Off The Menu [Workshop]

[Afterglow Ampharos]

That was how the sign-ups were always going to work ... ? Unless you can propose another model, since I dislike first-come-first-serve, all I can say is that I'm not a nepotist. I've put a shit-ton of work into this and making everything flow and swapping out ideas for others, so I want quality as much as anybody else, regardless of who's playing whom.

Picking the best suited applications is common sense, yes, but there's nuance difference between that model, and the model of actively encouraging your applicants to compete with each other before the roleplay's started (e.g. when you said:

Encourage c o m p e t i t i o n.

). To compete for the right to participate in the roleplay. That's just... not the right way to frame it in my opinion.

I'm making my character as fleshed out as I can, not because I want to beat out the other applicants, but because I want to be maximally equipped for this roleplay setting.

I understand that from a mechanics point of view (if you get over five applicants), the two models aren't different, but as a framing device, encouraging competition makes things uglier than need be. I don't want to be at loggerheads with people OOC.

There's a thread for it: (here)

Thanks. I'll see if the alias I go by on Discord and other stuff is acceptable.
It's a punny name so Disclosed should like it at least

I can see that, if it were a canon SU that would be one of the things I'd be looking to eliminate: the fact she sounds a little one-dimensional. I would've grilled her with more questions than Cadbury.

Feel free to grill her if you like, as improving her dimensions would be good for me, but I understand that's lower priority than your other GM responsibilities, given I already have an acceptable SU up.

baby come back it was a slip up D:

I'll always come back to you, Kiyo.

eh While she was an enjoyable read, and I wish heard more about Cadbury's quirks like you described Holly's, I have a feeling Cadbury is more fleshed out and has more mileage to him.

Oh, this is a good point then. Let's delve into this: Cadbury's quirks. What were you hoping to see? There's still time to add to my profile.

> Orx as in Orx of Twinleaf, a separate member from you, who has posted here
> Gawd Ordy did you even read my thread </3

Oh? I got confused about it when I saw Disclosed use the word Oddball to describe Orx:

CALLING OUT ORX

Why does everyone here think they're an "oddball", when everyone's the quirkster no one is

And yes, I did miss the message from Orx, sorry, it was a while ago.

This sounds like a lot of projected fear, so I'd stop worrying about it.

Sigh. I'm sorry it sounds that way to you.

 

[Junier]

I wasn't trying to argue in favour of this, I'm sorry if it came off that way.

did Kiyo say anything smart in response to you/s]

When I referred to the "first-come-first-serve" method as being "contrasting", I intended to implicate that it was the only other possible option, or at least the only one that I could possibly envision as someone looking to take up game-mastering again.

But I agree: when you know people, you trust that what they make is better than what a non-acquaintance makes. What's the solution to this though, in your mind? I feel, based on your replies to Kiyo and I, you're not thinking about how to solve the issue at hand. I think we first need to identify what the real issue is; as I see it, it's all dependent on what a person hopes to attain from creating an application in the end. If your short-term goal is getting in "Pokepark 3: Siege on Wish Park" and presumably having fun for however long that RP lasts, then, in my opinion, in any situation, you're fucked. You're either at the mercy of the inevitably-biased game master or relying on sheer serendipity; when there's no deadline, you have to be keen in making your reservation or getting your work-in-progress up in the hopes of intimidating other potential players as soon as that RP goes up, else the competition will take your place! The truth is, when sign-ups and especially player limits are in play, roleplaying is inherently competitive and it always will be. If you aren't just doing it with your friends who are guaranteed to give you a nepotistic boost and limit your scope to one game that you really, really want to make your character idea come to life in, the stress will ineluctably weigh you down.

This is why I personally see roleplaying as collaborative writing, similarly to how Ech describes it. Roleplaying essentially gives me an excuse to write often and dedicate myself to a project in the midst of struggling to write on my own. I want roleplaying to evolve into something that prioritizes growth above a brief feeling of accomplishment. Then, the issue isn't "getting in", it's "getting a chance" to prove what you can, and if the application you wrote is rejected, the best part about PC is that most game masters at least explain why. That "why" is incredibly important to personal development! It's why I want game masters to be thorough with every app, good, mediocre, or bad, because everyone deserves some form of constructive criticism if he or she is ever going to excel!

