Project Max Revive: FF&W Revitalization Project

[Breezy]

A plot bunny does not equal a plot idea - a plot bunny, as I have always understood it, is a plot idea that gets you to chase it, leading nowhere. I've slapped together my viewpoints on the term.

Well, er, no. A plot bunny is called a plot bunny because it gnaws at the brain (like bunnies) until you write something about it. You know, I'm sure this has happened to you when you're trying to sleep, but some awesome idea for a story pops in your head, and you have trouble sleeping because of it. That is a plot bunny.

Annoying buggers, no? =P

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotBunny

You're right in the sense that it's hard to ignore it, but it doesn't mean an idea that will lead you nowhere. You may have gotten that definition because people often use other people's plot bunnies (think of a fanfic adoption thread) because the original creator doesn't know what to do with it, or is too lazy to use the idea.

But really, it has come under general acceptance that plot bunny is referring to a plot idea anyway.

Edit here: And if we were to use your definition of plot bunny (that it's an idea that leads no where), then the thread title actually seems better suited because you have other people trying to help you figure out where you want to go with this story while hammering out the kinks.

~ ~ ~

Edit: Also, because the first post asked for an outsider opinion ... I can't really comment on the planned stickies as, well, you guys have that handled, so I'm going to address something different that concerns all the stickies. That question is: who's going to be reading these stickies if you can't get anyone new to come into them? Why is it that new members (and maybe some new members who are experienced in other forums) don't seem to be really entering these sorts of conversations?

Tl;dr summary: This is a post about your forum's vibe; it does not necessarily mean this is actually happening in the forum. A lot of people I talked to outside your community seem to be turned off by the tone that is being reflected in this forum – that is, they get a feeling that the veteran members gives off an air of them knowing everything and all disagreements are wrong. A newbie's opinion doesn't seem to hold the same weight as a veteran's, and that's not how it should work. If agreements go on for too long, the tone becomes more hostile than constructive. Basically, don't jump to assumptions, keep your tone neutral, and fully read and understand posts, even if you don't agree with them.

In short, you have to address HOW you're posting and not just what improvements need to be made because what's the point of these shiny new stickies if no one, besides you guys, posts in them? Newbies will come and help if they don't think they'll get their head bitten off from it. It is a process that requires both sides to come to some sort of middle ground. New members who are experienced with forums will have no problem coming in and butting heads because they're probably use to it by now (ahem), but as for the new, like new-to-forums, member ... well, it's damn scary.

Like your first day of high school. Relive that horror.

The spoil is just me rambling about what I said above, but with example goodness!

Spoiler:

I'm really glad to see that you're taking steps to improve the forum. It is a lot of work (just looking at it makes me go eek D: ), but I'm sure it'll be well worth it once you achieve the sort of forum you want to perceive to the outside community.

But let's talk about that: the outside community. I'm not all that sure if you're really hitting the core of your problem with why newbie authors don't read stickies or why new members seem tentative to post. The solutions andconcepts you have now have are awesome and will fit well ... once you figure out why no one new seems to be reading these threads or hardly posting in your FFL in the first place.

Now, take this with a grain of salt. This post is commenting on the VIBE that your forum is currently sending out. You may or may not be actually doing what I'm going to tell here, but as long as this vibe is being broadcast, then the new member is going to feel like that is what the forum is going to be like.

To rephrase my previous post in the FFL:

As a somewhat outsider looking in, I can sympathize with the new author trying to post here. Conversation here goes a mile a minute, and it is hard to keep up, and while the community is obviously tight-knit and friendly, it does seem intimidating as a new author to try to make a name for himself in this thread.

I'm going to expand on this. Why does it seem intimidating for a newbie to converse with you, the veterans of PC?

(1) The cliques. There have been attempts to break the barriers–again, great job–but they're not fully broken down. The divide between new members vs. veteran members is still clearly apparent; neither side doesn't seem to be making huge attempts to mingle with the other side:

--(1a) the new member may be turned off and feel outcast because you all are so close and may feel like they are intruding. There are often hostile tones, intentional or not, if the new member continues to disagree with a veteran member.
--(1b) the veteran member may be turned off because it has been proved time and time again that new members act moronic or just don't listen.

And I empathize with (1b) being a veteran on another forum and an active reviewer there currently. There is a lot of work that comes with putting in reviews with all the stories that are in your forum. But don't generalize like that, that all newbies won't listen or need to calm down because you think they're getting riled up. Throughout the mesh of authors who won't listen is someone who actually will. Not all new members are exactly new to the "forum" game – a few might actually be well-known in one forum but not anywhere else, and they certainly don't need to be talked down to or told to "calm it down" just because they do not agree with the majority.

This brings me to my next point. I've seen things like this "Give it a rest, [name]" or "I'm going to wait for someone experienced (aka a veteran) member to review me" because some of you seem stuck on the notion that veteran = knows all (and that certainly isn't the case; I've read posts that I highly disagreed with in the brainstorming threads) and newbie = moron (again, that's certainly not the case). Even if the new member gives off an air that he knows what he is talking about, the opinion doesn't carry as much weight as a veteran's. Any member wants to feel like they're being set on equal footing; they don't want to be talked down to, coddled, what have you. Even if you think their opinion is stupid, even if you are tired of the argument, treat these people like you treat anyone else: with respect. If you continue to tell people "Give it up, ______", then your forum isn't going to be a welcoming place except within the clique you formed.

