5th Gen New Types?

[JAK3]

Where did the Light type thought come from, Wasn't it fan-made in a hack? I think it would be a cool Idea, but it just would unbalance everything out.

 

[Myles]

Oh, well, if you were going with Light = physical light, Solrock would fit, but only in that Lunatone should then get Dark instead of Psychic. But really the Psychic on Solrock isn't to do with the fact it's a sun imo.

Cresselia would make a good Light, in the 'good' sense. After all, it is the counterpart to Darkrai. But I'd say Cresselia's Psychic is more because that's the default state of legendaries... for some reason.

 

[EJ]

Good, good we're understanding each other.

However I'm leaning towards the idea that Cresselia is Psychic because Darkrai is Dark. Essentially I'm stating that psychic types already cover the light type bases. Light screen, reflect, etc. Also there was one thing in particular you said that caught my attention: "Energy blasts, healing moves, physics-distorting moves, etc" are all seen in the psychic type...

 

[BleuVII]

@An-chan

Thanks for the detailed post. I can respect opinions that are stated without attacking someone. And I think all of your points are valid. Good job on that post.

I do want to address a few things though.

First, I can agree that Dark was made to balance out Psychic, but where did Steel come from? I think they added it just to give some variety. The only type it even resembles is Rock, but not even that so much.

Second, there was an imbalance in representative pokemon when those two types came out too. When Dark was introduced, the only dark pokemon were Umbreon, Murkrow, and Tyranitar. Neither of those evolved further.

Then take Steel: it had two new pokemon (Forretres and Skarmory [version exlusive]), two re-typed pokemon (Magnemite and Magneton), and two cross-evolutions with the same stats but different types (Steelix and Scizor). The only non pseudo-legendary or legendary that was introduced in the next generation was Mawile. That means most of our Steel types come from Gen IV.

So adding a Light type (or a Glass/Crystal type, which is an idea that grows on me hourly) wouldn't mean that most of the new pokemon would have to be light. You would really only have to re-type a couple of pokemon, add in an evolution or two, add one or two new pokemon (like a counterpart to Zorua and Zoroark), and possibly add in a light-type legendary. That's 7-8 pokemon total, and only 5-6 that would be new. That's doable.

 

[Kipher]

Blahpsemy, the Rock-Paper-Scissor routine is a routine that will not be changed. Final.

 

[Sammuthegreat]

@An-chan

Thanks for the detailed post. I can respect opinions that are stated without attacking someone. And I think all of your points are valid. Good job on that post.

I do want to address a few things though.

First, I can agree that Dark was made to balance out Psychic, but where did Steel come from? I think they added it just to give some variety. The only type it even resembles is Rock, but not even that so much.

Second, there was an imbalance in representative pokemon when those two types came out too. When Dark was introduced, the only dark pokemon were Umbreon, Murkrow, and Tyranitar. Neither of those evolved further.

Then take Steel: it had two new pokemon (Forretres and Skarmory [version exlusive]), two re-typed pokemon (Magnemite and Magneton), and two cross-evolutions with the same stats but different types (Steelix and Scizor). The only non pseudo-legendary or legendary that was introduced in the next generation was Mawile. That means most of our Steel types come from Gen IV.

So adding a Light type (or a Glass/Crystal type, which is an idea that grows on me hourly) wouldn't mean that most of the new pokemon would have to be light. You would really only have to re-type a couple of pokemon, add in an evolution or two, add one or two new pokemon (like a counterpart to Zorua and Zoroark), and possibly add in a light-type legendary. That's 7-8 pokemon total, and only 5-6 that would be new. That's doable.

I agree with most if not all of what you've said, except I thought I should point out that Houndour and Houndoom were Gen.II as well. Just getting in before that is used as a counter-argument.

What we're all disagreeing on is the idea of "Light", meaning "Holy", being a valid counterpart to Dark. Which is why I suggested the "Aura-type" as a more accurate name for what I would consider the Light-type.