Of course, sometimes the criticism is unwarranted, but I feel the chance of GMs pulling problems out of their asses to cover for refusing you in-place of their friends is severely lessened if deadlines are imposed and the feeling that every sign-up should be addressed critically becomes a more prevailing attitude. It's really what I want to communicate here on Pokecommunity now: how to be a great game master, someone who maintains investment and encourages advancement over having short-minded fun. My perspective at-current is based on an elaborate hypothesis, really; I'm looking to find the primary evidence to support it.

But I feel roleplaying, without seeing it as a writing exercise, becomes highly dependent on established relationships, at least if you want the story to last for a decent length of time. In other words, you're better off with your friends/coincidentally have a friend-like chemistry with whoever you're playing with. (The latter is when elitism starts creeping in, when sites become suspicious of others who think differently, when it really shouldn't matter when the priority is playing the game.)

ALSO, KIYO YOU MUST HAVE BEEN PRETTY DESPERATE IF THAT WAS THE "SEXY ICE CREAM" YOU SETTLED ON

 

[Afterglow Ampharos]

What's the solution to this though, in your mind? I feel, based on your replies to Kiyo and I, you're not thinking about how to solve the issue at hand.

Instead of encouraging competition between applicants, encourage the most creative writing and character building, and like you said, discussions on how to work out the characters to be more clear, more detailed.

Sure, you'll still pick the best fitting characters for your game, at the end. But you don't really need to frame this as a competition, in order to do that when the deadline arrives.

Sorry if that wasn't made clear enough in my last post. I never meant to change Kiyo's selection methods, just the atmosphere he's encouraging, and when he said he wanted to encourage competition, I wanted to jump in there.

Like, for example, if this were actually a competition, do you think Ech and Disclosed would have suggested things to make James Cadbury better? No way, they'd keep that info to themselves and concentrate on their own SUs.

Ok that's too extreme an example, you meant friendly competition. But still, I don't think this needs to be thought of as a contest so much as an activity of all of us working in tandem and together on writing up good characters.

This is why I personally see roleplaying as collaborative writing, similarly to how Ech describes it.

I agree. Collaboration and competition don't mix well, though.


P.S. I hope I'm not making anyone upset. I believe that the way you frame these things in people's minds ("we're against each other," or "we're working together") is important. But this is an opinion piece, so.

 

[Junier]

Instead of encouraging competition between applicants, encourage the most creative writing and character building, and like you said, discussions on how to work out the characters to be more clear, more detailed.

Sure, you'll still pick the best fitting characters for your game, at the end. But you don't really need to frame this as a competition, in order to do that when the deadline arrives.

Sorry if that wasn't made clear enough in my last post. I never meant to change Kiyo's selection methods, just the atmosphere he's encouraging, and when he said he wanted to encourage competition, I wanted to jump in there.

Like, for example, if this were actually a competition, do you think Ech and Disclosed would have suggested things to make James Cadbury better? No way, they'd keep that info to themselves and concentrate on their own SUs.

Ok that's too extreme an example, you meant friendly competition. But still, I don't think this needs to be thought of as a contest so much as an activity of all of us working in tandem and together on writing up good characters.

I agree. Collaboration and competition don't mix well, though.


P.S. I hope I'm not making anyone upset. I believe that the way you frame these things in people's minds ("we're against each other," or "we're working together") is important. But this is an opinion piece, so.

Like I said, roleplaying will almost always be inherently competitive, whether it's friendly or otherwise. It's all about the method; I really can't think of another method of roleplaying that balances particularity and control with spontaneity and allowance for creativity as simply setting a deadline and seeing who takes the bait.

Encouraging collaboration can still be accomplished, especially if the RP retains an open attitude that in turn encourages a variety of players to vie for positions. It would help as well if players were looking at things long-term instead of short-term, as I mentioned: I'm in this to grow, not to win. That way, everyone will feel some variation of achievement, no matter if his or her character is accepted in the end.

