Garchomp Tier Discussion / Debate

[Divine~Deoxys]

I'm not sure about what tier Garchomp shoudl be in,but as far as i can see,Mamoswine is the only possible counter,and Fire Fang=Dead Mammoth.
But CAN POEPEL JSUT DROP THE CLOYSTER TIHNG?IT'S NT GOING TO WORK!AND NEITHER IS DROPPING IN RANDOM UU POKEOMN THAT HAPPEN TO KNOW AN ICE MOVE AND ARE ABLE TO OUTPACE IT,IT'S NOT GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE!GARCHOMP IS OU,SO WE NEED AN OU COUNTER!

 

[Anti]

I'm not sure about what tier Garchomp shoudl be in,but as far as i can see,Mamoswine is the only possible counter,and Fire Fang=Dead Mammoth.
But CAN POEPEL JSUT DROP THE CLOYSTER TIHNG?IT'S NT GOING TO WORK!AND NEITHER IS DROPPING IN RANDOM UU POKEOMN THAT HAPPEN TO KNOW AN ICE MOVE AND ARE ABLE TO OUTPACE IT,IT'S NOT GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE!GARCHOMP IS OU,SO WE NEED AN OU COUNTER!

dude honestly

BTW if you want an OU counter go go go Choice Specs Tangrowth. Oh it counters gyarados too and beats stuff down lol.

Not like having counters is really all that important imo but that probably won't change as much as it should.

 

[ABYAY]

Cloyster isn't a Chomp counter...well, okay, it loses to Yache easily unless you run Ice Beam/Ice Shard together.

Send in Cloy on SD.
Chomp Outrages, putting you in death zone. You Ice Beam, Yache saves.
Ice Shard, chomp dies.

This seems simple, but keep in mind that Cloyster is weak to SR. Also, Garchomp could have Choice Band, meaning that an Outrage means you lose. You can Shard it, but it's no KO. The next thing that comes to mind is the abundance of Fighting moves, meaning that using Cloyster as a physical wall is suicide...Honestly, its only real use is countering DDMence, DDNite, and Garchomp...that's pretty dang restricted if you ask me, and it's weak to SR, meaning that it could fail. There are also better choices for the job.

The Cloyster thing is too situational. Also, ROFLcune, I sense mis-logic.

"Mamoswine is the only possible counter, and Fire Fang = Dead Mammoth."

Bad logic: Earthquake and Outrage do MORE than Fire Fang to Mamoswine, but yeah, Mamo gets hurt.

 

[BeachBoy]

i know counteras aren't that important,jsut i thoguht the hwole Cloyster ithng was oever,thne i cameo ntonight and they restarted it,which i fiound really annoying

What the hell? What the hell? I can't understand a word there!

Guys, I don't know how much this has to be stressed. Let's try to have posts that contribute to the topic overall. Discuss the Garchomp status not "Oh snap Cloyster is back" "Can you spell?"... Discussion points come back to life all the time, by the way.

Thanks.

 

[sims796]

I was hoping that he would elaborate on his post, since I couldn't understand a word. If I can't understand it, I'll say so, since you can't have a discussion like that.

As for ABYAY's senario, Ice Beam needs an investment in Sp.Atk before it can stop Chomp. Weakening it's Chomp walling abilities.

 

[ABYAY]

269 sp.atk is required for a non-STAB Ice Beam to OHKO. For a STAB to KO, Cloyster needs absolutely 0 sp.atk EVs, and it still does about 115% at least. Yache Berry will make the damage to be about 57-65%. At this point, you MUST have Ice Shard, and even then Garchomp can switch out, should it have picked Earthquake. I know Ice Shard without any attack EVs does about 50% at minimum, so you'll be alright in terms of KOing. (Without any offensive EVs in either attack stat.)

Again, I restate though...this is a strong case of "You must have these to KO Chomp." situation. I apologize if I'm "sparking the ashes" of an old conversation, but I feel it's of worth to mention.

 

[sims796]

Well, whadaya know, it's an ice type! I thought it was just water.

Even if, we are speaking as if Chomp is already out. If you switch Cloyster in while Chomp uses SD, you must then pray that Chomp does the bare minimum on it's next attack, which will do about 87%-102%. Not counting Stealth Rock. If you count it, Cloyster is instanly out. Even as a "you must have these to KO Chomp" senario, that won;'t cut it.

