Origins of Mew ~ Ancestor or Descendant?

[GhastlyGastly]

More Pokémon theorizing! Yay! :pink_boogie:

Consider: Many of Mew's Pokédex entries attest to both its extreme rarity (such that many Pokémon experts do not even believe that it exists) and its ability to learn all moves. Some of its Pokédex entries state that its genome contains the collective genomes of all Pokémon (which is thought to be the reason for its ability to learn all moves). Some of said that Mew cannot learn all moves, merely most moves; it cannot learn very exclusive moves, such as Roar of Time, Conversion, Relic Song, etc.
However, I posit that Mew can in fact learn those moves, since its Pokédex entries do clearly state that it can learn all moves. The simple reason that exclusive, signature moves cannot be learned in-game by Mew, I believe, is quite simply that no signature could possibly be recorded in TM or HM form: the fact that there is no means by which it could learn to perform the move is not evidence that it is incapable of learning the move. (Crazy, I know, but that's the way my brain works, okay? :pink_giggle: haha)

R/B ~ "So rare that it is still said to be a mirage by many experts. Only a few people have seen it worldwide."
S ~ "Its DNA is said to contain the genetic codes of all Pokémon, so it can use all kinds of techniques."
C ~ "Because it can learn any move, some people began research to see if it is the ancestor of all Pokémon."
R/S/E ~ "Mew is said to possess the genetic composition of all Pokémon. It is capable of making itself invisible at will, so it entirely avoids notice even if it approaches people."
FR ~ "A Pokémon of South America that was thought to have been extinct. It is very intelligent and learns any move."
LG ~ "So rare that it is still said to be a mirage by many experts. Only a few people have seen it worldwide."
D/P/P ~ "Because it can use all kinds of moves, many scientists believe Mew to be the ancestor of Pokémon."
SS ~ "Its DNA is said to contain the genetic codes of all Pokémon, so it can use all kinds of techniques."
B/W/B2/W2 ~ "Because it is able to use every move, there are many scientists who believe that it is the ancestor of all Pokémon."

It is claimed that Mew may be the ancestor of all Pokémon, because its genome contains the genetic material of all known Pokémon (and presumably unknown; consider the fact that its Pokédex entries have affirmed its genetics despite the discovery of many hundreds of Pokémon since Generation II, when it was first stated to have the DNA of all Pokémon). However, an important distinction is made: they state quite plainly that its genome contains the genetic material of all Pokémon, however, they make quite clear that the notion that it is a common ancestor of Pokémon is a simply a hypothesis. But, as a partially-trained evolutionary biologist and zoologist myself, my first instinct of course is: that's absurd, that hypothesis would require evolution to operate in reverse (i.e., that the universal common ancestral species, rather than being very simple and possessing a miniscule genome, possessed a genome containing all of the genetic material which would ever exist on the planet).

Speculation: There are effectively three explanations for these observations:

• Mew is an extraterrestrial species, which evolved elsewhere in the universe and came to Earth, and then served as the common ancestor of Earth life.
• Mew is, as many believe, the common ancestor of all Pokémon: the genomes of all Pokémon contain fragments of Mew's genetic material. In this scenario, the existence of Mew on Earth is unexplained.
  
  Or, the most bizarre possibility, and the most intriguing to me...
• Mew is in fact a universal Pokémon descendant: Mew is a Pokémon from the future, and is a sort of fusion of the genomes of all Pokémon.

Given Mew is known to be capable of surviving and traveling in outer space, it's entirely possible that Mew is an extraterrestrial Pokémon; it's not totally unreasonable to think that this scenario could have been the origin of all Pokémon. However, that would require for there to be zero generation of new genetic material during billions of years of evolution: a virtual impossibility, or at best very unlikely, given the molecular makeup of deoxyribonucelotides and the processes of natural selection and breeding. The only argument that would stand up whatsoever I think is simply that Pokémon and their breeding and evolution is not quite the same as ordinary animals (a bit of a cop-out, but reasonable; after all, apparently Diglett and Wailord are capable of mating and producing viable offspring; this suggests that the Egg Groups of Pokémon are indications of extreme genetic similarity).