Saying things like that also doesn't avoid conflict; it only adds drama, which makes the topic change, and, quite possibly, annoys the person. You guys seem super paranoid about conflict. Conflict is a great thing; it calls out for certain changes, improvements, whatever, and as long as you keep it civil, keep your tone neutral (not condescending, angry, haughty, etc.), then a consensus will eventually be made. Yes, you may get upset, or angry, but try to keep the emotions to a minimum in your posts and then vent to a friend or your pillow buddy if needed. This requires actually understanding what is being said in each post. Give each post a chance. You may not like the person, but you may like what is being said.

Before anyone can take this, we need to answer one simple question: what goes into it? What kinds of things should happen in the lounge as opposed to the rest of the forum? What would be considered off-topic? Should the new Lounge be just for writing tips? Furthermore, how do we encourage member-to-member interaction so we don't end up just answering bold questions in one-liners and blowing off everyone else who doesn't lines in bold?

Don't narrow the focus that much so you can discuss a topic thoroughly. Or don't just move onto the next bold topic so quickly. Bold topics are great for the sake of framing and allows another person to get to another person better, but they usually don't expand past a single answer from the poster, not unless someone stirs it up with a bizarre response.

Heh, controversial questions (WHAT YOU THINK 'BOUT CANON is a good one) tend to get more response feedback. As long as you keep it civil, you should be fine. Post it more as a ... hmm. A muse, moreso, than an attack. Forum hot (topical) topics also tend to get a lot of response. I mean, just look at this thread, or the FFL posts about this topic. Lots of response about one central topic.

Jokes are great because the keep the FFL a relaxing and fun place. I wouldn't say limit it to just writing topics. People are intrigued by other people. YA RLY. That is, of course people want to know people behind the user name. I certainly do. It's why I usually talk to people outside the forum context at the forum I currently lurk at. Do you have stories that you can relate to the topic somehow? Stuff like that. The more important thing is knowing when to draw the line and to keep the fanfiction lounge about, well, fanfiction. Or writing. Or grammar. Whatever.

I honestly do have to ask this, and this is strictly because I really don't know the inner detail about what's going on. You all seem aware of some sort of problem (is this just newbies not reading stickies, or something more? I'm not all that sure). But at the same time, do you think the forum requires changing – at least to this extent? Why? What benefits do you think will happen once you do make these changes? Will the community become a more open, friendlier place? Will the forum revert back to its original, glory state? And what exactly was that "state" anyway?

Essentially, I understand that the goal is to "improve the environment," but what was the environment like before that it needs this much of a change? I understood that it was chatty in the FFL and it made it hard to stay on track and allow new members to jump in, but this is a lot of work. Are there other problems that I'm not aware of?

 

[An-chan]

. A plot bunny does not equal a plot idea - a plot bunny, as I have always understood it, is a plot idea that gets you to chase it, leading nowhere. I've slapped together my viewpoints on the term.

I disagree with the "leading nowhere"-part. If it makes you chase it, if it's entirely unnecessary and distracting, then it's a plot bunny. I think it's almost perfectly interchangeable with "plot idea", the only difference being that a plot bunny implies a much shinier, more distracting idea. It's also catchy, and I say the thread should be named as it is.

Other than that, let's see what I have to comment about...

Well, for one thing, I dislike the idea of Official Mentors for the review-a-review thing. To me, it seems like another way to promote the vets and widen the gap between veterans and newbies. And, from what I gather, that's pretty much the opposite of what you're trying to accomplish here. To be honest, I find the whole idea of reviewing reviews a bit futile, as it is a highly personal thing what kind of reviews one wants to read or write, but on the other hand, it could turn out to be very useful, so I don't know.

And - I just know you're all going to beat me up for this - I'm also not a very big fan of this whole reviewing emblem thing. Somehow the idea of people writing reviews to get shiny emblems bugs me a lot, especially when there will be visible stats of how each reviewer is processing. It's yet another number to compare to other similar numbers and that always causes competition - it could be playful, good-humoured competition, especially at first, but it could also change into something completely different. I also feel that the whole emblem thing will eat away the credibility of all less active/newer members: if you have a shiny emblem, your word is surely more convincing and reliable than that of someone who lacks any kinds of credentials. The way I see it, it's also just another way to flash around the fact you're a vet and experienced and have credentials. Members equipped with a special, shiny emblem will intimidate newer members, and this will not help the original problem - the gap between vets and newbies - at all.

Yes, emblems are irresistible and shiny, especially the one txt already made. It would be awesome to have an emblem on your favourite section. It would be awesome to have proof that you're active and really put your mind into reviews and so on and so forth. But, frankly, I don't think this'll help the integration problem any more. No, I fear the effect might be the opposite of that. I know I would be intimidated by that if I was new.

Frankly, my friends, I think you keep drifting away from the original problem. Yes, this is a revolution, but this should be something the whole writing community does together for the whole writing community. You seem to keep drifting back to what veterans can do for veterans in this revolution. Think of the newbies! How would you feel, right now, coming to all this after just having discovered the section/fanfiction in general/the fandom/whatever? Try to focus on what's really important, and this could actually go somewhere.

And sorry I haven't been here before, I kinda have these pesky entrance exams to study for.

Now, you may proceed to beat me up.

