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Pokemon Tier Discussion/Resource

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I just must throw out there that this whole wave of pokemon being shoved into OUs is ridiculous. Wobbuffet and Garchomp are at least debatable - both sides can admit that. With Attack Deoxys, which breaks UBER walls, OU just becomes a mini uber metagame, and with that it is destroyed. I say we just leave the tiers be =/

And I agree with the checks thing, since that's what you have to do with many OU threats, especially when running a BeachBoy style team.
 
Aqua, you said the exact same thing that I have said-we are tearing the game apart too far. We were doing just fine before we decided to "balance" it, with all of these bannings. I don't mean clause, or even ubers, but now every five seconds, there is another un-uber poke, or an uber OU. Just leave em' be.

I understand that it is necessary, but I liked it when Wobbo was uber, & Chomp wasn't. The good ole' days.
 
The problem is, DP is very different from ADV, which is what most of the tier lists are based on. With the current shifts in BL/UU, this proves that ADV tier lists cannot be relied upon to give an accurate measure of a pokemon's standing in a tier.

Basically Wobbuffet was Uber in ADV but may not be Uber in DP. I feel that the only qualification for it being uber is the Tickle set and the fact that its extremely irritating.

The reason why these debates are going on is to increase the number of viable pokemon in the OU/UU metagame, balance them. I recently read a thread on Smogon that gave a look on the tier system, basically the aim of the tiers are:

To increase the number of viable pokemon

and at the same time

create a balanced metagame

Both of them need to be equal to ensure a good tier system, if there are too many viable things in OU balance would be compromised, and there will be overcentralisation.
If there is a perfectly balanced metagame everything would be banned to Ubers except Unown or something, which would compromise on the first aim.

How is the balance between them determined? It seems a lot of pointless debates have been emerging about this, and I would like for it to be simple, basically make a usage cap - like around top 47 of pokemon used.
Next would be to find statistics of overcentralisation and deal with the pokemon in question. I believe that overcentralisation is about the only viable reason why a pokemon must be sent to Ubers.

The obvious way to find overcentralisation is to test it, which might induce unwanted or unwarranted changes in the metagame for that time period. Personally I would suggest that testing only be done when it is more or less confirmed that the pokemon is not potentially gamebreaking and that viable speculations have been made, and the community would welcome the test. Stuff like Attack Deoxys and Darkrai should not be considered at all.
 
Which iswhat this whole thing was-a pointless argument.

Someone needs to make a definite definition of tier so we can, I dunno, finally decide on something?

Personally, I love Wobbo, been looking for a reason to use it.
 
sims796 said:
Which iswhat this whole thing was-a pointless argument.

Someone needs to make a definite definition of tier so we can, I dunno, finally decide on something?

Personally, I love Wobbo, been looking for a reason to use it.
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I agree with sims. I don't think I've ever seen the definition to "tier". this would mean that we all have several different ideas as to what "tier" means and what goes in which one. Thus we'll never be able to make a decision if we're all basing ecisions off of a different definition to "tier". It won't be exactly easy to define it, but could we not all compromise and come to a mutual understanding of the word?
As for Wobby, the only counter I've seen to him is a taunt user. So is it not just a slight bit overcentralising to have a taunter on each team just in case Wobby appears?
 
Xairmo said:
As for Wobby, the only counter I've seen to him is a taunt user. So is it not just a slight bit overcentralising to have a taunter on each team just in case Wobby appears?
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No. Toxic assassinates Wobbuffet, and any attack that can beat it in 2 or three hits (a lot of attacks, mind you) waste it. special attackers with dark typing and physical attackers with ghost typing also win.

Wobbuffet has no counters because of its ability, but beating it is easier than people think.

I agree that the real problem is the tickle set.

EDIT: also, if people don't carry taunters, Wobby isn't over centralizing anything whether that's the only way to beat it or not.

For example, if the only way to beat Dragonite is to use something with the move Torment, yet few people use Torment for the sole purpose of beating old Dragonite, then Dragonite is not over centralizing the metagame.
 
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sub attack sets work well against wobbu as well, allowing STAB and harder hits to 2HKO it. also, tickle no longer hits through subs so again, subattack sets are superior in many ways. encore, however, still hits through subs but wobbu has to switch out to bring in a counter.

subattack sets aren't overcentralizing anything as they are very versatile in its usage. people argue that subattack sets are a poor excuse for having poor prediction skills but it's a very viable strategy that doesn't place so much expectation on walls and tanks to take hits all the time.
 
They're in the NFE tier. Most of them could be considered UU though, like Dusklops, Chansey, etc. etc.
 
airconditioning said:
Generally, NFE Pokes aren't allowed in UU, excluding Pokes like Trapinch. If they were allowed in UU, Pokes like Sneasel and Chansey would turn UU into OU-Lite, which nobody wants.
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Lmao @ Dorapion in UU...

I really think nowadays people would be fine with NFE Pokemon in UU. Considering the Pokemon that they're now putting in it.
 
Very good point, Ooka. That's the sole reason Wigglytuff is banned from UU.
 
In my opinion, excluding NFE's which have significantly different movepools, types and traits which differentiate it from its evolution, like Scyther and Scizor, but not Shelgon and Salamence because Shelgon is outclassed by Salamence in every way, should be put into the same tier as their evolution.

For example, Chansey is OU because Blissey is OU.

Combusken is BL because Blaziken is BL.

Nosepass is UU because Probopass is UU.

Scyther is BL and Scizor is OU as it has stuff like STAB Aerial Ace and higher speed which differentiate it from its evolution, as well as Bug/Flying being a completely different type than Bug/Steel, as well as the two being played differently.
 