When it comes to the idea of re-typing, or introducing a whole swathe of over- or under-powered Light-type Pokemon, I think we can all agree that it's pretty unlikely Gamefreak would be so clumsy, especially given that the Steel- and Dark-types were far from overly abundant when first introduced. And as for unbalancing the metagame... I know a lot of the more verbose anti-Light-type posters have stopped arguing this, but the idea that a new type would unbalance the metagame is simply ridiculous. Gamefreak are better than that.

 

[Post Office Buddy]

Everyone always forgets Sneasel. ;_; It was a second generation dark type, too.

But anyway, it doesn't really matter. You can say that GameFreak wouldn't create an imbalance in the metagame all you want, but what it boils down to is how the players of the game use the new Pokemon and the new combinations available. It isn't "simply ridiculous" to think that it's possible. It's perfectly feasible to think so. They did it in the first generation with the Psychic type. It won't necessarily happen if they do add in a new type, but it's a definite possibility. Also, don't bother trying to tell me that the first generation is completely different, that GameFreak couldn't foresee how dominant Psychic types would be in the first generation, because I can easily apply the same argument to this case.

 

[BleuVII]

I agree with most if not all of what you've said, except I thought I should point out that Houndour and Houndoom were Gen.II as well. Just getting in before that is used as a counter-argument.

What we're all disagreeing on is the idea of "Light", meaning "Holy", being a valid counterpart to Dark. Which is why I suggested the "Aura-type" as a more accurate name for what I would consider the Light-type.

When it comes to the idea of re-typing, or introducing a whole swathe of over- or under-powered Light-type Pokemon, I think we can all agree that it's pretty unlikely Gamefreak would be so clumsy, especially given that the Steel- and Dark-types were far from overly abundant when first introduced. And as for unbalancing the metagame... I know a lot of the more verbose anti-Light-type posters have stopped arguing this, but the idea that a new type would unbalance the metagame is simply ridiculous. Gamefreak are better than that.

I think we've been in agreement for a couple of pages. Actually, I really like the sound of "Aura" type. The only thing people would argue there is that "Aura Pokemon" is the name of Lucario, who is Fighting/Steel. At least referring to it by "Aura" instead of "Light" would cut down on the number of people who read the first post and then post their opinions on why light-type sucks at the end.

And Houndour, Houndoom, and Sneasel... how did I forget those?! Well, I know how I did. I never played Gen II, and I was going by National Pokedex number. For some reason, I momentarily forgot that Gen 3 started at 252, not 202.

 

[ichuesther]

I think adding a light type would be fine.
Could be kind of confusing at first, but people will catch on.

 

[Azzurra]

I'm sure a concrete type would be interesting.

 

[Myles]

Also there was one thing in particular you said that caught my attention: "Energy blasts, healing moves, physics-distorting moves, etc" are all seen in the psychic type...

There in a lot of other types too. Healing moves are in Water, Normal, Grass, etc. Physics-distorting is in Normal and probably others. And energy blasts are in everything.

But anyway, it doesn't really matter. You can say that GameFreak wouldn't create an imbalance in the metagame all you want, but what it boils down to is how the players of the game use the new Pokemon and the new combinations available. It isn't "simply ridiculous" to think that it's possible. It's perfectly feasible to think so. They did it in the first generation with the Psychic type. It won't necessarily happen if they do add in a new type, but it's a definite possibility. Also, don't bother trying to tell me that the first generation is completely different, that GameFreak couldn't foresee how dominant Psychic types would be in the first generation, because I can easily apply the same argument to this case.

It certainly isn't a solid argument either. Every change to the game could cause an imbalance, especially major ones. Revolutionary new moves, abilities, the physical-special split, etc. Psychic may have been imbalanced then, but I'm pretty sure they had a lot smaller team, a lower budget and a harder system to program for. This shows in the large amount of glitches, the severe underpowering of the Bug and Fighting types, the fact that Ghost was accidently not super-effective to Psychic, etc. They haven't made any major mistakes since. I'm sure it's unlikely for it to go wrong again.