It is also theoretically possible that popular opinion is correct: Arceus (thought by some to be the creator of the Pokémon world) created Mew, and a proliferation of Mews essentially "evolved" into all other species of Pokémon. I for one am a Poké-atheist: that is, I do not believe that Arceus created the Pokémon world, or that it's a god, or anything more than a very rare and powerful Pokémon. The "Mew Problem" is one of the primary reasons why I cannot rationally accept Arceus as a creator-deity of Pokémon: if you believe in Arceus as creator, and Mew as common ancestor... then which came first? Arceus or Mew? This logical inconsistency is among the most compelling reasons why I do not believe that Arceus is a creator god. Arceus cannot be the creator of its own ancestor. But I digress...

Hypothesis: I have developed a theoretical solution to these problems of Mew's origins: one could call it the "Descendant Hypothesis". More specifically, I believe that perhaps Mew is not a common ancestor of Pokémon, but instead a common descendant: somehow (perhaps due to the aforementioned Egg Groups of Pokémon), Mew is a sort of hybrid or universal descendant of all Pokémon (including all extinct and yet-to-be-discovered species). A number of Pokémon are known to be capable of traversing different dimensions, traveling through space and time, etc.; Mew, being capable of using all techniques known by other Pokémon, would logically be able to do these things as well. Thus, hypothetically, Mew is not an ancient, ancestral Pokémon that all others are descended from, but instead a universal descendant, into which all Pokémon lineages eventually converge, at some time in the future. This is theoretically possible given the unusual nature of Pokémon breeding: namely, because of the Egg Groups. If such seemingly divergent species as Diglett and Wailord (both members of the Field Egg Group) are capable of mating and producing viable offspring, then it is far from impossible (in fact, rather probable) that at some time in the future, the Egg Groups would essentially merge into a single reproductive category, wherein all Pokémon would be capable of mating with any other and yielding offspring.

Speculation: Mew, being genderless and of the Undiscovered Egg Group, cannot breed with any known Pokémon. However, there is an intriguing link which can theoretically be made between Mew and Ditto. Many Pokémon theorists have noted the similarities between Mew and Ditto (coloration, weight, Transform, etc.), and that Ditto was originally to be found in the Cinnabar Mansion, where research and experimentation on Mew and Mewtwo was conducted. Thus, many (myself included) have reached the conclusion that Ditto was created accidentally, essentially as failed attempts to clone Mew. Thus, theoretically, Ditto is effectively a mass of slime composed of Mew cells (explaining its ability to use Transform, as Mew can, since it possesses the genetic material of all Pokémon). Why is this relevant, you ask? Because of Ditto's well-known association with Pokémon breeding and Egg Groups.

Consider: Ditto is capable of breeding with any Pokémon (despite being genderless and of the Undiscovered Egg Group; the same as Mew). I speculate that Mew is the result of interbreeding between a universal Egg Group, or effectively a descendant of all Pokémon. What sort of event would facilitate the merging of the Egg Groups, shatter the boundaries between different breeding categories of Pokémon, and allow for the emergence of a singular, universal hybrid Pokémon? Ditto. A Pokémon capable of interbreeding with all Egg Groups.

Speculation: Does this then mean that Mew is essentially descended from Ditto? But isn't that the exact opposite of what most Ditto-Mew connection theories suggest? Yes. However, I do believe there's room for both theories. Whereas Arceus cannot learn all moves, and thus cannot logically be a creator and a descendant simultaneously, Mew has no such logical difficulty. A Pokémon such as Mew, capable of traveling through time, is capable of both at once.

Hypothesis: Perhaps Mew and Ditto are two Pokémon linked in a "temporal loop": that is to say, a circle in time. Mew is descended from Ditto, and Ditto came about because Mew travelled backwards in time from the future. A temporal loop (bizarre and mind-boggling as it is to ponder) is logically consistent.

Conclusion: So, is that where Mew really comes from? Is Mew an alien? Or do you think my theory is plausible, that Mew might be a sort of "all-in-one" super-Pokémon, descended from Ditto (and the Pokémon from which Ditto was created, at the same time)? We'll probably never know for sure. But hey, Mew is the New Pokémon, after all... Maybe it's nothing, but at the very least, it seems to fit in perfectly with my theory, yeah?

Anyway... Thoughts anyone?

