6th Gen Primal Reversion Discussion & Speculation Thread

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

Dialga already has one. :P

Primal Dialga will be able to be used in battle :P ?

 

[Leaf Magics]

Great Flood, and Super Volcano sound awesome. Perhaps Rayquaza's could be called Extinction Meteor.

Extinction Meteor may be better. I was trying to link Rayquaza's attack to the asteroids that crashed with Earth during its formation.

Kyogre's is of course linked with the flood myths, while Groudon's is linked with the large supervolcano eruptions that happened many years ago.

Personally, the signature moves should go about like this
Kyogre: Tsunami(120 base powered Surf, chance to paralysis)
Groudon: Volcanic Tremor(120 base powered Earthquake, chance to burn)
Rayquaza: Dragon Crush(120 base powered Dragon Claw, chance to flinch)

Well at least, I want that.

Those would work too, I just suggested the ones I did because of the ancient theme. Rayquaza's attack is harder to decide. Besides an attack explicitly relating to dragons, something to do with meteors or ozone would also fit nicely.

There is a Mega symbol near Kyogre's name in the HP Bar on the screenshot on the Corocoro page. If this is Ancient Devolution, why is it also Mega Evolution then? The weird thing is, Groudon doesn't have that Mega Symbol. Strange, huh?

There will be new moves for Groudon and Kyogre, it is technically confirmed. You can see them using new moves.
I think these new moves are dual-typed moves. Groudon's signature move might be called Magma Tremor/Volcanic Tremor and is a Ground-type move, but also doing damage like how it would be as a Fire type move. (Same thing as Flying Press).

Kyogre's move might be Great Flood/Downpour and is a Water-type move that also does damage like an Ice/Psychic type move.

I think that Ancient Groudon and Kyogre will get unique symbols for them. Kyogre's will be light blue with an Alpha symbol on it, and Groudon's will be red with an Omega symbol on it. Groudon's symbol is hard to notice because it would be red and be against a background with other warm colors, while Kyogre's is easy to see because it is light blue against a dark background in the screenshots.

This was another reason why I thought Fossil Devolution would be separate from Ancient Devolution, because Ancient would use unique symbols for it and be reserved for the mascots.

Also, dual-type ancient moves would be another great choice in my opinion.

I think it's because Prehistoric devolution are likely just Mega Evolutions, but that calls back the Pokemon's lost power rather than giving them power like in the case with the other stones.

Well, I came up with it because someone mentioned making Aerodactyl's Mega into a Devolution.

 

[Jakeremix]

Primal Dialga will be able to be used in battle :P ?

pshh yeah ofc

I was just joking. xP

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

pshh yeah ofc

I was just joking. xP

I know, but how awesome would it be if it really was used.

 

[Leaf Magics]

I already posted part of this elsewehere, but it would be appropriate here too.

I think that Ancient Groudon and Kyogre will get unique symbols for them. Kyogre's will be light blue with an Alpha symbol on it, and Groudon's will be red with an Omega symbol on it. Groudon's symbol is hard to notice because it would be red and be against a background with other warm colors, while Kyogre's is easy to see because it is light blue against a dark background in the screenshots.

Also, I think Ancient Devolving will count as Mega Evolving in that you will not be able to Ancient Evolve and also Mega Evolve another Pokémon in the same battle.

 

[Altairis]

Primal Dialga is something different! It's not a form but rather a state of mind that calls Dialga "Primal" since it has lost its ability to control time and have mercy. So nope, not a devolution but a deterioration of Dialga's mind.

I think only Rayquaza would get one since its in a trio, but I can't see anyone else getting it since the other legends are rulers of a specific element and it would kinda suck if Dialga lost control of time (as demonstrated in PMD) or Palkia lost the ability to keep space in order (like in the Almia Ranger event) due to time passing and them not being as powerful. Ocean and land don't really need any legends to keep them in check after they were created.

 

[Jakeremix]

Primal Dialga is something different! It's not a form but rather a state of mind that calls Dialga "Primal" since it has lost its ability to control time and have mercy. So nope, not a devolution but a deterioration of Dialga's mind.

I'm aware. It's still crazy how similar he is to Primal Kyogre/Groudon, but I don't really think it will still be "Primal" in English, so that'll be where the similarities end.

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

Primal Dialga is something different! It's not a form but rather a state of mind that calls Dialga "Primal" since it has lost its ability to control time and have mercy. So nope, not a devolution but a deterioration of Dialga's mind.

