pey: For the D/p traps/waterrock
kyledove: For the new D/P house (Big and small)\ Wooden house and other tree tiles and the new pallet
Don Patch: Water plants tiles
Gary93: For the D/P gym tile
Drevilg: For the jessie and james battle sprite (dubbel) + Celebi statue OW
Credits to The people of Pokémon Platinum (G/S/C) for the Falkner OW + Unown tomb tiles
Credits to Zel for the blue sign tile

I'll just qoute these, there both randomly picked, and I just took the credits list from the first two hacks I saw...

I don't even wanna say any thing...

 

[Ninja Caterpie]

...? I was just responding to Darthatron...

That may be so, but you're not getting the point. How often do the tool makers, and researches get credited for their hours of hard work? The answer is NOT VERY OFTEN! If all the tool makers decided not to make anything anymore, and removed all their tools from the internet, and banned anyone to use them. There would be NO hacks. Same for anyone who ever wrote a tutorial. If they removed the tutorials, then there would be NO hacks.

 

[Thrace]

I think Sebbe is trying to point out that people don't even put tools in the credits anymore. I guess that is a bit of a problem but who even looks at the credits anyway?

I don't think that the tool makers should allow themselves to be affected by n00bs showing them disrespect. The only people whose opinions matter should be those people whom you respect. I have to say I totally agree with what Kike has written. Some people are just more creatively inclined and some are more technically inclined. One shouldn't think they are better than the other because in truth both are dependant on each other. Er, did that make sense?