Garchomp is broken ?

[Dark Azelf]

Xcfrisco from Smogon Forums wrote:

let me start by warning everyone that this thread is gonna be very tl;dr. So if you're not interested in READING EVERY SINGLE THING I SAY please don't even bother posting and stop right now and move to a different thread.

Lets being with some background on Garchomp; a Ground/Dragon pokemon whose ability is Sand Veil, which causes an automatic +20% Evasion in Sandstorm. These are his base stats (Garchomp is a 600 Base Stat Total pokemon)

HP:108
Attack:130
Defense:95
Special Attack:80
Special Defense: 85
Speed:102

Garchomp's most notable moves are Swords Dance, Substitute, Earthquake, Outrage, Dragon Claw, Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Fire Fang, Crunch, and Stone Edge. All of the sets on Smogon's analysis index use a combination of 4 of the above moves.

**Why is Garchomp too broken for OU?**

Before I go any further please note that a pokemon's viability in OU has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with how good a pokemon plays in the Uber metagame. A pokemon can completely suck and be outclassed in Ubers (See regular Deoxys) and this does not matter at all. As long as a pokemon is deemed broken in the OU metagame, it'll be banned to Ubers.

A "counter" is a pokemon that takes little risk when switching into an enemy pokemon and provides an immediate threat.

There are three primary reasons why I believe Garchomp is too broken for the OU metagame and should be moved to Ubers.
1.) Garchomp's excellent movepool and STAB options allow it to beat every single one of its "counters"
2.) Garchomp's excellent defenses and only two weaknesses require Ice/Dragon move users to have a lot of stat points in order to OHKO him.
3.) Sand Veil gives Garchomp +20% evasion under Sandstorm, allowing him to beat otherwise guaranteed counters/revenge killers.

Let me explain each of these points in greater detail.

1.)

The fact that no one pokemon can safely switch into Garchomp is an understatement. Let me present to you damage calculations on how much damage an Adamant Choice Band Garchomp with 252 Attack EV's does to its so called "counters." The most common of which are pokemon with a high Defense stat that are not weak to any of it STAB moves (a counter that's weak to any of Garchomp's STAB isn't going to be a counter much longer). The most common of these pokemon are: Cresselia, Bronzong, Skarmory, Gyarados (Intimidate factored), Gliscor, Weezing, Hippowdon, Donphan, Suicune, Slowbro. The EV spreads I used were either the ones meant to counter Garchomp or the one listed first in the analysis index on Smogon's website.

Using MetalKid's online calculator:
Crunch to 20Hp/252Def Modest Cresselia 53-62%
Fire Fang to 252Hp/4Def Relaxed Bronzong 56-66%
Fire Blast to 252Hp/0SpDef Impish Skarmory 64-75%
Stone Edge to 212Hp/180Def Adamant Gyarados 62-73%
Dragon Claw to 252Hp/252Def Impish Gliscor 38-45%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Gliscor 54-64%
Dragon Claw to 252Hp/252Def Impish Weezing 42-49%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Weezing 62-73%
Earthquake to 252Hp/252Def Impish Hippowdon 42-49%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Hippowdon 50-59%
Earthquake to 252Hp/252Def Impish Donphan 45-53%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Donphan 54-63%
Earthquake to 252Hp/252Def Bold Suicune 44-52%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Bold Suicune 53-63%
Crunch to 252Hp/252Def Bold Slowbro 56-65%

Every single pokemon on this list gets 2hko'd by CB Chomp except for Hippowdon (Hippowdon loses to SD Chomp). The ones that are only 2hko'd by Outrage (which is important cause this means Garchomp can't switch out until it ends) are Gliscor, Weezing, Hippowdon, Donphan, Suicune. None of these pokemon are capable of OHKOing Garchomp with these spreads. This means that all the pokemon without a reliable recovery moves WILL lose because they will get 3hko'd while the try to 2hko Garchomp. That means Suicune is out. Gliscor only wins with Roost (depleting Dragon Claw's pp), Donphan has Ice Shard (and NEEDS CB) to 2hko Garchomp before it gets 3hko'd, Weezing can Will o Wisp Garchomp (pray to good that it lands).

And remember this, if you attempt to revenge kill Garchomp by sacrificing one of the above pokes to Outrage, you also pray that garchomp doesn't get confused after only two turns (which means he can switch out again.)

