Pokemon Tier Discussion/Resource

[Anti]

Wobbuffet is going to be able to beat certain pokemon, and that's a given. So can other trappers like Magnezone and Dugtrio. If a pokemon that can't beat Wobbuffet is in against it, it's obviously going to lose. Using that as part of an argument for it being uber is silly and I'll tell you why. Let's say the subject came up of Dugtrio being moved to the uber tier (I KNOW it isn't uber, it's just an example). Saying, "Dugtrio can beat sweepers like Raikou and Heatran very easily, and they are quite potent, so Dugtrio must be uber!" no. Trappers are always going to be able to beat certain pokemon. You have to focus on what they can't beat (which is what would ultimately prove Dugtrio BL/OU if that argument ever did come up).

In the right hands, most trappers are going to get at least one kill...this includes Dugtrio and Magnezone, and even Trapinch if it were on a TR room. After that (like Dugtrio and Magnezone), Wobbuffet is very easy to beat.

Its switching patterns are easy to predict because they have to be (otherwise Wobby is going to get smashed). If they try to predict your prediction, Wobbuffet either isn't going to come in (making it a non-factor), or it's going to take a huge beating switching in and will probably die. This means that predicting the prediction will put the Wobbuffet user at a disadvantage, so a good Wobbuffet user isn't going to switch it in for the sole purpose of predicting your prediction.

As for the prediction itself, you just have to switch something in that doesn't fear Wobbuffet. I've given that list a ton of times, so look back a page for it. I did, however, exclude Shed shell users from the picture, who are moderately used thanks to Skarmory and Forretress, and even pokemon like Heatran and Empoleon to an extent. From there, you can switch or have fun setting up on it (especially Spikes if your shed Shell pokemon is Forry or Skarm). It can Encore you, but you can just switch out. Simple. The rest I explained earlier.

As for the claim that "If your *random choice sweeper* gets Wobbuffet in its face, you're doomed," it's not really viable and I'll tell you why. If you haven't seen Wobbuffet yet, it could do that to ANY of your pokemon (just like any other trapper, only on a more limited scale). Because of this, you really can't do anything about it and you're going to lose a pokemon, just like if your Raikou gets a Jolly Dugtrio in its face as a little surprise. If you HAVE seen Wobbuffet, you would be stupid to try to sweep with something that Wobbuffet can come in and pick off.

In other words, smart battling counters Wobbuffet. While you can't say that about almost all pokemon, especially sweepers, Wobbuffet doesn't pose a direct damage threat to your pokemon right away, so predeiction isn't going to cost you damage.

 

[BeachBoy]

A late reply, but I'm here. Time to actually turn this into a discussion and debate instead of us all going "AHAHAHA UBER" However, you all have an argument, I'm still going to give my opinion regardless.

I'd like to hear what Beachy and Aquillae have to say. I think we're jumping the gun WAY too quickly on Garchomp. I'm not going to wave support in either direction just yet, but I guarentee Garchomp isn't as uber as you think...even if it ends up being proven uber, I think exaggerations are going on everywhere.

I would agree.

Actually, most of the discussion goes on at the Shoddy server, where we've been going through rigorous testing.

I must wonder what rigorous is doing here. One of your first test battles were along the lines of...

MW lets your garchomp set up...
You ohko his forretress with fire fang...

And all of you say like "Yup, it's uber." Also MW says "I hate that thing."

I hope that's not counted as a discussion in your testing, also then you all continued to bash me for saying OU, and saying I just wanted OU to use it. No... I'm fighting for what I believe in. So an offensive minded person's opinion is bias all of sudden for the question of a threat comes up? Wow, now that is a tough tough opinion. >_>

And discussions? Too bad Aquillae, myself and others weren't there. Would have turned an opinion against the threat into an actual discussion. However, I did hear recently in a discussion Anti owned the wobby debate. Havn't been on, so I can't honestly say how that Garchomp discussion went.

When Anti supported the ban, he said how it's impossible to give an argument to the garchomp ban. Yeah, it is hard to go against an opinion the majority of the community is so solidly for.

Now basically silver, you must now contest everything stated there. Please read particularly well the damage calculations and my post(s). Then see if you want to continue...