Also remember that Psychic had one weakness, Bug, and that type sucked and had very few actual Bug-type moves. As long as Light is given enough weaknesses, the only risk would Light itself being underpowered.

 

[EJ]

There in a lot of other types too. Healing moves are in Water, Normal, Grass, etc. Physics-distorting is in Normal and probably others. And energy blasts are in everything.

So if these moves already exist in other types then I suppose a light type is unlikely? ; )

 

[Myles]

Light-type versions of them though. There's basically a Water-type version of most Fire moves and vice versa. Dragon moves all have their non-Dragon counterparts (e.g. Twister = Gust, Dragon Breath = Flamethrower), etc.

 

[Post Office Buddy]

It certainly isn't a solid argument either. Every change to the game could cause an imbalance, especially major ones. Revolutionary new moves, abilities, the physical-special split, etc. Psychic may have been imbalanced then, but I'm pretty sure they had a lot smaller team, a lower budget and a harder system to program for. This shows in the large amount of glitches, the severe underpowering of the Bug and Fighting types, the fact that Ghost was accidently not super-effective to Psychic, etc. They haven't made any major mistakes since. I'm sure it's unlikely for it to go wrong again.

You only reinforce my argument when you say that every change to the game can create an imbalance. Also, please be sure to read what I said in the correct context. I did say that it won't necessarily happen again, but it's still a possibility.

The first generation wasn't the only generation to have a large amount of glitches in it. The second generation had quite a few of its own, and at that point they definitely had a larger team and budget to work with. Also, the bug type is still severely underpowered, granted not as much as before, but still. It can't really compete with the big dogs, as the saying goes.

It's true that they haven't made any mistakes since, but lets look at each generation separately.

In the first generation, Psychics were dominant because they lacked any opponents that could keep them in check.

When the second generation came out, the Dark type was introduced to balance out the metagame, preventing Psychic types from destroying anything and everything they battled. The Steel type was also introduced, which was resistant to Psychic, thereby limiting Psychic's powers even more. Some new attacks were introduced as well, giving types that were previously underpowered more variety and usefulness.

Now, onto the third generation. Abilities were introduced, which made battles more interesting, both in-game and competitively. Natures were also introduced, which made a Pokemon's stats have a wider min/max range. IV's were changed from ranging from 0-15 to 0-31, and EV's were limited to only 510 total per Pokemon. All of these changes were major changes, but they only made the metagame more interesting. There was more effort involved in creating the perfect team than there was in any previous generation.

The fourth generation didn't really introduce anything new aside from some new abilities, new attacks, and a few new type combinations. There were no huge changes to the metagame, which discounts the statement someone asserted earlier that the metagame would need a major change every generation to stay interesting.

Now, why did I feel the need to list all of the changes from each generation? Because I feel it's necessary to point out that the only time in the history of the game that a type was added, it was to correct a problem. I also felt it was important to point out that the metagame needs no major changes to stay interesting.

I imagine it's much easier to add in a new type to fix a problem than it is to add in a new type because "omg it r awsum", don't you? Also much easier to justify, I imagine.

Also remember that Psychic had one weakness, Bug, and that type sucked and had very few actual Bug-type moves. As long as Light is given enough weaknesses, the only risk would Light itself being underpowered.

I mentioned in an earlier post of mine, which is actually on this page, that the Bug type sucked and wasn't an adequate counter for Psychic. Also, if the Light type, or any other type for that matter, were released as underpowered, then that would defeat the whole point of releasing it, wouldn't you think? That in itself would create an imbalance. I think it's much more important to balance out what's already there, such as the Bug type, before adding in a new "awsum" type. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Cyberglass]

The fourth generation didn't really introduce anything new aside from some new abilities, new attacks, and a few new type combinations. There were no huge changes to the metagame, which discounts the statement someone asserted earlier that the metagame would need a major change every generation to stay interesting.

