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[heavy controversial debate warning] Evolution real or not?

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    I am not against evolution but I ran into a guy who claimed that all evidence of evolution is shaky at best. Claimed that the Earth is not that old and fossils could be anything. His argument seems a little farfetch'd.
     
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    Nah

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    What does this person mean by ?fossils could be anything??
     
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    They meant that scientists misinterpreted fossil bones and they could be fake, not as old as we thought and possibly from dragons ('m dead serious btw, if you think I'm trolling)
     
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    twocows

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  • I mean anything's possible, but evolution is the most likely answer to the data we have available. When all signs point to one conclusion, you don't dismiss the conclusion because you don't like it.

    It is healthy to question established science, despite what anyone might say. Sometimes established science is wrong, and that's just fine; that's part of the process, and finding out we were wrong about something brings us closer to the truth. Our theories are not universal truths, they're the sum of our research into a subject and the conclusions we've drawn based on that research. There are plenty of examples in history where the accepted theories of the day turned out to be wrong. So of course you shouldn't assume that something is true just because it is widely taught.

    However, there's a big difference between skepticism as a means to seek the truth and skepticism born from distaste. Motivation is important because bias often leads us to use bad methodology and reach premature conclusions. When led by our biases, we often seek out things that confirm our bias while ignoring or rationalizing things that deny it. This can cover up important information that can lead us closer to the truth.

    The methodology most modern science uses incorporates skepticism into the process in order to minimize the effects of bias. Scientists seek out reasons to disbelieve their own theories at every point in the process and solicit feedback from others to catch anything they might have missed. This process isn't perfect; sometimes even people well-versed on a subject can miss things, and sometimes assumptions born from belief in the established models can blind people to alternatives.

    However, the rigor involved in the process ensures that in almost all cases, when oversights do occur, they are non-obvious and not the kind of thing you'd figure out after a few hours of light reading. It's important to point out that most people aren't well enough versed on a subject to offer any kind of meaningful criticism on it. A few hours of browsing information dumbed down for general consumption doesn't give you the background necessary to be able to add anything of import to a discussion between professionals, and this goes for just about any moderately complex subject.

    So while yes, I do entertain the idea that perhaps the theory of evolution (or any established scientific theory) is flawed in some minor or even major way, I don't think that if the story breaks that it will be from people with a passing familiarity of the subject repeating snippets they read online. It'll probably break from professionals following established practices and methods testing their own theories for inaccuracies or oversights.
     

    Midnight Umbreon

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  • Probably th e most ironic thing, is that evolution was "discovered" on the theory of spontaneous generation, the very same year that Francesco Redi disproved it. Honestly, how could something as complex as the human body just be created by a random inccident, or on accident. Seriously you tell me. consider how small every fiber of our being is exactly? also recently scientists have learned that they Really don't know much about anything. No science proves that evolution cannot be real, and anything else I have to say would be to controversial, and I don't want to bring up my personal beliefs and religion in to this. ;-)
     
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  • Probably th e most ironic thing, is that evolution was "discovered" on the theory of spontaneous generation, the very same year that Francesco Redi disproved it. Honestly, how could something as complex as the human body just be created by a random inccident, or on accident. Seriously you tell me. consider how small every fiber of our being is exactly? also recently scientists have learned that they Really don't know much about anything. No science proves that evolution cannot be real, and anything else I have to say would be to controversial, and I don't want to bring up my personal beliefs and religion in to this. ;-)

    This post is confusing. Are you for or against the notion of evolution?
     

    Lycanthropy

    [cd=font-family:Special Elite;font-size:16px;color
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  • They meant that scientists misinterpreted fossil bones and they could be fake, not as old as we thought and possibly from dragons ('m dead serious btw, if you think I'm trolling)

    While it's true that we can often only guess at the exact appearance of dinosaurs and other prehistoric animals (though models based on living animals allow scientists to make quite an informed guess), science has proven that fossils are indeed much older than a couple of millennia. Methods such as Carbon Dating can even find a pretty accurate estimate on how old a fossil for example actually is.

    The dragons are an interesting theory for sure, but personally I find the former existence of giant lizards easier to believe than that of giant lizards who also breathe fire.
     

    Midnight Umbreon

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  • This post is confusing. Are you for or against the notion of evolution?

    Against.

    Oh and lycan, carbon dating is an incorrect thing it can only go back some thousand years, they've been feeding you lies. I think it's less than 30,000 years? Seriously I never thought I'd actually get to use this in a Real argument. It's so exciting!
     