Someone trys to fight for what they believe in and you shut them down? May I remind all of us, always respect a person's opinion, no matter how bad it could possibly be, always respect it. Doesn't mean you can't counter an argument though. Come on now, as competitive battlers we should know that. Not to mention how long they've been here as well shouldn't factor into a debate (Saying this because of Aquillae's apparent situation)

I've been reading D_A's counter to my first argument for some time. A lot... And It's just me that I sway my opinion on something often. I'm pretty for Garchomp OU. (75/25)

I also disagree with you on the fact that Lucario and Mence have no counter, Blissey walls Specs mence, Cresselia walls mix as does sp.defensive zapdos, Hippowdon and Donpahn can easily Come in on DD, as can swampert, Slowbro, Suicune, hell my 252 hp / 252 def @impish Poliwrath walls physical 3hko with DD DClaw ftw lol !. Lucario is lol'd at by Gliscor and Weezing (Physical), Tentacruel walls special, as does 40 hp /216 sp.def calm blissey, spiritomb etc. see those were all off the top of my head. As for gengar, lol Blissey lol, Life Orb gengar w/Focus Punch n Explosion is laughed by dual type steels such as Metacross, Jirachi, bronzong. Thing is beachboy, all stuff in OU has a counter, ive jsut named those out of the air, chompy i cant do the same for.

All stuff in OU have a counter? So what you just said, was all stuff in OU has a counter? What happens when Blissey trys to counter specsmence to get OHKO'd by Choice band Salamence? o_O Hmmm?! What happens when Gliscor comes in to stop Lucario to meet Specs hidden power [ice]? Does Tentacruel wall physical completely too? Does Tentacruel wall every set of lucario?

Okay so "NO counter" for Garchomp?

I find that very odd. I was effectively countering Garchomp with Scarfdos all night long against Aquillae. Also another battle, Suicune comes in on a fire blast, woops now it's actively countered. Counter, right? D/P is all about situations D_A.

So counter? Is it a pocket monster that walls every set now? o.0 Apparently not, by some of the top tier pocket monsters not having a counter that can wall all of their sets. That's just obvious.

SD chomp is still countered by standard bulky waters, especially Suicune and Milotic. Also, I remember some of you laughing at people, who say Cresselia. Okay I'll say it, Cresselia. ;D

Garchomp can be countered, you have to play it correctly. If you don't you may lose. Heck, people isn't that how this game works? Want to take every top threat out and make the metagame a stall war, I don't think so. You start taking out the tough points then your making the game not a game.

Choice band versions such as Scarf and Band get hampered by prediction, as does every other choice item Pocket monster.

Brightpowder Garchomp - first off, it's banned to use hax items, not on shoddy, but I believe they are in the process of a hax item clause, so I heard. Anyway, everyone stop complaining about it. It's very difficult to handle this set. But it's a banned item use. So if you lose it to it, simply move on. Don't get so heated because you actually lose a match, even if this version is very cheap.

ScarfChomp - Is the most common, and stuffed by prediction.

Also that once you see chomp you dont think game over yes, but bear in mind you may have to sacrifice a pokemon to actually find out what set its running.

You don't have to sacrifice, you have to predict correctly. (Which in competitive play, is a big portion of a person's level) Also, in competitive play... I believe there is a term called synergy? Which, if you lose a pocket monster your team can still be effective if you have good synergy which is a key part in building a team. You may have to sacrifice a pocket monster to find out a set with many overused pocket monsters. It depends how you play it.

The Swords Dance Outrage Garchomp 2hko's max hp / max def skarmory if it comes in on SR. So i really dont think its going to spike everything nor do i think Empoleon will come in.

However, if you switch in while it sets up you can't you effectively roar it away? You all seem to be grabbing this Swords dance out of thin air. They have to use a turn to set up if it carries that set. So, depending how you play, you determine the outcome in the game. That's how the game is played.

I really disagree at this no counter argument. You all can list all you want what CBchomp takes out, not to mention it's not as common as SDchomp or ScarfChomp. We mention about sand veil, we must also mention if it stays in, it's locked on outrage. Outrage can lead to confusion, and can take a tole. I lost a battle off of confusion with Blueberry once, fun game too by the way, but I won't whine about it, I move on. All choice band pocket monsters can be outpredicted and outplayed. It's funny how I did ten battles with CBChomp and didn't win them all if I should go completely with what you all are saying. It's situations!

I was counting Aquillae all night in a battle once with Scarfdos, I wonder how I did it if Garchomp has no counters at all, as some of you say. So a smart player swords on the switch? or does it attack? It all depends on the situations. Stats are not enough to prove an entire perspective anymore with D/P.