 

[Silawen]

And - I just know you're all going to beat me up for this - I'm also not a very big fan of this whole reviewing emblem thing. Somehow the idea of people writing reviews to get shiny emblems bugs me a lot, especially when there will be visible stats of how each reviewer is processing. It's yet another number to compare to other similar numbers and that always causes competition - it could be playful, good-humoured competition, especially at first, but it could also change into something completely different. I also feel that the whole emblem thing will eat away the credibility of all less active/newer members: if you have a shiny emblem, your word is surely more convincing and reliable than that of someone who lacks any kinds of credentials. The way I see it, it's also just another way to flash around the fact you're a vet and experienced and have credentials. Members equipped with a special, shiny emblem will intimidate newer members, and this will not help the original problem - the gap between vets and newbies - at all.

Yes, emblems are irresistible and shiny, especially the one txt already made. It would be awesome to have an emblem on your favourite section. It would be awesome to have proof that you're active and really put your mind into reviews and so on and so forth. But, frankly, I don't think this'll help the integration problem any more. No, I fear the effect might be the opposite of that. I know I would be intimidated by that if I was new.

I have to agree. The idea of having to write a minimum amount of reviews to get a shiny badge just doesn't sit well with me, especially because it could lead to more of a veteran/newbie divide. This is something that would be much easier to achieve for veterans - who have experience here and have reviewed a lot more often - than it would be for new arrivals.

Personally, I'd stick to one emblem only. Have it be the one that someone - Astinus? - hands out to someone who's written an exceptional review. It doesn't matter who they are or how often they review, it's about the quality of one, single review. Meaning newbies as well as veterans could get them and it's not based on how active you can be.

(Asking for any amount of posts for an emblem always rubbed me the wrong way, because some people simply have more time than others and it certainly doesn't make them more capable at reviewing. I'm a teacher, I don't have a lot of outside time, but I do spend a lot of time on my reviews. Am I therefore a worse reviewer than someone who manages to write two in the same time-span? I'd like to think not. Reviewing should be about quality, not enforced quantity. I wouldn't want to feel forced to write a certain amount of reviews if I wanted an emblem.)

Those who received the emblem could then be mentioned in the sticky - or normal thread, whatever is decided on - regarding this subject, preferably with reasoning as to why their review was chosen. That way people are shown examples of what constitutes as a good review and they could be inspired to start reviewing as well. This way they won't have to first write dozens of reviews before even qualifying. It urges people to review - because they have an immediate goal to strive for - and won't create such a divide between people because the emblem was giving for a review and not the reviewer or his post count.

 

[bobandbill]

^ That. That that that. Now I have read above on this reviewer thing... yeah, the 'needs to make a minimum amount of reviews' thing and whatnot doesn't sit well with me (and I for one never care about fancy stuff like emblems anyways =P). After all it's never easy to review and review well consistently month in month out, and good reviewing isn't even about how often you write one - it's the review itself and how it helps the author improve, etc that matters.

Well, first off, you'd need to do a grammar check. I saw a couple of typos in there. : P

Yeah, I'm aware of that. XD I was too tired to go through it again/not in the mindset to proofread something I just wrote bar the more obvious mistakes. Actually I might go fix that/attempt to do so soon...

Seriously though, it seems like a good summary; however, I did notice that you used the term 'plot bunny' an awful lot. A plot bunny does not equal a plot idea - a plot bunny, as I have always understood it, is a plot idea that gets you to chase it, leading nowhere. I've slapped together my viewpoints on the term.

"Plot idea" and "plot bunny" are not interchangable terms; are you treating the thread as an idea-sharing thread or an "Okay, I've got this cool idea I can't use, what do I do" thread?

...as the others said I thought that plot bunny meant plot idea... and definately is for ideas people may/intend to use for a fic they'll write rather than give away necessarily. =P

Of course as said the thread title/term used could be changed but eh.

Essentially, I understand that the goal is to "improve the environment," but what was the environment like before that it needs this much of a change? I understood that it was chatty in the FFL and it made it hard to stay on track and allow new members to jump in, but this is a lot of work. Are there other problems that I'm not aware of?

Breezy, I suppose you basically hit all of the problems on the head - all that with the vibe and the clique-y feel and so forth - and that's the main things that I don't feel were about a few years back.

Of course addressing and 'fixing' it completely is a different matter...

 

[Miz en Scène]

Eh... I'm feeling a bit stupid now for doing the rest of the thread before reading the posts here. While I agree with An-Chan on that the RpM thing might just widen the vet-noob rift, I'm going to address a related issue in response to that.

Personally, I'd stick to one emblem only. Have it be the one that someone - Astinus? - hands out to someone who's written an exceptional review. It doesn't matter who they are or how often they review, it's about the quality of one, single review. Meaning newbies as well as veterans could get them and it's not based on how active you can be.

Total agreement here, but there was a time --and it still is-- where the FF Community here at PC lacks in the reviews section. I'm sure vets and the like can knock up a spectacular review in half and hour or so for a fic and this happens at least once a day for one fic, but what about all the other twenty or so fics on the page that barely get a single review? For certain people, the temptation to do a long review is there and I'm sure that nobody has the time to do twenty-one long reviews a day. I've addressed the issue where rank emblems would be considered cheap, but I really couldn't put my finger on what was quality and what wasn't so I decided on a really lax criteria for the emblem from what Astinus said on what counted as reviews.