I think only Rayquaza would get one since its in a trio, but I can't see anyone else getting it since the other legends are rulers of a specific element and it would kinda suck if Dialga lost control of time (as demonstrated in PMD) or Palkia lost the ability to keep space in order (like in the Almia Ranger event) due to time passing and them not being as powerful. Ocean and land don't really need any legends to keep them in check after they were created.

Good point...
Well I guess that Xerneas and Yvetal could get one considering they give life and take it, but they don't necessary influence all life and death unlike how Dialga and Palkia influence Space-Time. Or maybe just Zygarde...

I think though that may actually end up making some other kind evolution to make them special, well at least Zygarde.

 

[SnowpointQuincy]

The Weather Trio are "Super Ancient Pokemon". These form changes represent their true power from thousands of years ago.

These will be regular form changes like all the other Legend Form Changes. The name is just flavor specific to them.

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

The Weather Trio are "Super Ancient Pokemon". These form changes represent their true power from thousands of years ago.

These will be regular form changes like all the other Legend Form Changes. The name is just flavor specific to them.

I don't think so, why would they be compared to Mega Evolution if they're just formes? They are most likely Mega Evolution style formes but that call upon the ancient power and are battle only.

 

[Pepperton]

Although I think the moves may disappear after they revert to their normal forme. It could work by replacing one of their attacks with the new forme's signature attack during the transformation. Kyogre could get Water Spout replaced, Groudon Eruption, and Rayquaza could perhaps have Outrage replaced.

That would suffice, seeing as their new signature moves would probably be just as, if not more powerful than their regular forms' signature moves. Possibly in an upcoming release like E3 or the Get TV spot, I want them to explain these forms' relevance in ORAS and to the plot of the remakes, because right now there's not much known about devolution. In X and Y, Mega evolution was explained quite thoroughly in-game, so hopefully they'll treat this similarly.

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

That would suffice, seeing as their new signature moves would probably just as, if not more powerful than their regular forms' signature moves. Possibly in an upcoming release like E3 or the Get TV spot, I want them to explain these forms' relevance in ORAS and to the plot of the remakes, because right now there's not much known about devolution. In X and Y, Mega evolution was explained quite thoroughly in-game, so hopefully they'll treat this similarly.

I want to know more about them too, but I'm getting a sense that they'll save the explanation for next month so we'll be hyped during the rest of the month...

I think Steven or the leaders of Aqua and Magma will explain it to us during the giant clash and they turn into those forms.

 

["HoneyClaws"]

I'm actually interested in Ancient Devolution because not only does it not really make sense from a biological standpoint and I'm interested to see how Game Freak justifies it, but also I'm interested in how it affects the Pokemon in general. A lot of Pokemon are being implied or mentioned as having different attributes in the distant past (Gastrodon having a shell, Magikarp explicitly being stronger long ago, etc.), and it will be interesting to see each stage of a Pokemon's "Darwinian evolution", as it were.

Standard evolution in pokemon already is incorrect with the scientific definition of the term so how this is percieved shouldnt be a shock. Though they can easily just say this is just an AWAKENING state for the creation legendaries and not really a transformation.

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

Standard evolution in pokemon already is incorrect with the scientific definition of the term so how this is percieved shouldnt be a shock. Though they can easily day this is just an AWAKENING state for the creation legendaries and not really a transformation.

They should've done that with Mewtwo Y...alas they didn't call it Awakened Mewtwo. Apparently Megas are close to "Awakened" states, so in a way it could be seeing how Ancient devolution is similar to Mega Evolution.

 

[fenyx4]

So as shown in the recent Corocoro leaks, Kyogre and Groudon receive a "Mega Evolution"-esque process known as Ancient Devolution. Apparently not much is known about this new "mechanic" other than this is used by Kyogre and Groudon to like tap to its primeval roots.

Well, at this time only Kyogre and Groudon are capable of this regression.

Do you think there will be more Pokemon subject to this primal regression? Do you think this is a new mechanic introduced in the games that is completely different from Mega Evolution? Is Ancient Devolution just some sort of weird fancy name for Mega Evolution for Kyogre and Groudon and nothing else?

Discuss!

Note: This thread is for speculating Ancient Devolutions and not for Kyogre and Groudon. As much as possible speculate them in the other thread.

