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Stealth Rock

KnilShadowLink

#1 Arcanine Fanboy
    • 277
    Posts
    16
    Years
    Alright, If this thread is in the wrong place, could a Moderator move it? Anyways

    OK I've been reading Smogon lately, and I've notice many of few fire type (Which is my favorite type) are put in the UU, or NU Tiers...and they say it's mainly because of the introduction of Stealth Rock. I feel like Stealth Rock has ruined the Fire Type...am I the only one who is upset? (And please, DO NOT turn this into a flame thread, I just wants a nice discussion about it)
     
    Well, stealth rock isn't the only reason a lot of fire Pokemon are in UU or lower. Most of them don't have the stats or move pools to give them enough of a fighting chance. A number of Pokemon in the OU tier are weak to stealth rock (Gyarados, Zapdos and Infernape come to mind right of the top of my head) but they have the stats and a wide enough move pool to warrant them a threat.

    Infernape and Heatran are the only two fire Pokemon currently in the OU tier (smogon listing). Heatran because of is durability and quasi legendary status, not to mention great stats and fairly deep move pool. Infernape is up there because of the his move pool and speed stat. He hits hard and fast, not the most durable Pokemon, but that's not how he's used.

    In closing, you could make a good to great team with any fire type, you just gotta understand, the metagame is currently revolving around predictions and counters. Every Pokemon has a counter, and a lot of Pokemon carry a number of moves that allow it to counter multiple Pokemon, some even have moves that can counter there own counter.

    Though I will say this, I do love fire types (second favorite behind fighting) and I do wish I could use them more effectively in battling, it's just hard sometimes.
     
    Last edited:
    Heatran and Infernape are ou and are fire type. Also for the most part outclass most other fire types too.

    Actually some fire types still wouldnt be good even without SR (Flareon, Entei, Magcargo, Torkoal im looking at you). In fact the majority of fire types in general are still in the same tier as they were in advance (where there was no SR) which says quite alot.

    I mean 2x SR weaks dont matter too much since Gyarados and Salamence are both top 3 used pokemon along with other common SR weak threats such as Zapdos. So SR arguably not the biggest factor in determining their viability.

    Arcanine has a bad movepool, Zard is easilly walled and stopped by like everything and Bellyzard isnt really good with all the priority and scarfers in the current metagame so eh.

    However in contrast, Moltres, despite its 4x weak to SR is actually a suspect in uu to get banned to BL. Moltres is probably one of the best cases where if there no SR Moltres would be high OU, it can seriously hit like a train (even the monster uu special wall Chansey CAN get 2hko'd by a LO Fire Blast with SR up. o_o) and can stall your face off too with that darn sub roost set (which i hate with a passion). I guess things like Typhlosion, Houndoom, Magmortar would see a bit more play though too..
     
    Dark_Azelf said:
    (Flareon, Entei, Magcargo, Torkoal im looking at you)
    Click to expand...
    BUT THEY ARE COOL ><'
    Torkoal for the win!

    Like most people have said, I don't think SR is the only reason for the demotion of most fire types. The 4th generation has brought around a better movepool for a lot of Pokemon. It has allowed some to excel, where others now can't. The above Pokemon that Dark_Azelf mentioned have horrid movepools. They didn't use to be that great, but they were usable.
    Now, if any of them are used, they are, most likely, going to get abused and wiped out.

    Looking at the UU + NU fire type list, the only Pokemon that really suffer from SR are Charizard and Moltres. Yes, maybe those two were killed by SR, however, the other reasons haven't exactly helped.

    Bottom line, I would agree, to a point, that it has killed fire types, but the movepools had the final and critical blow.
     
    I'm pretty sure this is best suited for Strategies and Movesets, but S&M mods feel free to move it wherever.

    -MOVED-
     
    Well there has been some talk on Smogon about trying a metagame devoid of Stealth Rock, and seeing the results. The obvious would be yes, a rise in bug and flying types, as well as the possible ice growth. Articuno is one poke with great stats that I've used before, with access to screens, roost, and heal bell, it can be an awesome dragon counter, and without Stealth Rock could possibly flourish.

    And we cant forget those lesser used Fire and Bug types! Ledian could wiggle its way into the metagame as a AgiliPasser, Yanmega could come in late game and try to sweep, Charizard could find usage, as could Blaziken, maybe even Rapidash.

    A no Stealth Rock metagame could be an incredible experience, and a turning point for the game if initiated.
     
    Stealth Rock is easily the most broken move ever dispensed. It mutilates things that were already underwhelming- most bug, flying, and fire types were previously of little use. The tiers need to be as balanced as possible, or else, they're completely pointless.

    The main targets of SR are things like Moltres and Articuno--using these as examples, two Pokemon that have changed little over the generations. Stealth Rock comes along, pushing them into the lower tiers. In past generations, they've always been so incredibly borderline. Roost really gave them an opportunity to shine, but Stealth Rock made them almost useless in OU. I would love to see how they perform in OU without Stealth Rock.

    Now, look at the number of Ice types which have never been UU/NU before, but are now being used so little as to be classified as "NU": Articuno, Regice, Jynx, Lapras, Cloyster. And, actually, 4/5 of these have been OU during at least one generation. Now that Stealth Rock has come along, these five incredibly useful Pokemon have been used fewer times in UU than a good number of Pokemon who wouldn't have come close without SR.

    I also don't get why anyone would think that the Bug/Flying crew would need another problem...
     