 

[Dragon_Trainer_]

Wow.................. Just wow! That theory is so well thought out.......... It leaves no part unexplained. I'm sure that many players must have thought about this. It has been mentioned, in the manga, that during the development of Mewtwo, two of the Pokemon were created........... One of them managed to escape and after that the story revolves around the escapee....... It never ever talks about the first one, the failed one.......... Around the time it started developing. Green(female protagonist) stole the data required to create Mewtwo and hence the had to create another Mewtwo(as far as I know)........... Could it be possible that Ditto was the first Mewtwo.............? If yes, then how did so many Dittos come into existence?
Maybe we will never know.............

 

[GhastlyGastly]

Wow.................. Just wow! That theory is so well thought out.......... It leaves no part unexplained. I'm sure that many players must have thought about this. It has been mentioned, in the manga, that during the development of Mewtwo, two of the Pokemon were created........... One of them managed to escape and after that the story revolves around the escapee....... It never ever talks about the first one, the failed one.......... Around the time it started developing. Green(female protagonist) stole the data required to create Mewtwo and hence the had to create another Mewtwo(as far as I know)........... Could it be possible that Ditto was the first Mewtwo.............? If yes, then how did so many Dittos come into existence?
Maybe we will never know.............

My theory as to how genderless Pokémon like Ditto and Mew multiply is parthenogensis/asexual reproduction. Ditto is basically a mass of animate biofilm slime composed of Mew cells (that's my theory anyway), thus it's entirely possible that Ditto proliferate simply by budding, or perhaps even by fission. Maybe Mew reproduce the same way, as bizarre as that is to think about. Though, more likely, since Mew appears to be largely similar to other Pokémon, it may be viviparous (egg-laying), though it would likely have to engage in parthenogensis (breeding without a mate). Or perhaps Mew are actually viviparous (live-birthing); though that would be highly unusual for a Pokémon.

Thanks by the way :pink_smile: I'm glad you like my theory.

 

[PokemonLeagueChamp]

My belief is that many of the researchers aware of Mew view Mew as the ancestor of Pokemon because Pokemon like Dialga, Palkia, and Arceus are seen so extremely rarely, nobody's even 100% sure they exist, except groups like Team Galactic which turn over every possible stone to find them and us players who just kind of follow them in and capture them.

The scientists make the claim that Mew might be the ancestor of all Pokemon. They aren't 100%, they're still studying fossils and trying to find any Mew that are still floating around. Arceus, meanwhile, rarely leaves the Hall of Origin, and there's only one(in any given parallel reality of Pokemon, which is how I view different people's copies of the games). Even the top researchers don't know much about Arceus, so there isn't much to discount it from being the origin of all things aside of conflicting Pokedex entries, which can be explained as A: entries written before Arceus was conceived in Gen IV, and B: entries written by researchers who have more of an idea on the nature of Mew than they have about Arceus.

Mew is likely one of the very old Pokemon, formed after Arceus created existence, Dialga and Palkia created reality, and the Hoenn trio shaped the planet. After all of that, Mew was the origin for MOST other Pokemon, out of which different divergent evolutions took their course.

The more likely explanation involves the creators of Pokemon making stuff that looks and sounds cool without going extremely deep and pondering things like this at any serious level.

 

[GhastlyGastly]

My belief is that many of the researchers aware of Mew view Mew as the ancestor of Pokemon because Pokemon like Dialga, Palkia, and Arceus are seen so extremely rarely, nobody's even 100% sure they exist, except groups like Team Galactic which turn over every possible stone to find them and us players who just kind of follow them in and capture them.

Well, it's states quite plainly in Mew's Pokédex entries that it contains the DNA of all Pokémon; the idea that Mew is a common ancestor is only speculation, sure, but the fact is quite clear that Mew's genome contains the genetic material of all Pokémon.

The scientists make the claim that Mew might be the ancestor of all Pokemon. They aren't 100%, they're still studying fossils and trying to find any Mew that are still floating around. Arceus, meanwhile, rarely leaves the Hall of Origin, and there's only one(in any given parallel reality of Pokemon, which is how I view different people's copies of the games). Even the top researchers don't know much about Arceus, so there isn't much to discount it from being the origin of all things aside of conflicting Pokedex entries, which can be explained as A: entries written before Arceus was conceived in Gen IV, and B: entries written by researchers who have more of an idea on the nature of Mew than they have about Arceus.