For the process of "Atomic Regression/Ancient 'Devolution'" (I'm going to use the term "Atomic Regression" hereafter until the English name is confirmed; 'devolution' justs makes things even more convoluted than they are @_@), I hope that only Rayquaza is capable of it. I imagine that the "Primeval" Formes/states of Groudon and Kyogre will have more than 10 measly points added to their Base Stat Totals (BSTs) to showcase their unadulterated strength, so if Rayquaza is going to continue to be the "mediator" of the "Super-ancient Pokemon/Weather Trio", Rayquaza will likely need a similar power boost to match or surpass its weather-manipulating brethren..

I'm actually interested in Ancient Devolution because not only does it not really make sense from a biological standpoint and I'm interested to see how Game Freak justifies it, but also I'm interested in how it affects the Pokemon in general. A lot of Pokemon are being implied or mentioned as having different attributes in the distant past (Gastrodon having a shell, Magikarp explicitly being stronger long ago, etc.), and it will be interesting to see each stage of a Pokemon's "Darwinian evolution", as it were.

That would be interesting, although I'd probably be fine if said Pokemon got Mega Evolutions of some sort instead (which has at least been satisfied with Magikarp's evolution and the fossil Pokemon Aerodactyl..)

Primal Dialga is something different! It's not a form but rather a state of mind that calls Dialga "Primal" since it has lost its ability to control time and have mercy. So nope, not a devolution but a deterioration of Dialga's mind.

I think only Rayquaza would get one since its in a trio, but I can't see anyone else getting it since the other legends are rulers of a specific element and it would kinda suck if Dialga lost control of time (as demonstrated in PMD) or Palkia lost the ability to keep space in order (like in the Almia Ranger event) due to time passing and them not being as powerful. Ocean and land don't really need any legends to keep them in check after they were created.

Regarding the "state of mind" thing, I recall reading somewhere (my memory's fuzzy at the moment; I would like to say the dialogue was from a non-playable character (NPC) during Pokemon Emerald's Weather Trio crisis, or maybe from someone in the Pokemon anime during the Advanced Generation saga) that Groudon and Kyogre fight with each other not because they want to indulge in such combat, but because they cannot control their own powers (similar to this "Primal Dialga" that I keep encountering on the Internet). "Primeval" Groudon and Kyogre could entail an induced mental regression to an "ancient" state of mind where they kept their powers unchecked during the early state of the Pokemon World/Earth. With the removal of the mental blocks that confined the expression of their powers, Groudon and Kyogre subsequently gain immense, unrestrained abilities (sporting physical changes that better reflect their primordial appearances) and loose their raw elemental energies in battle.

I think Dialga gaining an abnormal "Atomic/Ancient Regression" state would be a nice tie-in with the Pokemon Mystery Dungeon series (and more sensible, since Dialga's affinity with the concept of time allows it to date back to/interact with ancient eras and such), although I really don't think it is necessary... Additionally, one for the "original dragon" that involves Reshiram, Zekrom, and Kyurem would be neat to see, although I think traces of the "original dragon" manifest nicely as Black Kyurem and White Kyurem. Anything else is pushing it, in my opinion. Aside from the Weather Trio, only Pokemon that are legendary version mascots and/or have a Base Stat Total around 680 (specifically, Lugia, Ho-Oh, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, Heatran, Regigigas, Reshiram, Zekrom, Kyurem, Xerneas, Yveltal, Zygarde) should be qualified as "Atomic/Ancient Regression" candidates, in my opinion; nevertheless, I think that the Weather Trio are the best suited/"ancient" to pull off the concept of "Atomic/Ancient Regression" well. Most of the group that I just mentioned are powerful enough (bar Regigigas due to its hindering Ability of Slow Start) and demonstrate their "legendary" Abilities reasonably well, so I'd prefer it if they didn't get any more power boosts.

Standard evolution in pokemon already is incorrect with the scientific definition of the term so how this is percieved shouldnt be a shock. Though they can easily day this is just an AWAKENING state for the creation legendaries and not really a transformation.

"Awakening" seems more like a mental thing in my opinion, although modern media (particularly videogames) tend to treat 'awakening' as a fancy term for a Super Mode, regardless of whether physical alterations are exhibitied or not... "Awakening" would probably make sense more than "devolution/regression"... the Weather Trio were apparently asleep/dormant for a long time before Team Magma and Team Aqua rudely interrupted their centuries-/millenia-long nap, so maybe they need some time to get themselves together before displaying their true ferocity (similar to the perception of how the Slow Start Ability for Regigigas reflects how it struggles to get primed for battle after so many years of being inactive).

