Chit-Chat: ROM Hacking Daily Chit Chat

[matildamantis]

Do we have a master thread with tile packs? The default FR tiles aren't doing it for me. :11:

 

[professornerd]

haha that's good

Anyway, what do you guys think about the dichotomy of "natural" mapping and Game Freak-styled (i mean good lmoa) mapping? In my opinion "natural" maps are just trying to be artistic without considering the principles of level design or navigation, and often results in a mess of trees and bushes and no clear sense of direction.

I would disagree. If done right natural maps provide navigation without the player realizing it. I personally like this because it will give the game a sence of open wonder and explration. Something that really bothers me about "traditional" maps is you can see where you need to go on first glance. This forces the player to forget about any side items or quest and move on stright to the main objective. I may only feel this way because I enjoy the small features and sidequests of games. I like seeing that the developers put time and thought in pay the main game objection. Regardless, any style of mapping can be successfull if thought on guiding, visual elements, layout, and design are considered.

 

[Blah]

I would disagree. If done right natural maps provide navigation without the player realizing it. I personally like this because it will give the game a sence of open wonder and explration. Something that really bothers me about "traditional" maps is you can see where you need to go on first glance. This forces the player to forget about any side items or quest and move on stright to the main objective. I may only feel this way because I enjoy the small features and sidequests of games. I like seeing that the developers put time and thought in pay the main game objection. Regardless, any style of mapping can be successfull if thought on guiding, visual elements, layout, and design are considered.

I think you're confusing the mapping style with map structure in general here. Both mapping styles have the potential for good design in terms of little side quests and exploration, however, natural maps tend to be harder to maneuver in with small (less than 3-4 tile) width paths at points. I think that the traditional mapping style also helps with trainer placement because trainers can only detect in straight lines. It's a very opinion based discussion where both sides argue different points, but I think traditional maps have less negative points than natural maps. The mapping style you prefer depends on how you much you value the high points in comparison to the low points.

Anyways, I wanted to address what people's thoughts are on giving credits to content creators vs. discoverers. An example of some content which I think credit is deserved would be something like JPAN's hacked engine. Clearly he has put a lot of hard work into it and has written his own code to enhance the FR ROM. No doubt he deserves credit for his work.

In contrast, there are things like HackMew's running shoes inside buildings. I believe that this shouldn't warrant any credit. If I were to find where running shoes is checked, it would only take me a few minutes at most, and it's not like he wrote any additional code. So why is it that I have to credit him because he found out that there's a "bl" which checks running shoes? It's a similar situation with my TM deletion work, I suppose. We didn't invent the code, we just analyzed it and changed a few bytes. At what point is it agreeable that something needs credit and something doesn't?

What really gets me annoyed is when someone posts something like RAM offsets and wants credits if we ever use said RAM offsets. Example would be the screen resolution RAM offsets. Someone found out you can use writebytetooffset to these X+Y specifiers to change the screen resolution. Honestly, it's not like they invented the offsets, nor do they have a right to stop me from modifying them without your being credited.

Anyways, I think that someone "discovering" offsets which are easily modified shouldn't be expecting to receive credit for their work. The only credit you should get in this case is if the person genuinely found your research helpful and decided to credit you out of thankfulness. There are exceptions, which would be something like someone's research on FireRed's Pokedex, and on top of that they show how it works/how to expand safely. Something this deep, and pretty much essential for many ROM hacks is something that deserves credit.

Don't even get me started on, "Credit me because I ripped/translated/made_simple_script X from Y" because that just makes me sad.

 

[Spherical Ice]

I think that's a key difference between research and development. The former would be finding offsets and whatnot, and so I would say does not really need credit, whereas development, which is the creation of new things, usually using information found through research, is something that is created by the person who posts it and so should be credited.

 

[professornerd]

I think you're confusing the mapping style with map structure in general here. Both mapping styles have the potential for good design in terms of little side quests and explorationn, however, natural maps tend to be harder to maneuver in with small (less than 3-4 tile) width paths at points. I think that the traditional mapping style also helps with trainer placement because trainers can only detect in straight lines. It's a very opinion based discussion where both sides argue different points, but I think traditional maps have less negative points than natural maps. The mapping style you prefer depends on how you much you value the high points in comparison to the low points.