Actually, the fourth generation DID introduce a major change: the split between Physical and Special by move instead of by type. For example, Hyper Beam became a Special attack, and Leaf Blade, Crunch, and Fire Punch became Physical attacks. This allowed many pokemon to shine who were previously crippled by their reliance on a type that didn't match their offensive strengths, and also weakened Pokemon like Sceptile, which has a high Special Attack but had its best moves changed into Physical attacks. Weaknesses were also flipped upside down, because Pokemon that were weak only to (previously) Special or Physical types could no longer rely on the appropriate Defense stat for protection. I can't see any way this DIDN'T greatly impact the metagame.

 

[Myles]

The fourth generation didn't really introduce anything new aside from some new abilities, new attacks, and a few new type combinations. There were no huge changes to the metagame, which discounts the statement someone asserted earlier that the metagame would need a major change every generation to stay interesting.

Now, why did I feel the need to list all of the changes from each generation? Because I feel it's necessary to point out that the only time in the history of the game that a type was added, it was to correct a problem. I also felt it was important to point out that the metagame needs no major changes to stay interesting.

Gen IV added the special-physical split which affected the metagame even more than abilities. But the point is, every change they make could backfire and yet none have (Psychic started backfired, so not technically a change).

Also the fact that they haven't added any types except to fix the overpowered Psychics doesn't discount the Light type. A better argument would be that they haven't added any new types ever, but that isn't true.

I mentioned in an earlier post of mine, which is actually on this page, that the Bug type sucked and wasn't an adequate counter for Psychic. Also, if the Light type, or any other type for that matter, were released as underpowered, then that would defeat the whole point of releasing it, wouldn't you think? That in itself would create an imbalance. I think it's much more important to balance out what's already there, such as the Bug type, before adding in a new "awsum" type. But that's just my opinion.

Yes, but chances are it won't be underpowered, but even if it was, it wouldn't ruin the game, since there would only be a few Light types that could otherwise be ignore. Even if they were underpowered anyway, if there's a legenary one, it should still have some power. And they could always further balance it out in the next generation. Although I severely doubt it would be unbalance.

I think Psychic was intentionally more powrful than the others, just they didn't expect how much (not to mention the whole Ghost thing).

And I wouldn't object to Bug getting evened out as well. But I think its intetionally underpowered, since they don't seem to be wanting to give them more power. And balancing Bug wouldn't be as interesting as a new type anyway.

Edit: ninja'd.

 

[Post Office Buddy]

Actually, the fourth generation DID introduce a major change: the split between Physical and Special by move instead of by type. For example, Hyper Beam became a Special attack, and Leaf Blade, Crunch, and Fire Punch became Physical attacks. This allowed many pokemon to shine who were previously crippled by their reliance on a type that didn't match their offensive strengths, and also weakened Pokemon like Sceptile, which has a high Special Attack but had its best moves changed into Physical attacks. Weaknesses were also flipped upside down, because Pokemon that were weak only to (previously) Special or Physical types could no longer rely on the appropriate Defense stat for protection. I can't see any way this DIDN'T greatly impact the metagame.

Bah, I forgot about the physical/special split. However, I stand by my assertion that the metagame doesn't need a major change to be interesting. Any new attack/ability combinations that are released in the fifth generation will make it interesting enough.

Also the fact that they haven't added any types except to fix the overpowered Psychics doesn't discount the Light type. A better argument would be that they haven't added any new types ever, but that isn't true.

It doesn't, but as that's the only time new types have been added, I find it unlikely that a new type would be added this late in the series. Also, I somehow find a false argument weaker than that which is true, so I don't think saying they haven't added any new types ever would be a better argument.

Yes, but chances are it won't be underpowered, but even if it was, it wouldn't ruin the game, since there would only be a few Light types that could otherwise be ignore. Even if they were underpowered anyway, if there's a legenary one, it should still have some power. And they could always further balance it out in the next generation. Although I severely doubt it would be unbalance.