---

As for devolution in terms of "reverse metamorphosis" (like Raichu becoming a Pikachu), it would be an interesting mechanic for most non-legendary Pokemon (although then we would really be veering into Digimon territory {XD}).

 

[DJTiki]

I want to know more about them too, but I'm getting a sense that they'll save the explanation for next month so we'll be hyped during the rest of the month...

I think Steven or the leaders of Aqua and Magma will explain it to us during the giant clash and they turn into those forms.

If I were to guess one thing, is that, we will get a gameplay trailer. Plus an in-game look at Kyorge and Groudon. Itll be similar to XY gameplay trailers. With a bunch of jumbled stuff and some legendary action. And we might even get some explanation on some of the new mechanics. And alot on some character design changes. What we wont see post-game content at all. Oh and to drive it home, theyll announce Diancie to be coming to XY.

 

[fenyx4]

Posted this in another thread:

Regarding the "state of mind" thing, I recall reading somewhere (my memory's fuzzy at the moment; I would like to say the dialogue was from a non-playable character (NPC) during Pokemon Emerald's Weather Trio crisis, or maybe from someone in the Pokemon anime during the Advanced Generation saga) that Groudon and Kyogre fight with each other not because they want to indulge in such combat, but because they cannot control their own powers (similar to this "Primal Dialga" that I keep encountering on the Internet). "Primeval" Groudon and Kyogre could entail an induced mental regression to an "ancient" state of mind where they kept their powers unchecked during the early state of the Pokemon World/Earth. With the removal of the mental blocks that confined the expression of their powers, Groudon and Kyogre subsequently gain immense, unrestrained abilities (sporting physical changes that better reflect their primordial appearances) and loose their raw elemental energies in battle.

Because everyone (including myself, I'll admit) loves to joke about how Kyogre making it rain would only take water from the ocean and put it back into the ocean, not making the sea levels rise at all

{XD} I never really thought about it like that, but that does make more sense. XD

I know....
Ancient Mew: Ancestry(gets STAB boost from all moves)

"Ancestry" seems like quite an Ability-ish name.. XD

Ground/Fire would be awesome for Groudon, but no love for Kyogre, i dont think it can have a good duel type. Water/???, we will never know.

Water/Ice is the only one that suffices, in my opinion (as ice is a form of water, and if any Pokemon is "OMG111!!!WAAATTTEERRR", it's Kyogre. {XD} :t382: )

As fitting as Ground/Fire would be for Groudon, I really don't want it to have even more of a weakness to Kyogre's Water-Type. It's the Continent Pokémon, not the Magma or Lava Pokémon, so if they both keep their mono-typing I think it would be acceptable.

Well..don't underwater volcanic eruptions contribute more to the landmass of continents..and stuff? XD I think Groudon should at least have some sort of reference; if it's going to be purely associated with earth rather than fire/heat, you might as well make its Ability Sand Stream. A lot of Groudon's depictions have it in fiery/molten-looking areas, so I feel some fire reference is appropriate. But yeah, the quadruple (4x) weakness is not really appealing. :x

If this is about making Prehistoric Groudon and Kyogre be on more similar footing, I think Groudon's Ability could do more than just eliminating its Water weakness and still be reasonable.

All this Ability would do is make Groudon take regular damage from Kyogre's STAB Water attacks, an advantage which Kyogre already has over Groudon simply because of its type.

And then of course Kyogre would still probably have an advantage over Groudon, since Kyogre could also get another new Ability that gives it some boost that Groudon won't be able to have because its Ability is already set on just reducing the damage it takes from Kyogre.

Although this might be feasible, I kind of dislike it when a legendary version mascot duo's Abilities are asymmetrical (as they might be in this case by Groudon requiring a buff to its defenses/resistances).. I'm willing to make an exception for Groudon, though. XD I feel like their Abilities could be identical save for Groudon getting a "hidden/passive" resistance to Water attacks by virtue of its Ability (kind of how Sand Veil boosts evasion within sandstorm conditions and provides immunity to the sandstorm itself, as Cacnea nicely demonstrates with its monotype Grass typing).

!! There's a tier called Hackmons!! You can basically do whatever you want with Pokemon in that tier.

*shudders at Sturdy Shedinja*

I certainly don't recall it being necessary for legendary Pokemon to be equal in terms of advantages against each other. In real life, water is more prominent than land on Earth, and many other things about it that make water extremely important, like it making up most of the human body. Personally don't see why Groudon has to have some equalizing factor to make it stand a chance against Kyogre.