I'm not saying it's easy to counter Garchomp, however it is possible!

To be honest, I think other site's criticism sounds like it's getting to you. The fact that Garchomp can 2HKO a Lugia after a SD shows something. I know it may not prove that it's broken in OU, but the fact that it can take out the best wall in Ubers is something to be looked at.

Other site's criticism that has a tier system that exceptionally out ranks ours? So your asking how does that get to someone? o.0 And besides a person's opinion is their own.

It's absolutely nothing to be looked at. A pocket monsters ability to perform in uber has no effect on it's tier status with OU. We are looking at OU here, not uber. Let's stress that fact, and not ubers.

i asked the same thing, but apparently it is broken, thats the uber tier for this site, as i still check serebii and other sites disagree, but ill agree with this one. it does cause a lot of problems for people after SD

Just because a pocket monster is difficult to take down, doesn't give people a valid reason to whine about it being OU. (Not directing this at anyone by the way) Just quoting Peanu to make a point.

Garchomp is uber due to it's uber ability

Also, in D_A's counter argument of mine he said how he lost a match due to that 4/5 luck.

You lost due to 20%? Oh well, too bad, tough luck. If you don't have the chance to hit 4/5 that's the game. Increasing this chance with Brightpowder is simply and very wrong though.

4/5 sounds so bad to you all. 4/5? That's a B in places. :O (It is in Florida anyway)
4/5 is also an excellent win percentage. So stop making 4/5 such a bad stat. When in fact, 80% is quite good. You guys can whine all you want about missing, I could whine about that too. But oh well, you may have lost the game to a miss, time to move on.

Also, on the Wobb note, I too support it OU. But I'm here for Garchomp, not Wobby. :x So I won't jump in that.

I can't stop by fully in this Garchomp debate for more. Seeing as I have things to do now. Feel free to counter me, but hope you read every sentence before you do...

I leave a calculation for you seeing as you can't dive into situations...

Choice band Garchomp using earthquake on Zapdos (0% - 0%)

Oh yeah, and that's a perfect situation of countered. :)

 

[Ooka]

Um, that post was directed towards the testing of Lati@s, not Garchomp...


I'm receiving a royal rear kicking here...

 

[Anti]

Um, I think testing (if we do it, and we really shouldn't) should be supervised by a moderator and drawn out very well beforehand. I really think "testing" is a bad idea though.

But seriously, I think we should end Wobbuffet discussion now. People have had pages to object and I think now we should just drop it and move on to Garchomp, who is more game-breaking as it is anyways (no matter what people say about Wobbuffet).

I think the Lati@s is mostly in agreement, even though I think each one should be separately "tested." (As you can see, I think testing is a load of crap.) I'll get into Garchomp later, as Beachy about covered it.

 

[Big Lennys]

It can't switch in to Outrage, it needs to be Choiced Banded in order to even take out Garchomp. Not only is that overcentralization, it's unlikey.

Maybe you should try reading the REST of the posts against Garchomp, before you try countering it, in order to see if it has been spoken about.

Actually, donphan with ice shard does a lot of damage 2 any dragon types.

 

[sims796]

Actually, donphan with ice shard does a lot of damage 2 any dragon types.

How much damage? We all know it's super effective. Who cares. It cannot safely switch in, and Ice Shard WILL NOT OHKO, meaning the second Ourage will KO Donphan. ONLY a CB Donphan can KO it.

 

[Big Lennys]

How much damage? We all know it's super effective. Who cares. It cannot safely switch in, and Ice Shard WILL NOT OHKO, meaning the second Ourage will KO Donphan. ONLY a CB Donphan can KO it.

It takes about halve the amount of hp they have. Also they can probably last though 2 outrages.

 

[sims796]

What? Where are you getting this from? Get some real proof. I am not guessing. Donphan WILL NOT survive two Outrages, especially from the SD region. Ice Shard WILL NOT be an OHKO unless you CB Donphan.

A Life Orb, SD, NEUTRAL NATURE Garchomp's Outrage will do
Damage: 92.97% - 109.38%
To a max Def/HP Donphan.

A Max ATK Donphan's Ice Shard will do
Damage: 49.86% - 58.82%
To a Garchomp with no EVs in either HP or Def.