Yes, precisely: Mew might be the ancestor of all Pokémon. I disagree that there's only one Arceus, but there's not much I can say to convince anyone of that, haha. And yeah, I do think that there's reason to discount Arceus from being the origin of all things. But then, I don't really need to disprove that hypothesis in order to disbelieve it. There's no reason to believe that it's true, simple as that. Extrapolating Arceus' Pokédex entries to an idea that Arceus created existence is ridiculous, in my opinion. All of Arceus' Pokédex entries make abundantly clear that the idea of Arceus as a creator god comes from Sinnoh mythology and legends. Legends don't have to be true. Myths, generally speaking, aren't literally true. No evidence is ever presented that Arceus is a creator deity, ergo, I don't believe it.

Mew is likely one of the very old Pokemon, formed after Arceus created existence, Dialga and Palkia created reality, and the Hoenn trio shaped the planet. After all of that, Mew was the origin for MOST other Pokemon, out of which different divergent evolutions took their course.

See, there's no evidence any of what you've just said; I'm sorry. Arceus, Dialga, Palkia, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza... they all share something in common: the stories about them are explicitly stated to be myths. They may or may not be true; there's little to no reason to believe that they are, in my opinion. Granted, Dialga and Palkia have remarkable powers: but nothing which isn't seen in lesser forms in other Pokémon (Dialga is not the only Pokémon to have influence over time, and it could be argued that virtually all Psychic, or maybe even Ghost-Type Pokémon possess space-altering powers). Arceus conspicuously lacks the "thousands arms" it is said in the old myths to have created the world with; that, to me, reeks of legend. And just legend. Or, at best, mostly legend. There may be a kernel of truth, but it certainly isn't apparent. There are perfectly adequate alternative explanations for all the things which the myths claim to explain.

The only thing which is explicitly stated out of all this which is indisputable is that Mew's genome contains the DNA of all (not merely "most") Pokémon. I don't care whether Mew was a common ancestor or not (since that's stated to be only a belief of certain "experts" and "scientists"): but the fact of its genome does present a rather notable quandary. But then, I've already explained all my thoughts on the evidence and conclusions of that in my original post.

The more likely explanation involves the creators of Pokemon making stuff that looks and sounds cool without going extremely deep and pondering things like this at any serious level.

That's very likely the explanation, yes. But that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't develop our own explanations for their ambiguities and/or oversights. I'm of the opinion that the creators of Pokémon aren't the only ones who should be able to dictate what the Pokémon world is like; fan speculation and theorizing is of course my specialty, and one of the richest and most interesting things about Pokémon, to me at least. The creators of Pokémon may have strongly implied that Arceus and all that may be true, and that there are Pokémon "gods", but for me, the fact that they went out of their way to frame all that in mythology suggests that there's at least room to argue about it. They could have quite plainly stated that Arceus created everything, but they didn't: instead they chose to say that mythology says all those things about Arceus, Dialga, Palkia, etc.

That fact alone tells me that there's at least room for discussion on the matter: it's not word of god. I simply see the Pokémon world as much richer and deeper than merely what has been presented to us: and it needn't be the sole province of the creators to dictate to us what we should think about any given thing. And in some cases, such as the case of Mew, etc., the evidence, I believe, suggests an explanation other than the normal idea. As a scientist, that's simply how my brain works; I can accept that everyone else believes a certain thing about Pokémon, but I cannot necessarily accept it myself. I'll accept whatever the evidence seems to support most strongly. :pink_smile:

 

[Brendino]

Wow... that was quite a read! I've got to say, that's probably one of the most thought out first posts of a thread I've ever seen in Pokemon General.

I still like the idea that as ancestors of Arceus, the reason Mew can use the moves and transform into Arceus and all other legendary Pokemon created by it is because they share they share a common link- a strand of DNA passed down by Arceus (so yes, I believe that Arceus did in fact come first). And as the ancestor of all other Pokemon, Mew can transform and learn the moves of them, since the common link is a strand of DNA passed down by Mew. Sure, Arceus being a true deity may be a thing of myth, but there's no concrete evidence that it isn't fact.

One thing about your theory though is that you rely a lot on the Pokedex entries (ex: "However, I posit that Mew can in fact learn those moves, since its Pokédex entries do clearly state that it can learn all moves." and "Well, it states quite plainly in Mew's Pokédex entries that it contains the DNA of all Pokémon"). If there's one thing I've learned about the Pokedex, though, is that many of its entries are greatly exaggerated, and they shouldn't be taken as fact. If they were, then we'd believe that Arcanine can over 250 mph for 24 hours straight, or Exploud crying for 5 seconds is the equivalent of 1 ton of TNT being ignited.