It would still be a pointless addition to the game. Also, it would be difficult to ignore them if some previous Pokemon were re-typed to Light/Whatever, which would most likely happen should the Light type be introduced, or any type for that matter. If light is underpowered, then the re-typing would hurt the metagame a lot.

On the subject of a Light type legendary, or any new type for that matter, if the new type has too many weaknesses and the type itself is underpowered, then the legendary will be underpowered as well, no matter its BST. Also, the point is that the balance should be maintained in the fifth generation, not the sixth. This game will have wifi capabilities, so the utmost care should be taken to make sure the metagame stays balanced. Plus, it doesn't matter if you severely doubt that a new type will create an imbalance. I think that there are going to be several problems with adding a new type. It's obvious by the way I post. Your opinion is obvious by the way that you post. Neither of us have need of blatantly stating it once per post.

I think Psychic was intentionally more powrful than the others, just they didn't expect how much (not to mention the whole Ghost thing).

So you think that Gamefreak purposely created an imbalance in the metagame from the start, yet you insist that they would never imbalance the metagame. For some reason, that doesn't make sense to me. I think that Gamefreak thought they limited Psychic types enough by giving them poor Defense and HP and decided that they didn't need too many weaknesses. Instead, it turned out that Psychics dominated with their high Special stat.

And I wouldn't object to Bug getting evened out as well. But I think its intetionally underpowered, since they don't seem to be wanting to give them more power. And balancing Bug wouldn't be as interesting as a new type anyway.

They have been gradually increasing the power of bugs through the years. However, bugs don't fare well in the metagame because many of their weaknesses are common in the higher tiers. They just need to multi-type bugs with something that can negate one of its weaknesses to balance it out a bit more, as well as add a few stronger attacks. It doesn't really matter if it's as interesting as a new type, either. It's already in the games, which is something this "new type" doesn't have the benefit of, and hopefully never will.

 

[Myles]

Bah, I forgot about the physical/special split. However, I stand by my assertion that the metagame doesn't need a major change to be interesting. Any new attack/ability combinations that are released in the fifth generation will make it interesting enough.

If there isn't a major change than the two generations' metagames would be very similar. So it would be just like playing the same metagame for twice as long as usual with only small changes in the middle. It could even use Shoddy for the most part, just a few edits for the new moves.

It doesn't, but as that's the only time new types have been added, I find it unlikely that a new type would be added this late in the series. Also, I somehow find a false argument weaker than that which is true, so I don't think saying they haven't added any new types ever would be a better argument.

The 'would' was used as a conditional, as in 'if that were true'. Basically meaning that the very existence of dark and Steel make a better case for Light than if they didn't exist at all, since the anti-side would have a better case if they didn't. :P

I don't see how the length of the series comes into it though. You don't see people saying no new features can be added to other game series because 'it's too late in the series'.

On the subject of a Light type legendary, or any new type for that matter, if the new type has too many weaknesses and the type itself is underpowered, then the legendary will be underpowered as well, no matter its BST. Also, the point is that the balance should be maintained in the fifth generation, not the sixth. This game will have wifi capabilities, so the utmost care should be taken to make sure the metagame stays balanced. Plus, it doesn't matter if you severely doubt that a new type will create an imbalance. I think that there are going to be several problems with adding a new type. It's obvious by the way I post. Your opinion is obvious by the way that you post. Neither of us have need of blatantly stating it once per post.

Yes, but based on people's replies it seemed like it was coming off as me saying that it probably will be underpowered. But really in Gen II GameFreak managed to balance out five types (Steel, dark, Fighting, Bug and Psychic) at a time, while not unbalancing other types. That would be harder than balancing just Light while not affecting the others.

So you think that Gamefreak purposely created an imbalance in the metagame from the start, yet you insist that they would never imbalance the metagame. For some reason, that doesn't make sense to me. I think that Gamefreak thought they limited Psychic types enough by giving them poor Defense and HP and decided that they didn't need too many weaknesses. Instead, it turned out that Psychics dominated with their high Special stat.