Remember, Ice Shard only has 40 Base Power, without STAB. Donphan cannot switch in.

 

[Anti]

sims is right...even a CB Donphan only manages 90% damage (though with LO recoil Garchomp will lose...but remember 90% is max damage).

Still, what can survive Garchomp can Ice Beam it to its grave. Cresselia is the best, and the sturdiest bulky waters do well (Suicune especially). They only have to EV themselves so Ice Beam does 90% damage, as LO recoil will kill Garchomp.

Remember, LO SD Outrage is extremely powerful, but you are extremely easily revenge killed. While you might cry victory for Garchomp, your physical sweeper has just been taken out of the game.

Also, one must not forget that Skarmory is actually a pretty safe switch into Garchomp. Even though its fire moves defeat Skarmory in two hits, you can find out its set and Roar it away or switch to an appropriate counter.

Other steels work the same way (the ones that aren't weak to EQ). they can come in and see what's up with Garchomp and act accordingly. Many pokemon can scout for a Garchomp set, and from there you can act accordingly to beat it.

I will say Garchomp is one of the most difficult pokemon to counter, but there are others that absolutely smash other pokemon. CB fighters, especially Gallade and Machamp, can absolutely smash about any pokemon in their ways. SpecsLuke poses a similar threat.

I will give you luck, as Sand Veil can be annoying. That being said, 80% is a good chance of hitting and not all Garchomps are run on a SS team or set up when SS is in play.

 

[sims796]

sims is right...even a CB Donphan only manages 90% damage (though with LO recoil Garchomp will lose...but remember 90% is max damage).

Still, what can survive Garchomp can Ice Beam it to its grave. Cresselia is the best, and the sturdiest bulky waters do well (Suicune especially). They only have to EV themselves so Ice Beam does 90% damage, as LO recoil will kill Garchomp.

Remember, LO SD Outrage is extremely powerful, but you are extremely easily revenge killed. While you might cry victory for Garchomp, your physical sweeper has just been taken out of the game.

Also, one must not forget that Skarmory is actually a pretty safe switch into Garchomp. Even though its fire moves defeat Skarmory in two hits, you can find out its set and Roar it away or switch to an appropriate counter.

Other steels work the same way (the ones that aren't weak to EQ). they can come in and see what's up with Garchomp and act accordingly. Many pokemon can scout for a Garchomp set, and from there you can act accordingly to beat it.

I will say Garchomp is one of the most difficult pokemon to counter, but there are others that absolutely smash other pokemon. CB fighters, especially Gallade and Machamp, can absolutely smash about any pokemon in their ways. SpecsLuke poses a similar threat.

I will give you luck, as Sand Veil can be annoying. That being said, 80% is a good chance of hitting and not all Garchomps are run on a SS team or set up when SS is in play.

I must say this, (since I'm supposed to be doing homework), the metagame is purty unbalanced, isn't it? Seems we take two steps foward, & take five steps back.

EDIT:Didn't we discuss most of these points already?

 

[Dark Azelf]

All stuff in OU have a counter? So what you just said, was all stuff in OU has a counter? What happens when Blissey trys to counter specsmence to get OHKO'd by Choice band Salamence? o_O Hmmm?! What happens when Gliscor comes in to stop Lucario to meet Specs hidden power [ice]? Does Tentacruel wall physical completely too? Does Tentacruel wall every set of lucario?

CB Mence does not ohko Blissey, and you can then go to a phys wall the proceeding turn, and then its out your hair for the rest of the match. CB Mence is laughed at by quite a few walls tbh and can be countered, Chomp however cant.

ALL sets for those specific pokemon have counters (For example, Tenta shuts down special Lucario, as does Heracross and spiritomb and Physical Luacario is lol'd at by Gliscor and weezing ) and i was countering pokemon YOU initially brought up that apparently have no counter.

No pokemon can wall all of one pokes sets, thats silly, this is why you have 5 other slots for your team.


Okay so "NO counter" for Garchomp?

I find that very odd. I was effectively countering Garchomp with Scarfdos all night long against Aquillae. Also another battle, Suicune comes in on a fire blast, woops now it's actively countered. Counter, right? D/P is all about situations D_A.


Not really, if Aquillae would of used Stone Edge, Dragon Claw or Outrage coming from a CB Chomp, you would have been one Gyara down, therefore is not a counter.