    Mewtwolover

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  • Evolution is real.
    Honestly, how could something as complex as the human body just be created by a random inccident, or on accident.
    See ancient astronaut theory.
    Oh and lycan, carbon dating is an incorrect thing it can only go back some thousand years, they've been feeding you lies. I think it's less than 30,000 years?
    Carbon dating can go back 75,000 years but it isn't the only dating method.
     
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    Midnight Umbreon

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  • Evolution is real.
    See ancient astronaut theory.
    Carbon dating can go back 75,000 years but it isn't the only dating method.

    I WAS RIGHT!!!! Hahahahahhaahahah. Yissssssssssssssssssss.
    See, Satan was able to convince you that aliens were real, so it wasn't to far from the "truth" that they put us here. Also, you have nothing behind any of your statements, and plus, lycan specifically mentioned CD as the method that they used to date the fossils.
     

    Vragon2.0

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  • I WAS RIGHT!!!! Hahahahahhaahahah. Yissssssssssssssssssss.
    See, Satan was able to convince you that aliens were real, so it wasn't to far from the "truth" that they put us here. Also, you have nothing behind any of your statements, and plus, lycan specifically mentioned CD as the method that they used to date the fossils.

    1) Why do the statements have nothing behind them. Why are the stuff they recommend invalid or non-helpful for their argument.

    2) So aliens aren't real, but Satan is? It's kinda similar since we haven't really proven either to exist and before you go with the "truth" remark, we're in a debate regarding history and our findings in it. It can be said that God created it this way or whatnot, but the overall point is "how" we got from then to now.

    3) Okay, so mind showing some sources in regards to CD, since everyone in this thread hasn't given any really credible source regarding CD that's official and it saddens me.

    4) I drink all y'alls milkshakes.
     

    Nah

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    The dragons are an interesting theory for sure, but personally I find the former existence of giant lizards easier to believe than that of giant lizards who also breathe fire.
    So as dragonkin I'd like to clear up something here. Manaketes generally don't share this information with humans, as most of us like to watch and laugh as humans argue over this but: dragons and dinosaurs share a common ancestor in the same way that humans and apes do, some "dinosaur" bones found over the years may have indeed been dragon bones instead. Millions of years ago we used to live together, sort of like how there were initially a few different "human" species alive at the same time. However, the dinosaurs eventually came to grow jealous of our ability to fly and breathe various elements and our longevity and so decided to wage war on us. As you can see, they lost that war. That impact crater near the Yucatan Peninsula was not actually caused by a meteor impact, but was rather the site of the final battle where Naga II crushed the last of the dinosaur military and finally ended the war. It was rather long and bloody--the dinosaurs insisted on fighting to the last 'saur--so the war caused their extinction.

    .....ok so now that i'm done shitposting, I'll address a few actual things:


    First thing is that it is indeed true that radiocarbon dating only allows for accurate dating in the tens of thousands of years range. As I understand it, radioisotope dating basically works via the half-life of the element (or more specifically, the particular isotope of the element being used). Carbon-14 (which is iirc the isotope used in radiocarbon dating) has a half-life of something like ~6000 years. So there's only so far back that you can go for dating with radiocarbon dating. The thing you're trying to date also has to have carbon in it.

    In geology, other elements are used for the radioisotope dating of rocks, such as rubidium and strontium. These elements have way longer half-lives (on like the order of millions of years) and so are used for dating of rocks instead of carbon. You don't necessarily have to test the fossil itself, as it should be the same age as the rock itself. There's limitations to this however, as you can only radioisotope date igneous rocks. Sedimentary and metamorphic rocks are formed from older rocks and so will not likely give you an accurate age.

    In order to say that the age of the Earth is different than we currently think it is and that geologic history is not on the scale of time we currently think it is, there would need to be discovered some sort of fundamental flaw in our understanding and use of radioisotope dating or something. And whatever other methods we might use for absolute dating, I don't know if there's others besides radioisotope.

    There's also relative dating, in which you can get a general idea of what's older and what's younger than each other just by looking at it, but not assign numbers.

    The next thing to point out would be that evolution does not deal with the origin of life on planet Earth at all; it merely gives an explanation for the changes in the fossil record (which is not really something that's misunderstood or faked) we see. It deals with life after it began on the planet. And when the world's had billions of years to change, it's not so crazy to think that any sort of life form we've seen so far could exist and sort of descend from one another. You throw darts at a dartboard long enough, and you'll eventually hit the bullseye. Keep making minute changes to something (or significant changes every once in a blue moon), and after a long enough time, it'll be way different from what you started with.