I hope I've illustrated just how dangerous CBchomp is. The only "counter", Hippowdon, loses to the even more popular form of Garchomp because Swords Danced Earthquake will 2hko Hippowdon before you 2hko with Ice Fang.

CBChomp isn't the only version of Garchomp one must counter, however. Keep in mind that it can SD, SubSD that abuses Sand Veil, Scarf, and Chain Chomp. I'm not gonna post any specifics about the above sets (look on the analysis index to get more details) because I'm not as familiar with them as I am with the CB version. But, these sets provide other options for Garchomp to deal with the OU metgame. Garchomp is no one trick pony.

2.)

Now for all the people who like to revenge kill out there (Completely ignoring that Garchomp has the ability to be Choice Scarfed). First you must beat 333 speed if you are sure Garchomp isn't wearing a Choice Scarf. Second, take into account Garchomp's solid defenses. If your not relying on Ice or Dragon moves to OHKO Garchomp, then good luck because you're going to need it! These are the minimum stats one needs to OHKO Garchomp with the following moves, unSTAB'd: Ice pebble, Ice Fang, Ice Punch, Hidden Power Ice, Ice Beam, Dragon Claw, Dragon Pulse (I consider these to be the most common moves for dealing with Garchomp). Additionally, this is assuming Garchomp has absolutely no defensive EV's.

693 Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Pebble
426 Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Fang
370 Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Punch
361 Special Attack Stat to OHKO with Hidden Power Ice
266 Special Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Beam
693 Attack Stat to OHKO with Dragon Claw
567 Special Attack Stat to OHKO with Dragon Pulse

If you want to add in STAB or a Choice Item, divide these numbers by 1.5 or 1.3 for Life Orb. What these numbers suggest is that unless your an Ice type pokemon or going to lock yourself into an Ice move, be prepared to use A LOT of EV's to get your attack stats to these numbers. 2hkoing Garchomp is a little trickier because A.) you have to sometimes account for leftovers, (but just divide these numbers by two) B.) if your faster than Garchomp, must be able to survive an Earthquake or Outrage C.) if your slower than Garchomp, must be able to survive three of the above moves (good luck!)

So if you want to revenge kill Garchomp, be prepared to have amazing attack and speed stats or force yourself to lock into an Ice move (the Choice items can supplement your stat needs). And even once you've met all these requirements...

3.)

Sand Veil grants Garchomp +20% Evasion for free in a Sandstorm. This means that (assuming Sandstorm to be the near-ubiquitous enviroment that it is) at least 1 out 5 times, Garchomp will get a FREE turn because your move will miss. This is also assuming your moves are 100% accurate to begin with! For all those players who attempt to incapacitate Garchomp with WoW, Hypnosis, Sleep/Stun Spore, good luck because your going to need it for those moves to land. Here's a list of how accurate moves are on Garchomp under Sandstorm:

100% accurate moves turn to 80% (Almost all the Ice moves)
95% accurate moves turn to 76% (Ice fang)
90% accurate moves turn to 72% (Draco Meteor, Toxic)
80% accurate moves turn to 64% (Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, etc)
75% accurate moves turn to 60% (Sleep/Stun Spore, WoW)
70% accurate moves turn to 56% (Hypnosis)

So even if you've taken all the necessary precautions, the most dangerous pokemon in the game has at least a 1 in 5 chance to get a completely free turn. Better hope Garchomp isn't abusing Substitute or BrightPowder, that would get insanely frustrating.

There you have it. I've outlined all my reasons for Garchomp being too broken for OU. Now for some counterarguments that I heard in the previous thread.

What about all the countless other pokemon that need more than one "counter"?

Please explain why said pokemon is as dangerous as Garchomp. Most of these double counter pokemon are either really frail or have STAB options much inferior to Garchomp. Remember that Garchomp only has two weaknesses and solid defenses. In addition, Garchomp is immune Thunder Wave and can double his attack at a moment's notice. Please point out all the reasons that another pokemon is even more broken than Garchomp.

But Garchomp is too bad for Ubers and no one will use him there!

Read the big bold thing at the start of this thread (both of them)

Salamence, Tyranitar, Dragonite, etc, are really bulky pokemon that are hard to kill and sweep good, why not ban them?