I do like the idea of a temporal loop between Ditto and Mew though. Since we know that certain Pokemon can live in space, time travel, etc., it wouldn't be impossible- just unlikely. So while my theory is the one that you don't really believe in, I've still got to appreciate how much time and effort went into your own theory, and you do make a lot of convincing points and arguments!

 

[GhastlyGastly]

Wow... that was quite a read! I've got to say, that's probably one of the most thought out first posts of a thread I've ever seen in Pokemon General.

I still like the idea that as ancestors of Arceus, the reason Mew can use the moves and transform into Arceus and all other legendary Pokemon created by it is because they share they share a common link- a strand of DNA passed down by Arceus (so yes, I believe that Arceus did in fact come first). And as the ancestor of all other Pokemon, Mew can transform and learn the moves of them, since the common link is a strand of DNA passed down by Mew. Sure, Arceus being a true deity may be a thing of myth, but there's no concrete evidence that it isn't fact.

One thing about your theory though is that you rely a lot on the Pokedex entries (ex: "However, I posit that Mew can in fact learn those moves, since its Pokédex entries do clearly state that it can learn all moves." and "Well, it states quite plainly in Mew's Pokédex entries that it contains the DNA of all Pokémon"). If there's one thing I've learned about the Pokedex, though, is that many of its entries are greatly exaggerated, and they shouldn't be taken as fact. If they were, then we'd believe that Arcanine can over 250 mph for 24 hours straight, or Exploud crying for 5 seconds is the equivalent of 1 ton of TNT being ignited.

I do like the idea of a temporal loop between Ditto and Mew though. Since we know that certain Pokemon can live in space, time travel, etc., it wouldn't be impossible- just unlikely. So while my theory is the one that you don't really believe in, I've still got to appreciate how much time and effort went into your own theory, and you do make a lot of convincing points and arguments!

Thanks for the feedback! :pink_smile:

I don't have a lot to add, other than I disagree that Pokédex entries are necessarily exaggerated; I do, for example, think that Exploud's power is precisely as stated. Now, is that necessarily the normal amount of power used? Perhaps not. Pokédex entries like that, I figure, are essentially stating the maximum documented abilities of those Pokémon, not necessarily the average or norm. That's my two-cents on that anyway :pink_giggle:

Sure, Arceus being a true deity may be a thing of myth, but there's no concrete evidence that it isn't fact.

See, my brain just doesn't work that way. I mean, there's no concrete evidence that disproves the myth that foxes can shapeshift, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence that they can either: so it's a pretty safe bet to say that they can't. There isn't any source which supplies concrete evidence that Arceus created Mew (whether from thin air, or using its own genome as a template); I should think that if Arceus had really used its own DNA in Mew, then there might be some source indicating that Arceus also has the DNA of all Pokémon, as Mew does; instead we find that Mew seems entirely unique in that characteristic (except perhaps for Ditto, which is implied to have the same, or at least something similar to that). I simply prefer not to take myths at face value: basically everyone who's a Pokémon fan and knows about Arceus seems to just latch onto the whole "Arceus-is-a-god" idea, spoon-fed, like it's a fact. But I think the very fact that the creators of Pokémon went out of their way to very specifically frame all that in the context of mythology shows that, at the very least, they've left room for discussion on the matter. The fact that they explicitly say that "mythology says [insert claims here] about Arceus", rather than "Arceus is able to [insert claims here]", at least to me, clearly indicates that the intent isn't for people to believe all that stuff as word of god. And so I don't.
Well, that's one among numerous reasons why I don't. I just don't see any evidence that Arceus is a creator deity, or any sort of deity (whether he was intended to be by Game Freak or not). The very fact that they've left it open for me to doubt Arceus' divinity, to me, indicates that there's supposed to be at least some doubt. Hahahaha, and yet, for some reason I seem to be the only person on Earth who's ever questioned any of this stuff :pink_laugh: haha

 

[GhastlyGastly]

Update: A somewhat revised form of this hypothesis can be found at my blog: thepokemonographer.blogspot.com/ :pink_smile:

 

[Alfabusa]

I really like this! I've always disliked the idea that Arceus is the 'god' of the pokémon world, and I've always personally considered Mew to be the ancestor of all the pokémans. So, seeing a post that heavily supports and makes sense of all this is very much appreciated!
For reals though, if there'd be a pokémon god that created everything, why would it ever be catchable by a simple human invention?