I suppose what I'm trying to say here is that these rank emblems weren't to award people for quality reviews. They were initially devised to get people to actually do reviews and stop everyone from slacking off into oblivion. The actual reviewer's emblem, was the one to award quality reviews.

Also, a bit more on what An-Chan said about statistics, post count does the same thing actually not that I completely disagree with what you said. Also, it's actually a hidden incentive because, from a psychological perspective, there's something vaguely exciting about seeing your numbers rise. That's why penny arcade games were so popular way back when.

After all it's never easy to review and review well consistently month in month out, and good reviewing isn't even about how often you write one - it's the review itself and how it helps the author improve, etc that matters.

I couldn't agree with you more, but at the moment, on the front page, I can really only see three or four constant reviewers and only one out of those four people can be considered a quality reviewer.

Anyway, because I'd feel wasted if I didn't actually post the thread draft here for comments, here it is.

Spoiler:

The Wall of Reviewers

​

Welcome and General Info
Welcome to the wall of reviewers where we record the community's best, and most frequent reviewers that offer helpful advice for the betterment of others. As you may or may not know, depending on how long you've been in the business, the writing community can be best summed up into three parts; the writers, the readers, and the reviewers. There's a gray area at where we have quality reviewers and just regular readers, but for the most part it's easy to differentiate between the two. Basically, a reviewer is one who comments on fics(Fiction/Fanfiction) and leaves a constructive comment that is aimed towards helping the writer improve upon his writing skills and a reader is one who leaves a constructive comment detailing what he liked about the fic and not necessarily stating how it could be improved upon. To recap; a reader comments(constructively) on what he liked, and a reviewer tells the writer what he likes(not essential) and helps the writer improve by picking out certain mistakes and giving comments on how they could be fixed.

What's with the thread? Is there a point?
The thread, as you may know if you've been frequenting the Writer's lounge, is the reviewer's equivalent of the fanfiction announcement thread with a twist. Basically, any reviews that you may have done recently, you post here and I'll take down your username and how many reviews you've done so far plus a review-per-month figure that shows (surprise-surprise) how many reviews you do per month.

Review-per-Month?
The review-per-month(RpM) number is the number that shows how may reviews you do per month. RpM is calculated using this formula:
(Number of Reviews)/(Months since first review recorded in the WoR thread)= xRpM

Don't worry though, I'll do the math.

Rules
Because if not, you kids(where applicable)/older people(where applicable)/guys(where applicable)/gals(where applicable)/aliens(where applicable)/veterans(where applicable)/newbies(where applicable) would make my life a hell of a lot harder if you followed your own set of rules.

Spoiler:

1) All forumwide PC rules apply here.

2) No SPAM, no exceptions. This also includes Spam, the canned meat.

3) No asking for reviewers for your fic. Only post links to reviews and not the whole, actual review.

4) Use this format:

Fic Title:
Link: [post=#######]Type of Review and for which chapter(where applicable)(Optional)[/post]
Date: dd/mm/yy

5) Remember that review calculations are made from the first review recorded in this thread. All calculations are done per calendar month (pcm). This means:

If member xposts review A in the thread, dated 08/07, did another review B and recorded it in the thread, dated (the current date: eg: 08/10); then, his RpM number would be (Number of reviews)/[Difference between Aug 2010 and Aug 2007] which would become: 2rev/36mths = 1/12 = 0.08 RpM. And that wouldn't really look good now would it?

If member y posts review A, B, C, D, E, and F in the thread dated 05/10, then his RpM value would be 6.00 RpM. If y then proceeded to post another seven reviews the following month (06/10), it would be added to his previous month's reviews and the number of months added by how many months have passed since the date of the first review. This would then make y's {[6(Reviews A-F)+7(Reviews in 06/10 )]/2[Calendar months since first review]} RpM at 13/2 = 6.5 RpM.

6)Do not edit review links, except for the occasional typo, after 24 hours. Chances are, I've already checked and I won't recheck. If for whatever reason I reject your entry, repost do not edit your previous post.


*Note that the code for linking to a specific post and still being able to view the whole thread is [post=(click on that number on your post that denotes what post it is and take the longer number. eg: [CODE]https://www.pokecommunity.com/showpost.php?p=5723370&postcount=2[/CODE])]Stuff[/post]

And why the hell do we do this?
This question pops up sooner or later. Why do we review fics? The answer is simple; it's because we want to help other writer's improve on their skills. Sometimes however, this isn't enough so PC's FF Community decided to spice things up a bit and came up with a few, shall we say, incentives for reviewers to actually want something to commend their reviewing efforts. And what are these incentives of which I speak you ask? Well, since we're not made up of money and we can't make everyone and their grandmother a mod, then we all had the brilliant idea of handing out these sexy emblems, courtesy of Master Artist txteclipse and Mistress of Graphics Giratina, as a reward for consistent and or quality reviews.

Ooh, emblems... Gimme nao!
There are currently five emblems linked to the F&W Section of PC. Four of these, are linked to reviews. Of these four, three are requestable.
These emblems, in order of ascending worth and how to get them are:

Bronze Reviewer's Emblem
Awarded for maintaining a 10 RpM quota for a period of 3(Three) Months. This means at least 30 reviews in three months.


Silver Reviewer's Emblem
Awarded for maintaining a 10 RpM quota for a period of 5(Five) Months. This means at least 50 reviews in five months.