Remember, you can be cooperative and competitive; you can give advice and strive to do your best simultaneously! I think what's most important, then, is making such an attitude more mainstream. The competitiveness should never reach an aggressive extent; I agree with you there. Tensity can easily be lightened by having the game master make the roleplay seem more comfortable for everyone. The best ways to keep a light and friendly mood likely include interacting with members evenly and just presenting out-of-character sections of the OP amicably. (Like no super passive rules sections that I see a lot on other sites; "THIS ISN'T YOUR NORMAL CHEAP-ASS RP, YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY BE CREATIVE, THIS IS FOR 'LITERATE' WRITERS")

I'M REPEATING MYSELF

LOL, but don't worry, I'm not mad. I think it's great to discuss this!

 

[Afterglow Ampharos]

Like I said, roleplaying will almost always be inherently competitive, whether it's friendly or otherwise.

Huh, really? I can't remember the last time I was in an RP where competition between players was an aspect, outside of the recruitment parts. Like, when it comes to the actual roleplay itself, a vast majority of the ones I'm involved with have no competitive element. But of course that could just be that we go for different kinds of RPs!!

Remember, you can be cooperative and competitive; you can give advice and strive to do your best simultaneously!

Striving to do my best isn't something that means I'm competing with anyone, except my Past Self.

and just presenting out-of-character sections of the OP amicably. (Like no super passive rules sections that I see a lot on other sites; "THIS ISN'T YOUR NORMAL CHEAP-ASS RP, YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY BE CREATIVE, THIS IS FOR 'LITERATE' WRITERS")

Hm, what do you mean by this example? I'm not sure I follow. The example is vague, certainly, and crudely worded, but what do you mean by "passive"?

 

[Junier]

Huh, really? I can't remember the last time I was in an RP where competition between players was an aspect, outside of the recruitment parts.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Ugh.

SPEED UP GRAB THE WALL, AMPHAROS-MAN, THIS IS SONIC TERRITORY

Striving to do my best isn't something that means I'm competing with anyone, except my Past Self.

and RIP, I thought "passive rules" spoke for itself, here what's I intended in Fakegaytier's words:

Be Realistic.
I know this is a role-play and it's not real, but it's
based on the real world. I don't want [any] Mary Sues, Gary Lues, special snowflakes etc because they're unrealistic and they could never happen in the real world. So basically, I don't want a character whose family is dead and they were raised by a pack of wolves and they learned how to be an expert assassin from an inu demon. That doesn't even make sense.

Use proper grammar.
This roleplay is for literate people only, that means that I
have to be able to read your posts and actually understand them too. It's "you're" not "ur",
it's "and" not "n" and don't use smilies or "lol" or anything like that because it's amateurish
and completely unnecessary. I'll accept if you have a few typos in your posts, but if it starts
to bother me or other people then you have to edit them. Too many people don't proof-read
their posts and it's a real pet peeve of mine, so do it if you don't want to get kicked later for
breaking this rule too many times. Do not argue with me or you will be kicked.

 

[Afterglow Ampharos]

That clears it up. Thanks.

Also, my name change went through, lookie! Afterglow, or Glow for short. Hopefully that clears up any confusion with the other Oddball around here, and such.

 

[Who's Kiyo?]

Hey, popping in to say that I didn't die and am not neglecting this thread; quite the opposite actually! I've been making strides in the materials for this game, and it's feasibly and dangerously close to being put up. I just want to quickly address some of the more direct stuff while I had the chance:

That's just not the right way to frame it

Oh, I see what you mean. Using the word "competition" wouldn't cultivate an environment of aiding one another on SUs as we've done here; I understand where you're coming from now.

The intention with my original statement was more in response to frustration with people who see that there are only say, five slots in a roleplay, and see five sign-ups already posted, and therefore opt out of putting in an SU despite having wanted to throw their hat in.

I understand that's lower priority than your other GM responsibilities

It is, sadly. I do like her, but if you're not going to seriously submit her against Cadbury, I have to focus on getting this RP off the ground.

What were you hoping to see?

You just went so much more in depth with Holly's quirks; what you have for Cadbury is already good, but I love depth. It's not about adding more, it's about elaborating and expanding on what's already there.

my name change went through

It looks great, Ordy! :D​

 

[Afterglow Ampharos]

Oh, I see what you mean. Using the word "competition" wouldn't cultivate an environment of aiding one another on SUs as we've done here; I understand where you're coming from now.