 

[Tek]

I have to say that I really enjoy the idea of Mew being it's own grandpa, so to speak. Your command of logic is impressive, and it's a very timey-wimey theory to boot.

I think an important element of this theory is considering what exactly is meant when the pokedex states that mew is said to possess the DNA sequences of all other pokemon. Are the researchers saying that Mew is the most recent common ancestor? Perhaps not, because this is better stated as "All pokemon have DNA in common with Mew." Or "Mew's DNA sequences are found in all other species of pokemon."

Does the pokedex entry indicate, as is generally accepted, that the sequences of other species are all contained within Mew's code? This would require Mew to have more sequences in its genetic code, in fact the code would be six hundred times longer than those of other pokemon. Of course, given the weirdness of pokemon biology, perhaps that notion is not so far-fetched.

Or maybe the researchers don't really understand what's going on with Mew at the cellular level, and the official pokedex entry is something of a 'best guess'. This would be consistent with the words "it is said" that always precede any assertions about Mew's DNA.

I would like to mention that myths and metaphysics are assertions without evidence. For that reason, I agree that it is important to question and thoroughly examine any mythological claims to divinity (or thereby, authority), whether one is discussing the history or humanity or pokemon.

 

[acatfrommars]

I believe that Arcues is symbolized as a "god" pokemon. In the beginning Arceus created Mew, and Mew had control over a large region of Pokemon for a long time. He was in charge of many of the psychic pokemon, and many that we don't even know about. Eventually man tried to enslave mew. Then mew went into hiding away from both human and metwo. Mew only trusts trainers who do not have evil in their hearts and are as carefree as it is.

 

[GhastlyGastly]

I believe that Arcues is symbolized as a "god" pokemon. In the beginning Arceus created Mew, and Mew had control over a large region of Pokemon for a long time. He was in charge of many of the psychic pokemon, and many that we don't even know about. Eventually man tried to enslave mew. Then mew went into hiding away from both human and metwo. Mew only trusts trainers who do not have evil in their hearts and are as carefree as it is.

Where's the evidence for that?

 

[Taiji Dragon]

Interesting hypothesis. It is innovative however there is one thing, actually, two things that I question about your hypothesis.

1) How is it that the egg groups will merge to end in Mew? if there are no known cases of hybridization between species of pokemon. If two pokemon of different species that are in the same egg group procreate the offspring will always result in the species of the mother while inheriting the moves from the father that the offspring's species are able to learn according to what it is biologically possible for that species to learn. I'm very interested to know how you will answer this question.

Note: Ditto is only able to procreate the other species not hybridize.

2) For Ditto and Mew to exist as you explained one of them must have existed without the others help. Ditto cannot give birth to Mew for Mew to time travel and give birth to Ditto. Because if you look at it Mew didn't exist in the first place according to your hypothesis it is the common descendant of all species. They must have come into existence on their own. Meaning in a way Ditto must have come to existence on its own to give birth to Mew. Then probably Mew being able to time travel met Ditto which already was. The way you mentioned it is paradoxical and doesn't make sense. It doesn't seem like a plausable hypothesis to me nor likely that it happened. However if there is something to clarify do tell.

Also another thing how did Mew acquired the powers of pokemon like Celebi and Dialga? If those pokemon cannot breed. There for how did it time traveled? And how was it possible for Ditto to pass on all of those traits to Mew. Last time I checked Ditto was only able to make an offspring of the species it procreates with. It does not retain the genes of that species in it's body. There for it cannot take from here an here to make an hybrid on it's own.

 

[Brendino]

Hey Tao Dragon, I know that GhastlyGastly had this thread linked in her signature, but please make sure to look at the dates when posting in a thread, since this one is past the 30 day revival limit. If you want, you can make a new thread discussing this topic though, or you can continue the conversation in the active Mew/Arceus theory thread, seeing as they're similar topics. Since this is an old thread though, I'm going to have to lock this.

CLOSED.