I don't see any ash-sparking around here, cept for when Ash beat Lt.Surge. If it relatesto Chomp, I think it deserves a mention. Even if it's just to prove an already proven point.

 

[ABYAY]

Then I must be mistaken; I'm not sure how much a YacheChomp does to the standard Cloyster with Outrage. I only thought it did something along the lines of 60% to Cloyster.

If what you say is true, then isn't it pretty obvious that the argument is null for Cloyster?

 

[Anti]

You know my whole view on this Cloyster thing is "lol Cloyster." It's never seen in OUs and it's certainly not viable there and it's a shaky Garchomp counter to begin with, so yeah. Cloyster lol

If I really wantes a good Garchomp counter I'd use Specs Tangrowth or Scarf Cresselia, both of which I've used to a pretty awesome degree of success on the Smogon server.

 

[sims796]

That wouldn't be "overcentralization", if those are his best "counters"?

 

[shedinjask]

Words cannot describe how disappointed I am in everyone saying 'Yache Berry blocks all five hits of Ice Shard on Shoddy so Cloyster isn't a counter.' That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. It's a well known glitch which has been pointed out in this thread. It will be fixed.

With that out of the way, 252/252 HP/Def Relaxed/Impish Cloyster takes 71% max from SD Outrage. It switches in on the Swords Dance, Icicle Spears/Ice Beams, then Ice Shards for the KO. If Stealth Rocks aren't up, you win barring a CH (I'd use Ice Beam so you have the option of Battle Armor) or a freak Garchomp with Fire Blast over Fire Fang. If Stealth Rocks are up but Sandstorm isn't, it's the same thing. If both are up, you need to slap on Shell Bell (so you're healed before the buffering) and pray Chomp pulls less than 69% to live. All this is extremely specific and you have to be incredibly careful about not letting Cloyster take any damage beforehand.

That is why Cloyster is not a Garchomp counter. It can be used to deal with Garchomp, since most Stealth Rockers are suicide leads and so they can be spun, but ghost types block that and not everyone wants to carry a spinner or even a Cloyster for that matter. Now please, can we drop it?

Specs Tangrowth is also not a Garchomp counter, where does that idea come from? Scarf Cressy could work but is otherwise outclassed and quite mediocre.

 

[Anti]

Well Tangrowth survives even SD Outrage and OHKOs with Leaf Storm, lol

EDIT: Oh, don't bash Scarf Cresselia until you try it. It's a really good set actually.

 

[sims796]

Words cannot describe how disappointed I am in everyone saying 'Yache Berry blocks all five hits of Ice Shard on Shoddy so Cloyster isn't a counter.' That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. It's a well known glitch which has been pointed out in this thread. It will be fixed.Glitch or not. As long as it is still that way, we will take it into account.

With that out of the way, 252/252 HP/Def Relaxed/Impish Cloyster takes 71% max from SD Outrage. It switches in on the Swords Dance, Icicle Spears/Ice Beams, then Ice Shards for the KO. If Stealth Rocks aren't up, you win barring a CH (I'd use Ice Beam so you have the option of Battle Armor) or a freak Garchomp with Fire Blast over Fire Fang. If Stealth Rocks are up but Sandstorm isn't, it's the same thing. If both are up, you need to slap on Shell Bell (so you're healed before the buffering) and pray Chomp pulls less than 69% to live. All this is extremely specific and you have to be incredibly careful about not letting Cloyster take any damage beforehand.

Defender HP: 304
Move Damage: 241 - 284
Damage: 79.28% - 93.42%


On a Jolly Garchomp, with max Atk, SD up using Outrage on a Cloyster with a +defence nature, & max HP & Def. If Chomp is Adamant for whatever reason, it jump to 87-102%.


That is why Cloyster is not a Garchomp counter. It can be used to deal with Garchomp, since most Stealth Rockers are suicide leads and so they can be spun, but ghost types block that and not everyone wants to carry a spinner or even a Cloyster for that matter. Now please, can we drop it?If you want it to be dropped, it has to stop being bought up in the first place.

Specs Tangrowth is also not a Garchomp counter, where does that idea come from? Scarf Cressy could work but is otherwise outclassed and quite mediocre.

Yeah, all that. We can all agree, Cloyster is no Chomp counter, especially when the rest of the metagame can beat it.