There's not really a "rule" :P, but considering that a lot of the legendary mascot duos/trios seem to be diametric or "equal" in certain aspects (from level-up moves to availability to Base Stat Totals to coloration to offensive orientation (like great offenses vs great defenses, or physical moves vs special moves), I guess it would be nice if the "duos" were on equal footing in battle as well. The "prominence of sea over land in real life" concept makes sense, although I feel Groudon should be able to stand up to Kyogre somehow...the Special-based Fire-type moves of Fire Blast and Eruption and the Grass-type move of Solar Beam (which even is supposed to benefit from the sunlight) don't help matters with Groudon's greater Attack stat, and Ground-type moves (primarily Earthquake) usually don't get boosted by anything other than Same Type Attack Bonus (STAB), so Groudon is likely to get curbstomped by Kyogre regardless. The type imbalance is bad enough (although I guess roughly acceptable), but in addition to that, Kyogre gets STAB and added power via Special Attack enhancement and rain boosts (not even mentioned the Ice-type offensives which still benefit from the Special Attack), which hardly seems like a fair fight to me. XD

Maybe they'll boost Groudon's Special attack so that it'll be better able to take advantage of moves like Eruption, Fire Blast, and Solar beam.

This would be a good idea (although I feel like something like that would've been done when the group of pre-Kalos Pokemon's Base Stats were getting modified); otherwise, they could give Groudon more powerful and physical Grass and Electric moves to use against Kyogre..

Anyway, I see the "Atomic/Ancient Regression" thing as simply a fancy variant of Mega Evolution (although it could also be a Rotom-esque Forme change that has higher Base Stats; however, they seem way too imposing/"powered-up" to be just Forme changes (which I mostly see as enabling a Pokemon to receive different powers/functions while retaining its "level") to me). Kyogre forcibly bonded with Ash's Pikachu in the anime, so maybe the "Atomic/Ancient Regression" thing involves a forced bond with Brendan/May and/or Maxie/Archie at some point.. I feel like the Red Orb and Blue Orbs will have their latent powers unleashed and essentially serve as Mega Stones under different names (if not Groudonite and Kyogreite, maybe Omega Stone and Alpha Stone or something similar.. >_>).

As for Abilities, I'm guessing they'll be revamped allow 8-turn weather effects (to allow Groudon and Kyogre to surpass the myriad of other Drought/Drizzle-laden Pokemon) - basically Drought/Drizzle bundled with Magma Rock/Damp Rock, respectively. Maybe Groudon's Ability might passively reduce damage from Water attacks.

The potential of "ancient" Signature Moves is promising (and it's about time, too; it was bad enough that they lost their Signature Abilities and had to cling onto the somewhat-distributed Eruption and Water Spout!)...

As for names, I'm hoping that "Primeval Groudon/Primeval Kyogre" (or alternately, Groudon/Kyogre in Primeval Forme) get used.. The term "prehistoric" seems a bit too common/bland for me (I'd like a name with "pizzazz", like how they opted for 'Therian' Forme over a simpler 'Beast' Form), "primal" reminds me of primates/monkeys (Primal Dialga narrowly averts this XD), and "primordial" reminds me of weak, primitive, old organisms (no offense to them, though!); I hardly see the term "primeval" get thrown about unless someone wants to showcase their thesaurus skills or something. XD I'm hoping that we get a good English name for "Ancient/Atomic Regression" or whatever it's called aside from 'devolution' (which, if it has to be used as a term in Pokemon, seems more fitting for something like Devolution Spray where a Pokemon reverts to a previous metamorphic stage; I doubt Groudon/Kyogre will become weaker physically and lower their Base Stats..).

 

[Pepperton]

You're right, it isn't a fair fight, Kyogre would win every time. Will they do anything about it with these prehistoric forms? Maybe. I just don't feel it's necessary, especially if you consider Rayquaza as the peacemaker of the trio, equalizing both of them, as is represented in various fan art pieces of the three together, haha.

 

[Angello]

Well, I think that it's not a new type of form... I don't know, but apparently it'll be only other mega-evolution with an special name for Groudon and Kyogre.

About other Pokémon... I think that Rayquaza deserves an Ancient Devolution too, of course... It stopped the great battle between Groudon and Kyogre in Gen 3... Why not here with an interesting mega-evolution? This is my opinion.

 

[L0RD G3NGAR]

Devolution, does this mean they will be weaker?