Neither is suicune, Ice Beam from standard 252 hp / 252 def Bold suicune DOES NOT ohko Garchomp, and in the meantime, when you switch it in on the turn it SD'S, you'll be one cune down. (2hko)


So counter? Is it a pocket monster that walls every set now? o.0 Apparently not, by some of the top tier pocket monsters not having a counter that can wall all of their sets. That's just obvious.


No, but its still not a good switch in on chomp on any other move apart from EQ and a fire move.


Its not about WALLING ALL their sets, its what can wall most of their sets, certain pokemon can do that.



SD chomp is still countered by standard bulky waters, especially Suicune and Milotic. Also, I remember some of you laughing at people, who say Cresselia. Okay I'll say it, Cresselia. ;D


Suicune is 2hko'd and Milotic is ohko'd even by a SD Life Orb'd EQ i believe. Suicune also will never ohko a full health chomp without significant evs invested in sp.att. Cressy, yes, but gets owned by SD Outrage.

Garchomp can be countered, you have to play it correctly. If you don't you may lose. Heck, people isn't that how this game works? Want to take every top threat out and make the metagame a stall war, I don't think so. You start taking out the tough points then your making the game not a game.

No, just the broke pokemon that actually have no 100% surefire counter.


Oh pish posh, its not going to become stall, we still have several pokes capable of running through teams.


Choice band versions such as Scarf and Band get hampered by prediction, as does every other choice item Pocket monster.


Tell me one pokemon that can safely switch into CB Garchomp and not die, dont even say a floaty steel, they die to its fire moves.

Even if you can predict, on that logic, wouldnt Cresselia be a heracross counter ?

That doesnt work, a counter is something that can switch in SAFELY (on ALL its moves) and cause a switch to said pokemon.


Scarf Chomp is kinda easy to counter, its not that set im bothered about.

Brightpowder Garchomp - first off, it's banned to use hax items, not on shoddy, but I believe they are in the process of a hax item clause, so I heard. Anyway, everyone stop complaining about it. It's very difficult to handle this set. But it's a banned item use. So if you lose it to it, simply move on. Don't get so heated because you actually lose a match, even if this version is very cheap.

Thats like discounting CB Gyarados, saying it doesnt exist, it does unfortunately even though its stupid and cheap and needs to be accounted for as a viable set.

If Hax items are banned, fine, im ok with this.

ScarfChomp - Is the most common, and stuffed by prediction.

I agree, scarf chomp is not threatening.


You don't have to sacrifice, you have to predict correctly. (Which in competitive play, is a big portion of a person's level) Also, in competitive play... I believe there is a term called synergy? Which, if you lose a pocket monster your team can still be effective if you have good synergy which is a key part in building a team. You may have to sacrifice a pocket monster to find out a set with many overused pocket monsters. It depends how you play it.

Well, how about switching in my physical wall into is only to get Outraged or Draco meteor'd or whatever ?

The first move, hell im not even making a sacrifice or Predicting , im just trying to wall it, and i get 2hko'd by CB Outrage or wahtever. As ive said before its my physical wall, even if i run 2 or 3 physical walls, im still not safe, and each time that comes in its going to be killing them in 2 shots. And remeber, Garchomps movepool allows it to beat ALL its counter.


However, if you switch in while it sets up you can't you effectively roar it away? You all seem to be grabbing this Swords dance out of thin air. They have to use a turn to set up if it carries that set. So, depending how you play, you determine the outcome in the game. That's how the game is played.


What can Roar it, Skarmory (as that was mentioned), i dont think so, if you switch Skarm in on the turn it sets up, your going to have to face either Fire Fang or Fire Blast. The latter, i feel is why Skarmory is an awful switch into Chomp.


I really disagree at this no counter argument. You all can list all you want what CBchomp takes out, not to mention it's not as common as SDchomp or ScarfChomp. We mention about sand veil, we must also mention if it stays in, it's locked on outrage. Outrage can lead to confusion, and can take a tole. I lost a battle off of confusion with Blueberry once, fun game too by the way, but I won't whine about it, I move on. All choice band pocket monsters can be outpredicted and outplayed. It's funny how I did ten battles with CBChomp and didn't win them all if I should go completely with what you all are saying. It's situations!


So, you switch out of confusion ? Its not that hard.
.

Matches dont prove anything, ive said it before, and ill say it again. Ive won 81 matches, whats to say that all the battlers i havent beaten aren't complete noobs ?