Gold Reviewer's Emblem
Awarded for maintaining a 10 RpM quota for a period of 7(Seven) Months. This means at least 70 reviews in seven months.


The Reviewer's Emblem (Non-requestable.)
Awarded for consistent, excellent quality reviews, that surpasses the quality of teaching here at the Pokecommunity.

NB: A member does not necessarily need a rank emblem in order to attain 'The Reviewer's Emblem' since it's measured on quality of reviews. However, all three rank emblems are dependent on the rank below them. For example, if you qualify for the Gold Emblem, you also qualify for the silver and Bronze emblem since you have passed that quota. All reviews that qualify towards rank emblems need to follow a loose criteria.


Quality of Reviews
Since we don't want every Tom, (Name is probably censored, but if you're familiar with the saying then you should know.), and Harry to have an emblem, lest it be considered cheap, reviews need to contain these few criteria in order for me to accept them into calculations.

Reviews must point out specific elements in a fic and be able to correct it if wrong.

Reviews must point out specific elements in a fic and be able to give suggestions on how to improve if there's not much that's wrong.

Reviews must be helpful and not too snarky*.

*Snarky is defined as being excessively rude to the point of causing discomfort.

For Example:
Member SakuraXSyaoran posts a review with the following:

It was a nice fic. I really enjoyed your description and characterization.

This is not a review merely an acceptable comment because said member pointed out something vaguely specific, but did not give any notes on how to improve.


Member RegisFan24 posts a review with the following:

OMG Lolz, it's so freaking awesome. Write moar plz!!!

Unacceptable review and unacceptable comment on fic. Member did not point out anything specific.


Member VetFiccer posts a review with the following:

I really liked your fic and how you portrayed the character interactions. While it may be alright, I feel that you can improve on it slightly by changing Azora's personality to be cheery because he seems a bit too stoic for his age. Furthermore, your description is superb albeit slightly redundant as with this part,

He ate the molten rock pie. He suffered from third-degree internal burns.

Also, fix this part because you're missing a few quote marks and dialogue tags.
" Eat lead!" he screamed.

Acceptable review. Note that the member has pointed out a specific element and suggested an improvement.


Member n00bExtraordinaire posts a review with the following:

OMG, you're writing may be good, but your description and plot sucks. Like in paragraph 2 you could at least add some conflict you dolt. Come on, this is the worst piece of clichéd trash I've seen. In chapter 4, you have him running up and down a cliff, but you could also have him fight the creatures. I mean, they're right there for god's sake.

Unacceptable review. Note that while said member did point out specific elements and how to improve them, he was excessively snark..


Example of a post in this thread

Fic: Emerald's Chaotic Enigma
Link: [post=######]Character review for chapter 3[/post]
Date: 02/12/09

Remember that you may post old reviews, but bear in mind that it'll affect your RpM.

With that in mind…
Go forth and review!

Special Thanks
JX "Jax" Valentine, for spearheading the project.
Astinus, the Mod of F&W for allowing the thread's creation.
txteclipse, the artist for the ___ emblem(s).
Giratina, the artist for the ___ emblem(s).
Various members who contributed to Project Max Revive.

Spoiler:

Wall of Reviewers

​

All figures subject to scrutiny. VM me for suggestions, corrections, or if you think I miscalculated your RpM. RpM figures are to 3 significant figures including zero.

Gold Emblem Worthy
{Member and Link to member} - ­­___RpM (x Total Reviews. y Calendar months since first recorded review.)

Silver Emblem Worthy
{Member and Link to member} - ­­___RpM (x Total Reviews. y Calendar months since first recorded review.)

Bronze Emblem Worthy
{Member and Link to member} - ­­___RpM (x Total Reviews. y Calendar months since first recorded review.)

Notable Mentions
{Member and Link to member} - ­­___RpM (x Total Reviews. y Calendar months since first recorded review.)

 

[Bay]

Urgh, need some catching up to do. Dang school. >.>;

Hm, since no one really commented on bobandbill's plot bunny draft, I'm going to real quick. Besides the typos Giratina mentioned, everything else is looking good. However, the "How to come up with the Plot" and the "Plotting itself" are kinda saying the same thing. Maybe merge them together or something?

As for the reviewers emblem/minimum reviews thing, bobandbill, Silawen, and An-chan already mentioned the flaws of it, mostly on the veterans-newbie gap. So yeah, they said it much better than I could.

Mizan, while I agree there should be an incentive to get the people reviewing too, not really sure if this system will work. Sorry to mention this again, but not sure if you'll have the time to track the reviews. Second, Astinus will have to give out the emblems if the people request them, which I don't think she'll have time to do. Third, we don't just want the new people to just review. I get that you want more reviews there and hence why you have this more lax criteria on reviews here. Eventually we want them to improve their reviewing and I'm afraid with this system they will care more about the emblems instead of trying to make their reviews better than the last one.

There's also one thing I want to add while reading your draft:

Basically, a reviewer is one who comments on fics(Fiction/Fanfiction) and leaves a constructive comment that is aimed towards helping the writer improve upon his writing skills and a reader is one who leaves a constructive comment detailing what he liked about the fic and not necessarily stating how it could be improved upon. To recap; a reader comments(constructively) on what he liked, and a reviewer tells the writer what he likes(not essential) and helps the writer improve by picking out certain mistakes and giving comments on how they could be fixed.