Like I said, please bring up ways in which said pokemon are superior to Garchomp. Let me give you some examples and how they are worse:
-Salamence, Dragonite, Gyarados have a Stealth Rock weakness. This is HUGE. This means that every time that said pokemon switches in, you are 1/4 of a step closer to completely eliminating them (they have to sacrifice coverage to use Roost, dont bring it up). Garchomp actually resists Stealth Rock.
-The 4 main Dragon Dancers need that boost just to outspeed many of their counters (In other words, most bulky pokemon are really slow). Garchomp's speed is already fantastic as its 2 points above all the countless Base 100 speed pokemon.
-Swords Dance is practically the perfect move to aid a fast pokemon with amazing type coverage. All the other threats wish they were as fast and could double their attack stat at a moments notice.
-Garchomp's STAB options absolutely HURT at 150bp and 180bp and are only resisted by two pokemon, Skarmory and Bronzong. This is why most Garchomp's pack fire moves for unparalled type coverage.
-Tyranitar (IMO the only other debateable poke) has five x2 weaknesses and one x4 weak and is really slow. Garchomp has one x2 weak and one x4.

Blissey [insert any pokemon] are more overcentralizing than Garchomp, why arent we banning them?

Blissey isn't broken, and neither are those other pokemon. If you want to debate this, start a thread and list all the reasons why [insert any pokemon] here is broken.

I love Garchomp!

As do I, its the best pokemon in OU. This doesn't mean he isn't broken though, we have to get rid of our biases in order to create the most balanced OU metagame.

I hoped I addressed every issue as to why I think Garchomp is not only the deadliest pokemon in OU, but too broken as well. Just so this thread doesn't die, I would like it if all people in support of my view, or holding a tournament, or whatever would sign this thread with their opinion.

And if you want to argue against me, then go right ahead :) I'm looking forward to the rebuttals.

P.S. I am more than aware that a similar topic got closed yesterday. I would like people to know that I got permission from multiple Smogon admins to post this thread :p

Yeah, ive wanted to bring this up for a while, i want opinions on the matter, not a flame war. I want a debate, should this thing be moved up to uber ? . However, Read the whole post before posting/or saying stupid things like "Liek zomg, Garchump is easy i beat it with a mudkip !111", In fact read the whole post before posting. Period.

 

[Blargtastic808]

SD Chomp makes ruins out of teams but then again so do a lot of SD users. I guess the big difference is how bloody fast Garchomp is. I've seen him sweep teams 6-0. I myself have been swept almost at the very end of the game where SD Chomp was the guy's last pokemon. He broke through everything I had (noted they were weary from the battle but still). Garchomp is a beast, but I think it's just the typing that keeps it, along with a lot of non legendary dragons, in the OU tier.

I'm a bit undecided on if he should be locked away in uber or not.

I don't know the calcs but can a CB Weavile's Ice shard kill it in one shot?

 

[Sora_8920]

If it has the chance to get even a single SD in, It's godly. Just don't expect it to OHKO Skarmory. But yeah, this guy should 1000000% be moved up to the Uber Tier.

 

[Dark Azelf]

SD Chomp makes ruins out of teams but then again so do a lot of SD users. I guess the big difference is how bloody fast Garchomp is. I've seen him sweep teams 6-0. I myself have been swept almost at the very end of the game where SD Chomp was the guy's last pokemon. He broke through everything I had (noted they were weary from the battle but still). Garchomp is a beast, but I think it's just the typing that keeps it, along with a lot of non legendary dragons, in the OU tier.

I'm a bit undecided on if he should be locked away in uber or not.

I don't know the calcs but can a CB Weavile's Ice shard kill it in one shot?

Ice Shard from a CB weavile ohko's, yes, but your forgetting about its Trait : Sand veil, which makes Ice Shard's accuracy go down to 80%, especially in a Sandstorm Hippowdon, T-Tar, dominated environment. I know Ice Shard will more than likely hit, but stil, if it misses, your pretty much screwed, you could argue that you could use a Jolly, ice Punch, Choice Scarf No Guard Machamp, however thats over centralization and everyone should not have to use that just to counter this. Also theres the possibility of Yache Berry not to forget, and if Weaviles Ice Shard connects, the Yache Berry will save it and then its gonnna own weavile.


Its trait is stupid, who ever at gamefreak gave it that needs shooting, why not Intimidate or something ?



EDIT :@Itachi, errm Fire Blast from Chain Chomp OHKO's Skarmory =/ and SD Fire Fang 2hko's it.