Its exactly the same here it depends on how you used it, not saying you did, but for all we know you could of switched it on starmie's or something.

I was counting Aquillae all night in a battle once with Scarfdos, I wonder how I did it if Garchomp has no counters at all, as some of you say. So a smart player swords on the switch? or does it attack? It all depends on the situations. Stats are not enough to prove an entire perspective anymore with D/P.

ScarfDos, as ive said before is not a good counter, why wasnt Aquillae using Stone Edge or Outrage or even dragon claw when he predicted a switch ?

If you were countering it that easily, me thinks that chomp was scarfed. If it was banded, you would of been a Gyara down.

I'm not saying it's easy to counter Garchomp, however it is possible!

Nearly impossible however.

Other site's criticism that has a tier system that exceptionally out ranks ours? So your asking how does that get to someone? o.0 And besides a person's opinion is their own.


Also, in D_A's counter argument of mine he said how he lost a match due to that 4/5 luck.


You lost due to 20%? Oh well, too bad, tough luck. If you don't have the chance to hit 4/5 that's the game. Increasing this chance with Brightpowder is simply and very wrong though.



Yes, because ive said ive lost matches to moves with better accuracy than the evasion granted by Sandveil. To prove how significant it is =/.

Again, Brightpowder, even though it is wrong, it is still a set.




4/5 sounds so bad to you all. 4/5? That's a B in places. :O (It is in Florida anyway)

4/5 is also an excellent win percentage. So stop making 4/5 such a bad stat.
When in fact, 80% is quite good. You guys can whine all you want about missing, I could whine about that too. But oh well, you may have lost the game to a miss, time to move on.


Its actually 78% accuracy, nearly as bad as Wide Lense Hypnosis, still is shaky.

No, you dont get it, say you have moves that are a counter to chomp right ?

Well, once this immediate solution/move to chomp misses, then what ?

You are then looking at a +2 Garchomp behind a sub, with a 78% chance that your moves will actually hit =/.

And after 2 swords dances, things like resistances, stop mattering.



I leave a calculation for you seeing as you can't dive into situations...

Choice band Garchomp using earthquake on Zapdos (0% - 0%)

Oh yeah, and that's a perfect situation of countered. :)

That IS NOT A COUNTER

A counter must be able to both switch into the pokémon it's supposed to counter, with little to no risk to itself, and also pose an immediate threat to said pokémon.

=)


CB Stone Edge, Outrage anyone ? AS i said previously on that logic, wouldnt Cresselia be a heracross counter ?

My point its, whilst yes you can outpredict it, there is still no 100% counter.





There are 3 things that make a poke uber


Over centralization :

Luck :


No counters :



All three of those apply to chomp. The second two more than ever.

 

[The REAL Shadow Chaos]

Hhhm.... I wonder why this is the only forum where Garchomp is uber, if it is so obvious. All others sites make Garchomp OU.... :-/

Garchomp is not even in the Limbo tier in Smogon, just in OU. :-/

 

[Dark Azelf]

Hhhm.... I wonder why this is the only forum where Garchomp is uber, if it is so obvious. All others sites make Garchomp OU.... :-/

Garchomp is not even in the Limbo tier in Smogon, just in OU. :-/

Smogon are actually considering it for uber when the metagame is stable again, and it is getting tested. Atm the metagame is changing quite a bit, new sets different strats, etc. SO when all that calms down, yeah....

 

[Faceless*]

Hhhm.... I wonder why this is the only forum where Garchomp is uber, if it is so obvious. All others sites make Garchomp OU.... :-/

Garchomp is not even in the Limbo tier in Smogon, just in OU. :-/

Oh, so you're one of those people that look up to only Smogon? You're lucky I'm in a good mood today boy

Ok, so considering even Weavile's Ice Shard will NOT KO Garchomp on one shot, you need to look upon that now

What's really putting Garchomp up into uber is that the fact.. nothing can wall it. I put it simple and easy, so that all

Spoiler:

morons

/people can understand.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Oh, so you're one of those people that look up to only Smogon? You're lucky I'm in a good mood today boy

Ok, so considering even Weavile's Ice Shard will NOT KO Garchomp on one shot, you need to look upon that now

What's really putting Garchomp up into uber is that the fact.. nothing can wall it. I put it simple and easy, so that all

Spoiler:

morons

/people can understand.