The intention with my original statement was more in response to frustration with people who see that there are only say, five slots in a roleplay, and see five sign-ups already posted, and therefore opt out of putting in an SU despite having wanted to throw their hat in.

Yeah, you got it! I'm glad we understand each other, because now I get what you were trying to say too, that situation is totally frustrating. However, we don't have five sign-ups yet, so no worries.

It is, sadly. I do like her, but if you're not going to seriously submit her against Cadbury, I have to focus on getting this RP off the ground.

Don't be sad! I'll save Holly the Ivysaur for if people like the idea of her more than Cadbury, or if we have an unfilled slot at the end of your sign-ups.

You just went so much more in depth with Holly's quirks; what you have for Cadbury is already good, but I love depth. It's not about adding more, it's about elaborating and expanding on what's already there.

Hrm. This is just me being blind to it because I was the one writing it, but I don't see where/how I made Cadbury's description less in depth about his "quirks" than I made Holly's, about hers. I bet that with a little pointing in the right direction, and/or comparisons of the two, I could develop Cadbury's further.

[Name change] looks great, Ordy! :D

You're doing this on purpose.

 

[Who's Kiyo?]

just me being blind

Hm, maybe it's just my like of Holly and her differences, but it feels like you put some more work into how Holly relates to her profession. Maybe I want to see something similar for James? How he feels about his job, the way he manages himself between masters, what are the strict house rules he puts upon himself and the staffs he get put in charge of; maybe that sort of thing? Your SU is fine as it is, but if you want more things to chew on for James, this could be a start.

Also, speaking of limited slots, how does everyone feel about potentially opening up the possibility for people to come in and play guests in the restaurant?​

 

[Ech]

Also, speaking of limited slots, how does everyone feel about potentially opening up the possibility for people to come in and play guests in the restaurant?​

Do it, you shit bag

 

[Afterglow Ampharos]

--

I thought up some more questions about Cadbury the Vanilluxxxe.

How long ago did he/they join the wait staff at Finer Things? I remember that was one of Kiyo's questions in the OP.

For that matter, should Cadbury, Caddy and Burr as one unit, be called "he" or "they"?

When my character wants to address one of them, is it good for me to call them by those names, Caddy and Burr? I ask because the Name section in your SU makes Caddy out to be in some sort of denial about the name Burr for his other half. Which has left me feeling confused.

How do you plan to differentiate their dialogue? Two different shades of colour, perhaps?

Also, speaking of limited slots, how does everyone feel about potentially opening up the possibility for people to come in and play guests in the restaurant?

Sure, that'd be fine, as long as you think you can assign someone else to the task and still have them drop the clues you want them to in a subtle enough way.
You also need to be willing to pick that character up to play yourself if the typist goes MIA.

Hm, maybe it's just my like of Holly and her differences, but it feels like you put some more work into how Holly relates to her profession. Maybe I want to see something similar for James?
How he feels about his job,
the way he manages himself between masters,
what are the strict house rules he puts upon himself and the staffs he get put in charge of; maybe that sort of thing? Your SU is fine as it is, but if you want more things to chew on for James, this could be a start.

SO, how Cadbury feels about his job is "Helping them enjoy themselves through his service is what he lives for." But then I wanted to dig into that and figure out WHY he enjoys that. What makes a kid want to be helpful growing up, and keep that mentality with him as an adult? Certainly the training he received from his tutor was a big part of it, but perhaps there was something else in his backstory... Maybe... Maybe for example, his mother has bipolar disorder, or Alzheimer's. And he as the child, would have spent a lot of time helping his mother, scheduling her days, etc. Or, perhaps there are other less dramatic ways to influence a child to grow up loving helping: I'm open to suggestion.

Cadbury adopts the words of his father: "I have dedicated my life to the pursuit of excellent service. I feel strongly that the best service can be a bridge between cultures and lifestyles, and that good service makes the difference between clients feeling comfortable or ill at ease."