 

[Sora_8920]

Ice Shard from a CB weavile ohko's, yes, but your forgetting about its Trait : Sand veil, which makes Ice Shard's accuracy go down 80%, especially in a Sandstorm Hippowdon, T-Tar, dominated environment. I know Ice Shard will more than likely hit, but stil, if it misses, your pretty much screwed, you could argue that you could use a Jolly, ice Punch, Choice Scarf No Guard Machamp, however thats over centralization and everyone should not have to use that just to counter this. Also theres the possibility of Yache Berry not to forget, and if Weaviles Ice Shard connects, the Yache Berry will save it and then its gonnna own weavile.


Its trait is stupid, who ever at gamefreak gave it that needs shooting, why not Intimidate or something ?



EDIT :@Itachi, errm Fire Blast from Chain Chomp OHKO's Skarmory =/

And how is that related to SD Chomp precisely?

 

[Anti]

If it has the chance to get even a single SD in, It's godly. Just don't expect it to OHKO Skarmory. But yeah, this guy should 1000000% be moved up to the Uber Tier.

I wouldn't say that. It isn't that noticeable.

That being said, I can see where whoever wrote this is coming from. Of course, I'd rather have this than Wobbuffet though ;)

Anyways, Garchomp is so annoying when you have Raikou with 2 CMs in and HP Ice, and Garchomp comes in. You don't know whether you should attack it or run fearing Scarfchomp. So meh, I'm still 50/50 personally. The first time I heard a cry for chomp to ibers when when I had a brief conversation with Syaoran about a month ago.

Granted, Garchomp is easily one of the best OU pokemon. I'll have to sleep on it.

 

[Dark Azelf]

I wouldn't say that. It isn't that noticeable.

That being said, I can see where whoever wrote this is coming from. Of course, I'd rather have this than Wobbuffet though ;)

Anyways, Garchomp is so annoying when you have Raikou with 2 CMs in and HP Ice, and Garchomp comes in. You don't know whether you should attack it or run fearing Scarfchomp. So meh, I'm still 50/50 personally. The first time I heard a cry for chomp to ibers when when I had a brief conversation with Syaoran about a month ago.

Granted, Garchomp is easily one of the best OU pokemon. I'll have to sleep on it.

Yeah, it has that aswell, the element of surprise, so many sets, that beat so many common switch ins, you might be expecting a Scarf Chomp and switch in Gliscor and it will go Chain Chomp on your ass...

And how is that related to SD Chomp precisely?

This whole thread is related to Garchomp, not just S'D Chomp, all versions of it.

Life Orb'd Fire Fang from S'D Chomp actually 2hkos skarm.

 

[Syaoran]

I think Garchomp is the best OU pokemon. Every stat in this pokemon was put in the right place, the typing is excellent, and the ability is just ridiculous. I feel that Garchomp should be a Uber. My rain dance team has a Garchomp, and he does excellent on it, even without his ability activating. Garchomp is just that good.

 

[sims796]

If it has the chance to get even a single SD in, It's godly. Just don't expect it to OHKO Skarmory. But yeah, this guy should 1000000% be moved up to the Uber Tier.

And how is that related to SD Chomp precisely?

I'd like to answer this. First off, Chain Chomp also has Swords Dance. Second, SD Chomp also uses Fire moves. It's stupid not too.

With that done, I can give my opinion.

It would sadden me for it to become uber, but not by much. Why? Well, it was never too much for me to handle. It's the whole reason I got Sceptile in the first place, and his Dragon Claw is the move to kill it with one hit.

However, I have always been lucky with DC. I can see how painful it is. It is too much to prepare for. Revenge killing is the best you can do, and that's if you're lucky. In Sandstorms, he is Godly. Unless that Seer Cold/Lock On strategy works all of a sudden. But it's the fact that we don't know which is which that is so harsh.

 

[Sora_8920]

Yeah, it has that aswell, the element of surprise, so many sets, that beat so many common switch ins, you might be expecting a Scarf Chomp and switch in Gliscor and it will go Chain Chomp on your ass...



This whole thread is related to Garchomp, not just S'D Chomp, all versions of it.

Life Orb'd Fire Fang from S'D Chomp actually 2hkos skarm.

I know. But, tell me, who in the hell keeps in on a Skarmory anyways? You can't.

 

[Dark Azelf]

I know. But, tell me, who in the hell keeps in on a Skarmory anyways? You can't.