 

[Archer]

Shedinjask, Tangrowth survives an SD Outrage and can OHKO with Leaf Storm. EQ resistance also helps it switch in more easily.
Switch it in the first time Chomp comes in. You either take an unboosted hit and survive the next one or you switch in on an SD, so it still can't EQ. It can switch in and poses a threat. Simple.
But, yeah. Cloyster doesn't cut it this gen.

I still can't make up my mind on Chomp....

 

[sims796]

Shedinjask, Tangrowth survives an SD Outrage and can OHKO with Leaf Storm. EQ resistance also helps it switch in more easily.
Switch it in the first time Chomp comes in. You either take an unboosted hit and survive the next one or you switch in on an SD, so it still can't EQ. It can switch in and poses a threat. Simple.
But, yeah. Cloyster doesn't cut it this gen.
Boy, not this again. It won't work.Not about Tangrowth, but on your senario. Of course you'll switch in as soon as it comes up. But, if you come in on SD, you feel pain from a boosted hit. Which is over 72%, if you're lucky.

However, if you are talking about a senario with Tangrowth, it's different.
I still can't make up my mind on Chomp....

Yeah. Cloyster won't cut it. Case closed.

 

[ABYAY]

Garchomp needs to meet its maker and meet Flish, made by D_A...

Now that Failster is out of the way, who wants to bring up another potential counter? (SpecsGrowth and Scarfselia have proved to be effective, fortunately.)

 

[sims796]

Unfortunately, naming only two pokemon counters can be seen as overcentralization.

 

[Anti]

Unfortunately, naming only two pokemon counters can be seen as overcentralization.

What?

So CB Gallade has one counter in Spiritomb, so is that over centralization? I mean DD LO Gyarados doesn't have many counters either, that doesn't mean it or Gallade or Garchomp or anything else is over centralizing the metagame. That term is getting thrown around a lot but half the time it's used incorrectly.

Over centralization is basically when a pokemon centralizes the metagame too much, or forces your team to prepare and adapt to it so heavily that it cripples teams, and without adapting that heavily, said threat will destroy your team almost inevitably. Having few counters does not ensure over centralization...in fact, I question if there is much of a link at all considering CB Gallade has one counter in Spiritomb, who isn't exactly on every team.

EDIT: Or as Archer put it on shoddy, over centralization is "Where the entire metagame shifts to cope with a single pokemon."

Thank you Deoxys-S!

PS: Cloyster lololololol

 

[sims796]

What?

So CB Gallade has one counter in Spiritomb, so is that over centralization? I mean DD LO Gyarados doesn't have many counters either, that doesn't mean it or Gallade or Garchomp or anything else is over centralizing the metagame. That term is getting thrown around a lot but half the time it's used incorrectly.

Over centralization is basically when a pokemon centralizes the metagame too much, or forces your team to prepare and adapt to it so heavily that it cripples teams, and without adapting that heavily, said threat will destroy your team almost inevitably. Having few counters does not ensure over centralization...in fact, I question if there is much of a link at all considering CB Gallade has one counter in Spiritomb, who isn't exactly on every team.

Apparently, you misunderstood what I said. Again. I'll explain. Try not to make me post again, as I am very sleepy.

CB Gallade is very different, as prediction will handle it just as well. The same cannot be said about Garchomp. I never said that having two counters were overcentrailization, hell, I don't even know where you got that from. I did say that naming two pokemon like SpecsGrowth and ScarfCressy as counters won't cut it at all, and needing to add it to counter Chomp is half arsed indeed. Therefor, naming couters is very much moot. No matter how good the supposedly are in battle.

. Posts have been given about how Chomp can destroy a team, I won't waste my time elaborating, so don't waste yours, as almost everything on this thread has been theorymon, from both parties.

I'm going to sleep now, because I'm getting snippy for noparticular reason. Good night.

 

[.]

The main beef with Garchomp is that Sand Veil, sure, it may not be a 'great' argument, but it's still an argument. Comparing Garchomp to Gliscor is pure stupidity. Gliscor does not have a Base 180 Power move that hits everything except for steel for neutral. Nor does he had Base 130 Attack. He also has a very limited space at times, SD and Roost taking two slots. If he was a straight up sweeper, he'd be an inferior Garchomp, and we know this.

I'm a little tired of losing a match over Sand Veil forcing my HP Ice, or Ice Shard, to miss. It's not fair. It's CLEARLY gg in my favor, and I lose becase of pure luck. That's what it is, pure luck. How unfair is it to decide and entire match on a hax ability? Very unfair if you ask me.


Also, YAY 1000 posts ^__^