There wasn't a metagame at the start. Psychic Pokemon were just suppose to be really powerful. And they obviously didn't intend it to be as bad as it was and didn't have much foresight. But with the ridiculous stats and low amount of weaknesses (even with Ghost included). It's hard to not think they wanted them to be more powerful than other types.
[/QUOTE]

 

[An-chan]

If there isn't a major change than the two generations' metagames would be very similar. So it would be just like playing the same metagame for twice as long as usual with only small changes in the middle. It could even use Shoddy for the most part, just a few edits for the new moves.

I still think adding one type doesn't really effect the metagame that much. It doesn't alter the mechanics, it doesn't make anything more interesting. All it does is to expand on an already existing system and force people to adapt to a new kind of strategy in certain cases. The fun and interest that comes from that is shortlived. After that, it's just one more type among the abundance of available types.

See, abilities actually changed something. Physical-special split changed something. Changing the IV system was also a drastical change. Overhauling several types was major. Adding a single type is just adding a single type. It's not very interesting, and the fun coming from it will be shortlived.

I don't see how the length of the series comes into it though. You don't see people saying no new features can be added to other game series because 'it's too late in the series'.

Do you even follow other canons? Fans resist most dramatical changes of the canon or gameplay features, especially so if the series has been around for a long time already. When FF changed to semi-realtime battling, a lot of people were outraged. When it turned out the new Ace Attorney game would not have Phoenix Wright in it, people were extremely sceptical. If Nintendo wanted to add gunpowder-using weaponry to Zelda, people would resist it.

See, people are used to the way it is now, and changing it would mean learning new things, adapting to new strategies, and so forth. The canon would have to somehow explain why this type was never found before, despite the series having gone on for so long, and that explanation might not be satisfactory for all. People might have to face seeing their favourite Pokémon become useless as its type changes and it loses the awesome moveset and/or the STAB it used to get. People would have to remember the changes to the type chart.

It's troublesome. Ergo, people resist change.

Yes, but based on people's replies it seemed like it was coming off as me saying that it probably will be underpowered. But really in Gen II GameFreak managed to balance out five types (Steel, dark, Fighting, Bug and Psychic) at a time, while not unbalancing other types. That would be harder than balancing just Light while not affecting the others.

Imagine a scale. There are 17 different-sized little rocks on that scale. At first, the scale was terribly unbalanced because the rocks were put carelessly on it. After much little tweaking, adding to this rock and taking a bit away from this one and moving them around, the scale is finally almost balanced.

And then you throw a new rock on it.

It will be extremely hard to get it to stay in balance with all the 17 already existing types. You have to push the rocks around again, add to them, take away from them, just a teeny tiny bit to every rock, but it amounts to a lot when combined. Just that you can't necessarily actually see if the scale is back in balance or not, not before you release the game. And, y'know, if it turns out to be unbalanced, you have a problem.

 

[Myles]

Do you even follow other canons? Fans resist most dramatical changes of the canon or gameplay features, especially so if the series has been around for a long time already. When FF changed to semi-realtime battling, a lot of people were outraged. When it turned out the new Ace Attorney game would not have Phoenix Wright in it, people were extremely sceptical. If Nintendo wanted to add gunpowder-using weaponry to Zelda, people would resist it.

Changing to 'semi-real-time' is a genre shift, changing Zelda to have guns would also be a genre shift and as for Ace Attorney, well it's a different protagonist. Regardless, keeping the game the same for people who don't like change is a very bad idea, which is why no one does it.

Most people will accept the change in little time as they see it's not that bad, some (a much smaller percentage) will hate it because of nostalgia or 'cos they just think its cool to hate stuff and an even smaller percentage will just generally not like the change. Whereas if you keep the game the same, everyone, everyone is going to complain that it's just a mission pack sequel.

And I don't see how that rock analogy works anyway. They've shown they can carefully do it while adding two types. So it probably won't be that hard for four. Anyway, as it is now, offensive Ground is slightly overpowered and Bug and Fighting are slightly underpowered, just for a start.