Anyways, I wanted to address what people's thoughts are on giving credits to content creators vs. discoverers. An example of some content which I think credit is deserved would be something like JPAN's hacked engine. Clearly he has put a lot of hard work into it and has written his own code to enhance the FR ROM. No doubt he deserves credit for his work.

In contrast, there are things like HackMew's running shoes inside buildings. I believe that this shouldn't warrant any credit. If I were to find where running shoes is checked, it would only take me a few minutes at most, and it's not like he wrote any additional code. So why is it that I have to credit him because he found out that there's a "bl" which checks running shoes? It's a similar situation with my TM deletion work, I suppose. We didn't invent the code, we just analyzed it and changed a few bytes. At what point is it agreeable that something needs credit and something doesn't?

What really gets me annoyed is when someone posts something like RAM offsets and wants credits if we ever use said RAM offsets. Example would be the screen resolution RAM offsets. Someone found out you can use writebytetooffset to these X+Y specifiers to change the screen resolution. Honestly, it's not like they invented the offsets, nor do they have a right to stop me from modifying them without your being credited.

Anyways, I think that someone "discovering" offsets which are easily modified shouldn't be expecting to receive credit for their work. The only credit you should get in this case is if the person genuinely found your research helpful and decided to credit you out of thankfulness. There are exceptions, which would be something like someone's research on FireRed's Pokedex, and on top of that they show how it works/how to expand safely. Something this deep, and pretty much essential for many ROM hacks is something that deserves credit.

Don't even get me started on, "Credit me because I ripped/translated/made_simple_script X from Y" because that just makes me sad.

FBI you are completely right. I skimmed the past and answered before checking to make sure I was talking about the correct thing. Looking like a noob (which I probably am compared to most of you) is what I get for skimming and doing this from work.

I also agree with you for people looking for credit when they don't necessarily deserve it. So many people are so obsessed worth proving that they did this or that, that they forget what ROM hacking is all about, having fun.

 

[InfiniteZero]

Just a small rant that challenges a concept:

I still don't understand the mentality behind not making things more readily available for people instead of telling them to 'learn how to make this yourself'.

Not all of us are as technologically savvy as some people - though, the ones that are, they help the ROM hacking scene incredibly, and I am truly appreciative of that. While ROM hacking can be highly enjoyable for many different reasons, one of the things that people tend to overlook is that you don't necessarily need to be good at actually adding features to craft an enjoyable game. I dare say some of the Sideshow hacks demonstrate this more than anything.

People who are relatively dense to stuff like ASM, in terms of actually coming up with code, or they might have programmer's block and what have you can still produce quality gold if their mind is in the right place. Secondly, tools help speed up the process of some things. Would I rather sit in a hex editor to edit all the details of a Pokemon or do it in a well made tool that is easier on the eyes and easier to manage? Though I entirely understand that tools might not always be available.

This kind of thinking has been around for years and I've noticed it's finally begun to lessen in this decade, which is great. Sure, you're going to get some average to below average hacks from time to time. Not everyone gets it right the first time, but there are people who can hit the nail on the head without having to know and implent much. Yes, you should probably know the basics of hex editing such as pointers and what have you, and it's actually not that hard to learn - it also makes things like inserting ASM that much easier, and of course, if tools don't exist for what you need to do, documentation and having the offsets at hand is the next best thing - but I believe that accessibility & ease of use should be an important part of ROM hacking as well. Things like XSE also make scripting stuff a lot easier; though I believe a lot of tools we have now can afford to be brushed up a little bit.

'But what if this creates a glass ceiling on the ROM hacking scene?' It won't. There will always be people who will know where and how to go a step further with the know how to pull it off. I feel ROM hacking can appeal to many different types of people and may even help kickstart people when it comes to programming. I know it's been like that for me.

Things like ROM Bases and even FBI's ASM thread was a huge step in the right direction too, I feel.

 

[professornerd]

Although I love all the creative storylines in hacked games, they have all left me a little dissapointed. When I firsheard about hacking my first thought was "so I can make a game I love and include other things I love too!" For example the hack I've been working on encoding elements from zelda , game of thrones , and other things I love. Heck my whole plot is based off the movie Taken. Now I do really enjoy the hacks out there , I'm just surprised I've haven't seen any that try to bring in elements/characters from outside sources.