Hm, maybe other people might disagree with me on this, but I feel a reviewer can also be someone that just comments what he likes and doesn't like in a constructive manner. I mean, this can let the writer know what he's doing good and what he's doing bad, so that helps him in a different way.

 

[Miz en Scène]

Mizan, while I agree there should be an incentive to get the people reviewing too, not really sure if this system will work. Sorry to mention this again, but not sure if you'll have the time to track the reviews. Second, Astinus will have to give out the emblems if the people request them, which I don't think she'll have time to do. Third, we don't just want the new people to just review. I get that you want more reviews there and hence why you have this more lax criteria on reviews here. Eventually we want them to improve their reviewing and I'm afraid with this system they will care more about the emblems instead of trying to make their reviews better than the last one.

Just saying that I'm not the only one who's finding the lack of reviews a problem by the way. Saying this just because if it seems like I'm having a personal campaign to get people to do more reviews and everyone else doesn't care about it. If memory serves, Jax mentioned the lack of review thing so yeah... Anyway, while I agree with what you're saying about quality over quantity, I feel that we really need to come up with a compromise here. On one hand, we have plenty of reviews, but most of them short and lack quality; on the other hand, we have long, quality reviews, but they're infrequent and only certain writers can get their fic reviewed. On the subject of the lax review criteria, that's there for the sole reason that anything higher than that would be way too stringent and if I were to make it vague, people might complain. For example, saying "must point out 5 things and make corrections" really would be unfair and would debilitate the flexibility in most reviews. Vague review criteria will arouse questions like, "why doesn't mine count?" and decision making which I, as an ordinary member, don't have the authority to do...

but not sure if you'll have the time to track the reviews.

It's updated monthly and reviews are posted in the thread so I know what to check. People who don't post reviews in the thread, I won't check so I'm not wasting my time. I'm basically following claim thread format so I'm not sure what the problem is here.

Second, Astinus will have to give out the emblems if the people request them, which I don't think she'll have time to do.

/Agreement because time is also a restraint to me...

What does Astinus feel about this matter though?

Hm, maybe other people might disagree with me on this, but I feel a reviewer can also be someone that just comments what he likes and doesn't like in a constructive manner. I mean, this can let the writer know what he's doing good and what he's doing bad, so that helps him in a different way.

I totally get where you're coming from and I'm tempted to change it, but then we could say that every proper post in the F&W qualifies as a review because all posts are meant to be constructive anyway and everyone who comments is basically pointing out something specific (not overly specific) that he likes.

And uh, sorry if you feel like I'm antagonizing your views on the subject, but I'm not because you're the only one to comment on the draft as of yet. Thanks.

 

[JX Valentine]

On one hand, we have plenty of reviews, but most of them short and lack quality; on the other hand, we have long, quality reviews, but they're infrequent and only certain writers can get their fic reviewed. On the subject of the lax review criteria, that's there for the sole reason that anything higher than that would be way too stringent and if I were to make it vague, people might complain. For example, saying "must point out 5 things and make corrections" really would be unfair and would debilitate the flexibility in most reviews. Vague review criteria will arouse questions like, "why doesn't mine count?" and decision making which I, as an ordinary member, don't have the authority to do...

This is why I told you to wait until I'm ready to get to the reviewing guide. The reason why is because a lot of these criteria can be covered in revisions I know need to be made to Reviewing and You. It's egotistical, yes, but I've looked at my guide long enough to know exactly what's wrong with it. That and there's a lot on the subject a person probably can't cover in the first post of something that's meant to be a reviewing activity and not a reviewing, well, guide.

And even then, we've already begun to discuss (albeit on the rules thread, although there's smatterings of it on both the FFL and this one) what is and isn't a good review. A review is just something that points out something specific about the story and states what the reader thought about it honestly. It doesn't have to be pages upon pages long, but I agree that it's not really a one-liner either. It can be, at the very bare minimum, just a paragraph that states, "Oh, I really liked what you did in this chapter. These parts struck me in particular." No corrections necessary. No pages. No deconstruction of a fic. Just pure, simple honesty in a nutshell.

Of course, the new guide would also go into more detail once that bottom line is established, but.

As for the lack of reviewers, yes, I said that there was a distinct lack of them. As in, the FFL had this fun little tendency of not doing anything but sit around and go on and on about Sentrets with flamethrowers or something. However, this isn't like the people-don't-read-stickies problem where there's one pretty simple solution (when you get right down to it, at least). There's probably a completely different way of going about doing it, but we'll need to take a good look at every possible system. A few people have already said that emblems and a NaReWriMo will both have very serious problems. In that case, let's put aside those ideas for now and try to come up with a different solution.

So, let's start by approaching the problem in a different direction. Why don't you (in general) review? Is it because of a lack of time? If we establish the idea that a review only has to be a paragraph or a handful of things you can spot right off the bat, would that make you review more? If not, what would?

In other words, I'll have to thank you for your work, Mizan, but let's pull back for now and work on the foundation again before we do anything else.

 

[Miz en Scène]

This is why I told you to wait until I'm ready to get to the reviewing guide.

I assumed you meant the actual thread, not a draft. I guess I was wrong so my apologies.

 

[bobandbill]

*bump*

Well anyone else still alive? =P Let's keep this moving, shall we?