He also takes to heart the words of his tutor: "Many people feel that having proper manners means being stuffy and pretentious, but I'm here to tell you that nothing could be further from the truth! You can be well-mannered, cultured, and a great home entertainer while being yourself -- in fact, there's no other way to be. For me, etiquette is not a set of classist rules of or rich, famous, or snobby people -- rather, it's a way of being, based on understanding other people and having consideration for their needs." (Note: While Cadbury adopts this mantra himself, he is not flawless, and can indeed come off as stuffy at times.)

Managing himself between masters... I think Cadbury is going to frame Finer Things as similar to a master in his mind, so he may not act "between masters" in the span of this RP. A master who has lots and lots of guests over to entertain and serve! Huh. Yeah, that should go in the SU, huh?

Now, rules of conduct for himself. Let's see... These are things passed down through generations and tradition, which is why many of them may be a little outdated. For example:
"Followers are strictly forbidden, and any servant found fraternizing with a member of the opposite sex will be dismissed without a hearing."
(Note the loophole: opposite sex. Also, "found" is a keyword here too -- as the generations have gone by, fraternizing in secret has become more common, though still taboo.)

Lesson one is "what matters most." This is all about personal presentation and attitude. You must always remember that your dress and demeanour say everything about your employers and their household (or bistro, in this case). You must stand up straight and you must always be smartly turned out. A good attitude means adopting a "no job too small" mentality. Good manners and total discretion are paramount.

 

[Junier]

I thought up some more questions about Cadbury the Vanilluxxxe.

I think you'd be better off waiting until I finish fleshing out Cadbury's background in the final iteration of my sign-up to ask any further questions.

I can say that in the cases where they would have back-and-forth exchanges, basic close reading skills would likely make physically differentiating text appear more patronizing than anything and take away from the actual content of those exchanges. I might, however, use text shadow to represent when Caddy & Burr speak concurrently for stylistic reasons.

I can rarely keep pronouns consistent in my mind so, just from an in-character perspective, make sure Cadbury is referred to as a "he" from a limited narrator's perspective, since it wouldn't be appropriate, at least in the beginning, for anyone other than Cadbury's employer to know a "Burr" even exists and, as "he" sees it anyway, "he" is one consistently-functioning individual.

 

[Who's Kiyo?]

Hey everyone, just pinging you to say that the OOC Thread is up and can be found (here)!

All further discussion should move there. Thank you to everyone who helped develop this project!

Spoiler:

Blue Moon

You saw me standing alone

Without a dream in my heart

Without a love of my own

Blue Moon

You know just what I was there for

You heard me saying a prayer for

Someone I really could care for

And then there suddenly appeared before me

The only one my arms will hold

I heard somebody whisper please adore me

And when I looked to the Moon it turned to gold

Blue Moon, Now I'm no longer alone

 

[Afterglow Ampharos]

All further discussion should move there.

Does that mean my Linoone-answers to your feedback aren't gonna be responded to? (Because I posted the answers here, not in that thread)

Edit: Oops, I wasted my 500th post on something trivial.

 

[Who's Kiyo?]

Oops, wasted my 500th post on something trivial.

They will be responded to there once I finish up a few remaining chores. In fact, since you need to repost Cadbury anyway, why don't you slap him in the OOC and I'll go over his entire profile once more?​

 

[Afterglow Ampharos]

They will be responded to there once I finish up a few remaining chores. In fact, since you need to repost Cadbury anyway, why don't you slap him in the OOC and I'll go over his entire profile once more?

I'll hold off posting Cadbury's whole profile until I get feedback on that quirky stuff, so that I can actually add the quirky stuff to his SU before I post it.

 

[Ech]

Hey
​

why did you ping me tho, i already finished my "app". rememburr? LOL

you should have pinged Orx at least three times. Man still didn't respond to this thread, even after we roasted his butthole.

also you dick, you deliberately didn't hang up my sexy variation of fem lombardi for the fanart section

I'll hold off posting Cadbury's whole profile until I get feedback on that quirky stuff, so that I can actually add the quirky stuff to his SU before I post it.

You could still post it there? I don't really see the harm of doing this, especially since it's easier for everyone else to take a sneak peak at your character even if it's still WIP, as opposed to having to swim through this cesspool.


Also, this is my last post here.

This Workshop can burn in Hell.
​