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

 

[Mana1]

Although I love all the creative storylines in hacked games, they have all left me a little dissapointed. When I firsheard about hacking my first thought was "so I can make a game I love and include other things I love too!" For example the hack I've been working on encoding elements from zelda , game of thrones , and other things I love. Heck my whole plot is based off the movie Taken. Now I do really enjoy the hacks out there , I'm just surprised I've haven't seen any that try to bring in elements/characters from outside sources.

A few hacks have cameos of sorts - normally of anime characters, forgotten pokemon characters and so on.

IMO blatent links to franchises can come off as a bit tacky - but subtle easter eggs to TV programmes and other games can go down well, without breaking immersion into the game.

 

[PokéMew1]

Is it normal that unnamed trainer editor doesn't work for Pokemon Leafgreen/Firered? If so, what other trainer editor is there to use?

Use A-Trainer ;)
Anything with an advance in it always seems to work nice :P

 

[daniilS]

NNNNNNOPE.

If a tool starts with Advance then there's a relatively high chance that it's outdated. If UTE doesn't work for some reason, use the one in G3T: www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=311461

 

[PokéMew1]

NNNNOOPPPEE.

Advance map- Pure awesome.
Advance Trainer- Meh, never failed for me.
Advance Icon, Sprite and Position Editor- All Work Great :)

Advances in general- Ok, some don't work well at all, but 90% do if you ask me.

 

[daniilS]

You just called Amap awesome. I give up. This is hopeless.

 

[Percy]

NNNNOOPPPEE.

Advance map- Pure awesome.
Advance Trainer- Meh, never failed for me.
Advance Icon, Sprite and Position Editor- All Work Great :)

Advances in general- Ok, some don't work well at all, but 90% do if you ask me.

AdvanceMap is useful, I agree with you.
Advance I.S. & P.E. is useful, too, I guess.
But Advance Trainer is a bit, um, outdated? So, I suggest you use G3T's Trainer Editor or UTE.

 

[GoGoJJTech]

NNNNOOPPPEE.

Advance map- Pure awesome.
Advance Trainer- Meh, never failed for me.
Advance Icon, Sprite and Position Editor- All Work Great :)

Advances in general- Ok, some don't work well at all, but 90% do if you ask me.

You-you're joking, correct?

I hope you are, or your choice of tools will speak for you.

 

[PokéMew1]

For the record. I don't use Atrainer. I used to use it when I first started hacking, then a wider range of tools came out. I find myself, for tools, using advance map (honestly its not THAT bad..) and gen 3 suite. Which basically includes everything. And, of course, XSE. The rest I use, I wouldn't consider as 'magic tools'. Fine, I regret suggesting Atrainer..

 

[chrunch]

You just called Amap awesome. I give up. This is hopeless.

Obviously there are improvements that could be made, but advance map is the best map editor out there right now. It doesn't play too well with heavily edited ROMs, but it was never intended to. Unless there are major updates made to MEH, there is no other map editor that comes even close to the functionality of Advancemap. Why do some people insist that it's so terrible?

 

[GoGoJJTech]

Obviously there are improvements that could be made, but advance map is the best map editor out there right now. It doesn't play too well with heavily edited ROMs, but it was never intended to. Unless there are major updates made to MEH, there is no other map editor that comes even close to the functionality of Advancemap. Why do some people insist that it's so terrible?

Just because it is the best out there right now, that doesn't change the fact that amap has been bad and will remain bad. It has many flaws, and yes, it does basic work on maps and stuff and things like that but that is all it does, and it does a poor job at it. Not to mention all of the misinformation it gives the hacker, especially newer ones that believe it.

 

[C me]

Just because it is the best out there right now, that doesn't change the fact that amap has been bad and will remain bad. It has many flaws, and yes, it does basic work on maps and stuff and things like that but that is all it does, and it does a poor job at it. Not to mention all of the misinformation it gives the hacker, especially newer ones that believe it.

Missinformation? Like what? Being new AMap seems fine to me but I'm quite worried now, what's wrong with it?

 

[daniilS]

It labels lots of things wrongly, sometimes even makes editing them impossible (the out of border cut tree to the east of Cerulean City for example, which requires Blue Spider). But most of all, a rotten potato is probably more future-proof than Amap.

 

[GoGoJJTech]

Missinformation? Like what? Being new AMap seems fine to me but I'm quite worried now, what's wrong with it?

It also likes to tell the hacker that tilesets are in a table and are used in numbers, which is just no bueno