^ Scyther is still UU. Wigglytuff is UU. Porygon2 is BL and NFE.

I support the current UU tier, well maybe excluding Leafeon just because of his fast Swords Dance passing. Chansey, Dusclops and the likes will ruin everything that is different in the UU tier.. and frankly it won't benefit anything for their addition. People used to argue that Gligar should be UU, but now that Pinsir has been moved up to BL, there's no need.
 
Actually, you've convinced me. I guess someone with a team of the best NFEs could destroy a standard UU team.
 
First off, Wigglytuff is sooo teh uberz. If I have to explain why...it's a sad day in Pokecommunity.

Anyway, I got Ooka confused with Alakazaam, in which unevolved pokes makes this game too much like mini OU. Like Wobbofet in Advanced.
 
Wait just a minute, what's this about Garchomp going Uber? Sure, it has good stats, but it isn't unbeatable. Right off the top of my head, both Weavile & Starmie can outspeed it in general (not counting Scarf boosts) AND get a 4x SE hit on it, and even with STAB in the case of Weavile. Even if it does use a berry to decrease the damage, that's still its only item, which means no Choice item to ruin the previously-mentioned Pokemon's speed advantage.

That just leaves Sand Veil. ...Now, seriously, if we're going to make Garchomp Uber because of possible (but unlikely) Sand Veil abuse, then that's kind of sad, isn't it? The evasion increase is still inferior to just ONE Double Team. Besides, Froslass gets a similar boost in Hail and Garchomp's pre-evolutions also have Sand Veil, so why not ban those Pokemon while we're at it? :O Yes, I've played with Garchomp, and I've even tried using it in a Sandstorm, but I hardly noticed any difference. Yes, that is personal experience and not exactly admissable as evidence, but I honestly doubt that one situational level of evasion will make that much of a difference.

...You know what, what if we did something similar to what Lati@s was in ADV: if the player also has a Sand Stream/Sandstorm user, Garchomp is Uber (even though I still disagree with that from experience alone). If not, then it's just OU.

Of course......this is just one person's thoughts on the matter, so respond to them however you wish, if you even do.
 
Ichaste Pekoni said:
Wait just a minute, what's this about Garchomp going Uber? Sure, it has good stats, but it isn't unbeatable. Right off the top of my head, both Weavile & Starmie can outspeed it in general (not counting Scarf boosts) AND get a 4x SE hit on it, and even with STAB in the case of Weavile. Even if it does use a berry to decrease the damage, that's still its only item, which means no Choice item to ruin the previously-mentioned Pokemon's speed advantage.
He's pretty powerful without Choice alone.
That just leaves Sand Veil. ...Now, seriously, if we're going to make Garchomp Uber because of possible (but unlikely) Sand Veil abuse, then that's kind of sad, isn't it? The evasion increase is still inferior to just ONE Double Team. Besides, Froslass gets a similar boost in Hail and Garchomp's pre-evolutions also have Sand Veil, so why not ban those Pokemon while we're at it? :O Yes, I've played with Garchomp, and I've even tried using it in a Sandstorm, but I hardly noticed any difference. Yes, that is personal experience and not exactly admissable as evidence, but I honestly doubt that one situational level of evasion will make that much of a difference.
We ban Latias because of a possible Soul Dew use. Glalade, Gliscor & friends aren't nearly as dangerous in a Sandstorm at all compared to Garchomp. And yeah, from one person who has been swept because he missed, AND got hit by a crit on more than one battle, that hax can be painful.
...You know what, what if we did something similar to what Lati@s was in ADV: if the player also has a Sand Stream/Sandstorm user, Garchomp is Uber (even though I still disagree with that from experience alone). If not, then it's just OU.

Of course......this is just one person's thoughts on the matter, so respond to them however you wish, if you even do.
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Have a look at previous post, though you probably have. I'm tired.
 
sims796 said:
He's pretty powerful without Choice alone.
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True, but so are a lot of other OUs.

sims796 said:
Glalade, Gliscor & friends aren't nearly as dangerous in a Sandstorm at all compared to Garchomp. And yeah, from one person who has been swept because he missed, AND got hit by a crit on more than one battle, that hax can be painful.
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Indeed, but then again, that needs a Sandstorm, which takes me back to my last point. And hax is ALWAYS painful. It also happens a lot even without Garchomp. Just because a Pokemon has a bit more hax than some others *points strongly at Togekiss* doesn't mean it should be banned, right? Let me rephrase that: there are Pokemon who generate a LOT more hax than Garchomp does, so banning him on that as a basis while those others remain is rather silly.
 
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Ichaste Pekoni said:
True, but so are a lot of other OUs.



Indeed, but then again, that needs a Sandstorm, which takes me back to my last point. And hax is ALWAYS painful. It also happens a lot even without Garchomp. Just because a Pokemon has a bit more hax than some others *points strongly at Togekiss* doesn't mean it should be banned, right?
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Actually, yeah. Togekiss is hampered by speed. Many people doesn't realize that Sandstorm is ridiculously easy to set up-requires only a switch-in, and they will always have the opportunity to switch in.

Hax is a tricky thing, but it is uncontrollable often. By that logic, Bright Powder should be allowed. And is often used with Chomp for some reason or another. Plus, Chomp has the unique ability to take youj down if you miss. You now lose a 20% chance of hitting. We make a stinct to remove hax. Togekiss is a controlled area of hax. And easy to deal with. Along with Steadfast pokes, that little outdated strat is ruuined by Grounds (Garchomp, heh heh), faster pokes, Grumpig with Magic Coat (take that, Smarties), Electrivire, Aromatherapy, the list goes on.
 
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