I dont know itachi, why would you keep Garchomp in on Skarmory


252 ATT, Jolly Garchomp @Life Orb

Defender HP: 334
Damage: 213 - 250
Damage: 63.77% - 74.85%


On 252 hp / 252 def Impish Skarmory


After a swords dance



Thats why.

 

[sims796]

I know. But, tell me, who in the hell keeps in on a Skarmory anyways? You can't.

What? That doesn't make sense. First off, Skar can't switch in without losing a chunk. Second, because it 2HKO, he wouldn't NEED to switch. Meaning Skarmory is in no way a wall to Chomp, since it has a fire move to take it out.

 

[Sora_8920]

I dont know itachi, why would you keep Garchomp in on Skarmory


252 ATT, Jolly Garchomp @Life Orb

Defender HP: 334
Damage: 213 - 250
Damage: 63.77% - 74.85%


On 252 hp / 252 def Impish Skarmory


After a swords dance



Thats why.

Skarm will not let you just get away with a SD in the hands of a right player, now would they? Roar just says hi. Edit: And nobody keeps a skarm in on a Garchomp, either then to Roar it away.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Skarm will not let you just get away with a SD in the hands of a right player, now would they? Roar just says hi.

You swords dance as skarm switches in on you.

 

[Sora_8920]

You swords dance as skarm switches in on you.

But still, It'a 2HKO, Roar, Roost.

 

[BeachBoy]

My thought with garchomp is that if it becomes uber, overcentralization with other beastly OUs will come in play and then we start debating that whole swirl. Aka if garchomp goes you can bet lucario will be next.

I love garchomp, it's a jet, a shark, a dragon, a pirate, and a friggin beast all in one. What's not to love. Excellent everything... well except special attack =P

It looks like garchomp could become uber, it's incredible. But if we lose the beast, i think we are starting an even bigger problem with over-centralization.... That's what we're trying to avoid, yes?

Lucario and others will step into the light even more with garchomps presence no longer a force to be reckon'd with.
If garchomp leaves many walls use get better, weavile may even take a hit as it doesnt have to revenge kill it anymore.

So what about that?

 

[Dark Azelf]

But still, It'a 2HKO, Roar, Roost.

Fire Fang also has a flinch rate.


And if it Roars, so be it, SD on the switch in again and fire fang it again, it will soon die, especially once its taken residual damage from the rest of your team.

And sooner or later, its


A] Going to roar out your sp.sweeper, so it cant heal and has to switch, so next time it comes into chomp, it dies
B] It Flinches
C] Roar misses, due to Sandstorm being common
D] You get a crit
E] It completely forgoes Fire Fang and uses Fire Blast on its set instead once as you switch in and then again, which required no SD, and beats skarm to a pulp.





@Beachboy, your forgetting Lucario has a counter Weezing and Gliscor, Garchomp doesnt, no sure fire 100% one anyways

 

[sims796]

But still, It'a 2HKO, Roar, Roost.

I'll say the flaws here. First off, if Skar switches in, it's an OHKO on the second hit, since it is that slow. Second, Skar can't afford to waste time with Roost. Third, Skar is as good as dead, enough for a KO from anything else. The damage done to Skar is too great to try and stay in on. Stop trying to make others look dumb, it's backfiring.


Now on to more serious discussion, as to Beach Boy's response, that doesn't make much sense. Lucario is taken out by much, and walled easier. He hasn't the speed like Chomp. These pokes won't get better with Chomp gone, and Weavile with his speed is still a revenge killer.

 

[Dark Azelf]

I'll say the flaws here. First off, if Skar switches in, it's an OHKO on the second hit, since it is that slow. Second, Skar can't afford to waste time with Roost. Third, Skar is as good as dead, enough for a KO from anything else. The damage done to Skar is too great to try and stay in on. Stop trying to make others look dumb, it's backfiring.


Now on to more serious discussion, as to Beach Boy's response, that doesn't make much sense. Lucario is taken out by much, and walled easier. He hasn't the speed like Chomp. These pokes won't get better with Chomp gone, and Weavile with his speed is still a revenge killer.

Big mistake by gamefreak IMO, if your putting this monster in the game =p, tbh, it needs a sure fire counter, Water/Steel type with levitate should do it lol

 

[sims796]

More like an oversight, as if they don't take the time to see the long term damage.