Well, it can ohko, only if weavile has a Choice band..

EDIT : Even then stupid Yache berry =[

 

[daveyboy]

Oh, so you're one of those people that look up to only Smogon? You're lucky I'm in a good mood today boy

Ok, so considering even Weavile's Ice Shard will NOT KO Garchomp on one shot, you need to look upon that now

What's really putting Garchomp up into uber is that the fact.. nothing can wall it. I put it simple and easy, so that all

Spoiler:

morons

/people can understand.

Oh and i suppose wobbufet can be walled, by what? taunt. pff countering garchomp is difficult but if you know what set it runs then it becomes far less complicated. Any team with a decent pseudo hazer such as suicune/ physical wall can do a good job at stopping the swords dancing set. Considering nothing can also safely switch in on wobbufet meaning it has no direct counters, i deem it too should be uber. More so than garchomp.

 

[Anti]

I'm sorry Dark_Azelf but we both know that Garchomp doesn't over centralize the metagame. We all can agree that luck is on its side, but over centralize it does not and it never will.

Also, if it yas Yache Berry, that means it doesn't have Life Orb to boost that ever-famous Outrage attack it has.

EDIT: Skarmory is a great initial switch. You can stop CB and Scarf Outrages right off the bat and you'll know if it's SDchomp or not. You can switch to a bulky water than can lkaugh off firer Blast or fire Fang and Ice Beam it. While skarmory doesn't counter Garchomp, it's a great initial switch since none of Garchomp's attacks 1HKO and almost all don't 2HKO.

Garchomp isn't as impossible to counter as you think either, considering SDchomp is walled by sturdy bulky waters and Cresselia. That isn't going to change. Things like Skarmory and Bronzong can also absorb any hit and switch if needed (basically if Fire Fang or blast is used or is going to be used). IMO the biggest thing against Garchomp is Sand Veil. Otherwise, I think it would be hands-down OU. when you miss, you lose. Otherwise, beating Garchomp isn't so hard.

Just thought I'd point that out.

 

[Aquilae]

I was using a ChainChomp against BeachBoy that night, it didn't have Stone Edge, Outrage or Dragon Claw.

Outrage locks Garchomp in, which means it is susceptible to revenge kills. And I don't think you are considering the fact that Garchomp requires one turn to setup Swords Dance, and a SDChomp would rarely Outrage or Earthquake prematurely.

Yache is the preferable item on Garchomp, LO is just asking stuff to come in an use *insert name of Ice Attack here* on it.

"Having no counters" is not a viable argument for a pokemon being moved up to Ubers. Overcentralisation is the viable argument for an Uber pokemon. So far Garchomp has not seen any statistics of overcentralisation in the metagame whatsoever.

I agree with Anti, the only reason why it should be moved up to Ubers is Sand Veil. But that begs the question, what about other pokemon which have similar traits, like Froslass, Mamoswine and Gliscor?

 

[Syaoran]

Other pokemon with similar traits to Sand Veil aren't that threatening in the first place. Froslass and Mamoswine require Hail, which is a lot less common than Sandstorm, and they don't have +2 ATK/Sp.ATK stat up move either. They have more weaknesses as well. Cacturne is tricky, but is very frail and slow.

 

[Aquilae]

If Luck is included in the formula for determining a pokemon's tier status, why are the pokemon with Sand Veil (Gliscor, Cacturne, Dugtrio, Sandslash) and Snow Cloak (Froslass, Glaceon, Mamoswine) are not even considered for a bump in tier status considering that they can abuse the evasion boost too?

Granted, none of these pokemon have the same sweeping style as Garchomp (set-up sweeper), but each can be threatening in their own right (sans Dugtrio).

For one, all of the aforementioned pokemon learn Substitute, so it is not fair to pin Garchomp down and feel that it is uber because of Sub/Sand Veil hax. Furthermore, Gliscor, Cacturne and Sandslash can Swords Dance and be threatening in their own right, Gliscor can Baton Pass, Cacturne gains priority moves and physical STAB, and Sandslash can act as a sweeper in a pinch whilst still getting SR down.

Froslass gains status moves and has base 115 speed, and can get Spikes down. Mamoswine has a priority move in Ice Shard and base 130 attack. Glaceon has base 130 SpA and above average defences.

What I am trying to say is that Luck shouldn't be a major factor in the tier status determination, other pokemon who abuse it can be threatening in their own right.