    But that's also probably part of why some people have difficulty accepting the idea. To something as short-lived as a human, millions or billions of years can be immensely difficult to fathom. But there's some examples of evolution occurring in a much shorter span of time. Look at dogs or antibiotic resistances in bacteria. Those aren't perfect examples, but I thought I'd throw them out there.
     
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  • I'm actually a Christian, myself, but I'm not totally against evolution. I was taught it, and even took college level anthropology courses in which our professor went into more detail about it.
    I don't think ones religious convictions should be seen as "shitposts" and joked about though, but also if you don't believe in evolution, what's your sources on creation?
     

    Midnight Umbreon

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  • Twere someone to make a discussion about why dragons were real, I would kick ass in proof unless you don't believe the bible. My question is why can't you fathom the fact that the earth is actually only 7,000 something years old? methinks it's you, not me, see I can sort of imagine eternity, and the thought is terrifying it's also exciting. And um, joker, how can you be Other gendered and be christian? damn that's two new threads now
     
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    Twere someone to make a discussion about why dragons were real, I would kick ass in proof unless you don't believe the bible. My question is why can't you fathom the fact that the earth is actually only 7,000 something years old? methinks it's you, not me, see I can sort of imagine eternity, and the thought is terrifying it's also exciting. And um, joker, how can you be Other gendered and be christian? damn that's two new threads now

    Anyone can be a Christian. One's gender identity isn't relevant in relation to religious affiliation, may I just point out. Now, to focus on the topic at hand, you can believe whatever you please. However, you are continuously claiming that the world is a mere 7,000 years old yet you have absolutely no legitimate proof to support your statements. Furthermore, you have no credible sources and because of this your argument is incredibly invalid. At this point you are only making yourself look incredulous.

    As a Protestant Christian myself, I wholeheartedly believe in the theory of evolution. You can deny science all you want but there is so much evidence to support the theory, hence why I believe in it. Moreover, I believe that the earth is millions if not billions of years old, as countless scientists have suggested.
     
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    Nah

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    I don't think ones religious convictions should be seen as "shitposts" and joked about though
    oh, I'm not trying to mock anyone's religious beliefs, I'm not into that, sorry if it seemed that way
     

    Midnight Umbreon

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  • Anyone can be a Christian. One's gender identity isn't relevant in relation to religious affiliation, may I just point out. Now, to focus on the topic at hand, you can believe whatever you please. However, you are continuously claiming that the world is a mere 7,000 years old yet you have absolutely no legitimate proof to support your statements. Furthermore, you have no credible sources and because of this your argument is incredibly invalid. At this point you are only making yourself look incredulous.

    As a Protestant Christian myself, I wholeheartedly believe in the theory of evolution. You can deny science all you want but there is so much evidence to support the theory, hence why I believe in it. Moreover, I believe that the earth is millions if not billions of years old, as countless scientists have suggested.

    I have enough proof, but to one who doesn't have ears to hear, it would mean nothing. And as a protestant christian, why do you believe that? Scientists are liars, and really no nothing about anything. Also what??? God created man on the seventh day, out of dust so... Please elaborate. Oh, and I believe science is real, the science that agre es with God's word
     
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  • I have enough proof, but to one who doesn't have ears to hear, it would mean nothing. And as a protestant christian, why do you believe that? Scientists are liars, and really no nothing about anything. Also what??? God created man on the seventh day, out of dust so... Please elaborate. Oh, and I believe science is real, the science that agre es with God's word

    If you don't share your supposed proof we're left to assume it doesn't exist.
     
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    I have enough proof, but to one who doesn't have ears to hear, it would mean nothing. And as a protestant christian, why do you believe that? Scientists are liars, and really no nothing about anything. Also what??? God created man on the seventh day, out of dust so... Please elaborate. Oh, and I believe science is real, the science that agre es with God's word

    You forget that most Christians reject the notion of the creation story. Various denominations within Christianity have openly referred to the creation story as simply a metaphor rather than actual fact. Even the pope of the Catholic church declared that he supports the theory of the big bang as well as evolution and countless other churches have openly embraced science. As I stated before, your hypothesis lacks any sort of scientific basis, as does your apparent belief that "scientists are liars", which is quite an absurd allegation to make.
     
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