Maybe we should focus on things one at a time... say addressing that problem about making this section friendly-looking to newbies rather than seeming elitist and whatnot (and along with that more discussion on the FFL -what WOULD it be aimed to be like? What would people want in an FFL that they would enjoy and also newcomers would feel at home in as well?) Maybe we should rebegin the ffl by first defining what is its aim/purpose and what would be allowed/encouraged within it.

And anything else to say about the beta thread posted above in a spoiler on this page no matter how insignificant? I've half a mind to post it so might as well do all of the necessary edits in one go rather than chopping and changing. Such as on Bay's mention on this:

However, the "How to come up with the Plot" and the "Plotting itself" are kinda saying the same thing. Maybe merge them together or something?

 

[Dagzar]

Maybe we should focus on things one at a time... say addressing that problem about making this section friendly-looking to newbies rather than seeming elitist and whatnot

To make this section friendly, we simply have to be friendly. We should be polite and not lash out when someone comes along with a different opinion. As long as we do that, I don't think we'll have further trouble.

(and along with that more discussion on the FFL -what WOULD it be aimed to be like? What would people want in an FFL that they would enjoy and also newcomers would feel at home in as well?) Maybe we should rebegin the ffl by first defining what is its aim/purpose and what would be allowed/encouraged within it.

I think the FFL should be designed to discuss writing and only writing. People can use the thread to ask questions, whether regular or bold. Obviously, we should close the current FFL to make way for the new one, and really, I think that specific thread is one of the reasons newbies don't post in there. It's, like, one thousand pages of discussion and anyone would be intimidated just looking at it.

About the beta thread thing, here's my thoughts on it.

The more detailed your summery of your idea, the better.

The first 'your' in that sentence seems off. It's look better if you used 'the', instead. Also, Dictionary.com assures me that it's 'summary', not 'summery'.

First thing you should probably consider is to not rush your plotting – it applies to writing, and shouldn't apply to your plotting.

I think you mean 'should'.

… Yeah, the only problems I could find were spelling mistakes that are probably already outdated. Though, I don't think 'How to come up with Plot' and 'Plotting Itself' are redundant since I see the former as an introduction, the main idea, while the latter is going over the smaller details.

 

[An-chan]

I think the FFL should be designed to discuss writing and only writing. People can use the thread to ask questions, whether regular or bold. Obviously, we should close the current FFL to make way for the new one, and really, I think that specific thread is one of the reasons newbies don't post in there. It's, like, one thousand pages of discussion and anyone would be intimidated just looking at it.

I don't think the length of the thread is the issue. I mean, back when I came here as a newbie, it wasn't that much shorter, and that holds true for many of you. Why did you originally post in it and become a part of the community? It never was entirely about writing, and it hasn't been a short thread since forever. While agree that we might want to restart the whole thread, that's not what will fix the issue of elitist FFL.

For one, I think bold topics shouldn't be allowed, at least not in the format they have been seen so far. They give way too much room for ignoring newbies, enforce concentrating on just the question and your own answer, and don't really ever bring anything new to the table. They used to work, back a long time ago, when they weren't the only means of conversation in the FFL. They were there just to make the question clearer. Lately, it's been just bold topic after bold topic after bold topic with a side dish of general randomness. For me, it never was the inside-y randomness that kept me away from the thread that was my favourite place in the internet not too long ago, it was the influx of bold topics.

That's not a discussion, guys. It doesn't create a warm atmosphere. It creates an atmosphere in which you're not required to read every post, leading to everyone reading only the posts of their pals or people they know. It creates an atmosphere in which igniting a real conversation looks troublesome and seems like it would break the normal pace. It creates an atmosphere that is just no welcoming at all. That is why I stopped posting in the thread, and I wasn't even a newbie.

It's attitudes that need to change, not rules. I don't really like the idea of outright banning bold topics because they can be used well and be very useful, but when it comes down to it, they are a big part of why the problem was born in the first place. Thus, it's not really the rules that created the issue; it's the attitudes. Attitudes need to change. A lot of you have already mentioned that's the case, but I've yet to see anyone take any kind of action with regards to this.

We're all equal, dammit. No matter how long you've been writing or how good your grammar is, we're all equal. Someone might be a better writer than someone else, but that's not what's important. Everyone's opinions should have the same value. That just hasn't hold true here for a long time, even if it should. And that is also why I'm against emblems.

… Yeah, the only problems I could find were spelling mistakes that are probably already outdated. Though, I don't think 'How to come up with Plot' and 'Plotting Itself' are redundant since I see the former as an introduction, the main idea, while the latter is going over the smaller details.

They're also different, in my opinion: coming up with the basics of the plot is a different process than sewing the plot into something that doesn't have holes in every turn. One can happen in nanoseconds, while the other always invariably needs a lot of time to be successful. Also, I believe most people who wander into writing already have a plot of some sort thought up, but they might not have sewn all the holes out of it just yet. So, yes, I think the two should be kept separate. You could explain this issue in the thread, also, to make it clearer why there are two almost redundant-sounding sections in it.

 

[Astinus]

So what? We either outright ban bold topics, or we keep bold topics. If we ban them, then more in-depth discussions can take place that require reading of every post. If we keep them, then new members don't feel out of place or feel that there's a gap (because what if the discussion is on something that not all beginning writers know, and so not all people can join in).

One reason why I liked the bold topics is because they gave a way for people to join in. They [tried to] encompass everyone, from the experienced "veterans" to the brand-spanking-new members who don't know anyone.

It's just that bold topics were used as a way for people to sneak in with on-topic posts mixed in with silly random posts. And since there were no rules for the FFL, and since the moderator had no idea what was going on because no one believes in communication, things spiraled out of control.

Honestly, I'm all for restarting the FFL. With a new thread that has clear rules and a defined purpose, I can keep control of this. (I'm saying "I" because I'm planning on staying here as moderator until the day I die.) The current FFL started off as a place for announcements about new stories/chapters and then evolved to what we have now: a floundering mutation of nature. If it starts off clean, then it can remain clean.

We need an attitude adjustment. That I agree with. But we can't just say "Change your attitudes!" without some guidance as to how. And keeping someway for the new members to join in helps, whether that's with bold topics or something else entirely.

 

[JX Valentine]

You know, it seems to me that if we're going to argue back and forth about the very, very basics (what purpose bold topics serve, what the definition of open and friendly is, that sort of thing), maybe we're not the best people to ask. I mean, we're already biased enough as it is; vets will probably look at the system and either say it works because it always has or it doesn't because of nostalgia goggles. So, maybe it might be better to ask the kids posting in the main forum why they don't come to the FFL (other than the construction). Maybe even show them a page from a couple months ago and ask them if they would join in on something like that and why or why not.

Because, really, the entire question hinges on the opinion of those kids, not us. We could try changing to make things better, but without knowing what one half -- the half we're trying to attract in the first place -- is thinking, we'll probably argue ourselves into a circle again like we're doing right now.

So, yeah. How about some of us (and not just one person, either, 'cause we're trying to be friendly and open and all) try to drop those people a few VMs to get their opinions?

 

[Astinus]

I'll volunteer myself for that job. And do some other things that will hopefully attract those in the main forum over to these threads.

 

[Giratina ♀]

Val brings up a good point. We can speculate all we want on what the New Kids will think of this or that, but the fact of the matter is we're all used to it by now and trying to get into the heads of the New Kids could come out with some extremely varied results. I don't know if I want to do that job myself (it seems sort of like VM/PM advertising, which is one of my pet peeves), though... sorry. XD

 

[Astinus]

I put up an announcement to try and get people to notice this thread. Even those members who post only in Poetry. But the announcement failed, so if we actually want things to happen, it's going to have to get drastic.

Which means that we might have to lean towards the annoyance side and drag those precious new members screaming and kicking into this thread to get their opinions on things. VMs and PMs might have to be sent out.

I also think that another thing that might help is all you wonderful veterans not being around. Some of you might actually be busy, and that's fully understandable, but I'm not following the reasoning behind the fact that the FFL got many posts when things were fun, but helping out this section to not die is something people shy away from.

So, for right now, the focus is going to be getting the opinions on those new people who haven't seen this thread for whatever reason. We need to show them that their opinion matters in this, so that they will post. How do we get them to come here?

Who's with me in bothering the people? I volunteer because apparently my life is over.

 

[bobandbill]

I'm in - bothering people is fun. =P Leastways I'll bug when I have time for it.

I also propose a sig campaign of sorts - sure announcement didn't work out but if a number of us promote the heck out of this thread then hopefully at least one person will wander in here... =/ Surely an old man dancing is attention grabbing for someone!

(Also cheers for more feedback on the thread - I'll get back to that sometime).

 

[Kipher]

I put up an announcement to try and get people to notice this thread. Even those members who post only in Poetry. But the announcement failed, so if we actually want things to happen, it's going to have to get drastic.

Reading does'nt appeal to some pepole, and those who write stories enjoy what they do. Maybe they are reading the stories, but they're just to shy to admit it. And those who possibly have a enjoyable story might keep to themesleves. This is a problem in my class, the shy kid in the corner in the room that no one likes becuase of whatever has a story that would turn even my head.



I'll get a story out there, but will it be read?

 

[Delusions of Originality]

Hm, bugging the new kids. I'll just save you the trouble, shall I? :P

Anyway. I haven't been around all that long, so I don't know much about... whatever you guys seem to think is going on, much like Breezy said in an earlier post. From what I gather after reading this thread and skimming the FFL and wherever else you've been discussing this, these are the core issues you are currently trying to address, details of any shiny new revamps aside:

1. The number and quality of fanfic reviews. Many stories are not getting reviews, and those reviews that are given are generally not of a very high quality. You're looking for an incentive that will encourage more frequent reviews, and possibly a way to improve the quality and usefulness of these reviews.

2. The running of the Fanfiction Lounge. First, it is a bazillion pages long and so supposedly looks scary to us poor little newblings. Second, apparently you are all prone to going horribly off-topic, ostensibly defeating the purpose of a "Fanfiction" Lounge intended for discussing, well, fanfiction. Third, um... something about "bold topics", I think? I can make an educated guess as to what you guys mean when you say that, though I'm not entirely sure what they are or what problems you're having with them.

3. New people don't seem to read the rules/stickies, resulting in rampant mistakes. Self-explanatory.

And all of this talk about emblems, story-format rules threads and other stuff is essentially what you're tossing around as the solutions to these three basic problems. Am I right? Did I miss something?

I guess what I'm saying is that, as a new person, I'm not entirely sure what sort of input I can give without a more thorough understanding of the alleged situation; I'd just like to make it absolutely clear before I say something stupid that you guys have already thought of or whatever. I'm sure you're all tired of repeating yourselves, but... is that the gist of what's going on?