    It makes a huge difference, but that's partially to do with the faster pace of the game at this point in time. In early DP, everyone was obsessed with having a Spinner, so they didn't have to worry too much about SR. Now, unless you're running a stall team, it's down permanently, so it's almost omnipresent in the game. I would love to see a trial of the game without SR.

    Byt the way guys, you're getting a ton of your SR weaks wrong. Heatrana and Infernape ar not SR weak. Oh and Ledian and Vespiquen aren't doing much good with OR without SR.
     
    Yeah, SR ruined things like Regice and Moltres/Fire-types, but were they even that good anyway? Regice gets absolutely demolished by Scizor/Metagross/everything and is pretty inferior to Blissey in about every way possibke...it's not Advance anymore. As for Fire-types, most of them wouldn't be very capable OU Pokemon even without SR. Yeah, Magmortar is really powerful, but it's also slow and has trouble with any sort of fast team. Stall teams wear it down quickly as well since it's perfectly possible to wall it. Moltres would be better, but it's still offensively challenged in a world with Waters and Blissey everywhere (an fast things - 90 base Speed is often too low; ask Porygon-Z).

    Besides, SR keeps things like Gyarados and Salamence in check to a certain extent, and it destroys Sashers (though those are easy to stop even without SR lol). I don't see it's "broken" like you claim, Cest. Yeah, it adds insult to injury in regards to Pokemon that are bad anyway. Yeah, Salamence makes Beautifly look bad too. That doesn't mean it's broken. Your argument is basically based on "well it makes certain things way worse"...yeah, that's what Blissey does to basically every special attacker in the game. Even without SR, Ice, Bug, and Fire types are horrible defensively to say the very least, and offensively, not many of these lower tier Pokemon can even use them well.

    I'd sure like to see how things would change without SR, but it's by no means broken. As far as a balanced metagame is concerned, it's quite useful for defense, offense, and balance alike. Yeah, it makes certain things even worse, but they have almost no impact anyway.
     
    If you're really worried about Stealth Rock, convince your enemy to use Defog on you.

    I always thought Fire-type was a bit silly anyway, with its weakness to Water-, Ground-, and Rock-type attacks. Surfquake Edge, I'm talking about you. Also, Fire-types have some of the most boring movesets ever, except for Heatran, Infernape, Ninetales maybe, Charizard, and Houndoom.
     
    SR hurt alot of Pokemon but I don't think its broken, its become a part of the metagame.

    It also helps with dealing with some Pokemon which were really hard to take down in R/S/E. It really has stuffed some Pokemon up(Articuno is an example) its a really great move.
     
    Because one of my favourite type is Fire, i have to defend the power of Fire-types =D
    Well... not only Stealth Rock ruins the use of Fire-types. The 2th factor is, that they mostly have possible a very powerful movepool, but not an movepool, who gives good type coverage - most popular counters: Rock- and Water-types. But luckily most Fire-types are able to learn the most powerful Grass-move Solar Beam. In mention that Fire-types can only with Sunny Day (support) show their true power - but IN Sunny Day they are pure beasts. All in all it means that Fire-types are pretty hard to play when you want excellent type-coverage with them. "But through the hardest ways will be reached the best results", as is generally known ;)
     
    Anti said:
    Yeah, SR ruined things like Regice and Moltres/Fire-types, but were they even that good anyway? Regice gets absolutely demolished by Scizor/Metagross/everything and is pretty inferior to Blissey in about every way possibke...it's not Advance anymore. As for Fire-types, most of them wouldn't be very capable OU Pokemon even without SR. Yeah, Magmortar is really powerful, but it's also slow and has trouble with any sort of fast team. Stall teams wear it down quickly as well since it's perfectly possible to wall it. Moltres would be better, but it's still offensively challenged in a world with Waters and Blissey everywhere (an fast things - 90 base Speed is often too low; ask Porygon-Z).

    Besides, SR keeps things like Gyarados and Salamence in check to a certain extent, and it destroys Sashers (though those are easy to stop even without SR lol). I don't see it's "broken" like you claim, Cest. Yeah, it adds insult to injury in regards to Pokemon that are bad anyway. Yeah, Salamence makes Beautifly look bad too. That doesn't mean it's broken. Your argument is basically based on "well it makes certain things way worse"...yeah, that's what Blissey does to basically every special attacker in the game. Even without SR, Ice, Bug, and Fire types are horrible defensively to say the very least, and offensively, not many of these lower tier Pokemon can even use them well.

    I'd sure like to see how things would change without SR, but it's by no means broken. As far as a balanced metagame is concerned, it's quite useful for defense, offense, and balance alike. Yeah, it makes certain things even worse, but they have almost no impact anyway.
    Click to expand...
    I don't see how Regice is inferior to Blissey... 100 base Special Attack and Defense go a long way. But that's not the point. The point is that, if these Pokemon are so useless as you claim, then why on Earth would you add more ways to make them useless? If anything, you'd want to add moves that gave them an advantage that others don't have.

    Things like Gyarados, Salamence, and Zapdos are usually completely offensive sets and don't mind taking 25%. Yeah, it can really mess them up on ocassion, but there are still things that ruin them without SR. Articuno and Moltres, on the other hand, whose SubRoost sets depend entirely upon setting up a sub while the opponent switches, are forced to use Roost to recover the 50% they lost. Now they'll have to switch out, making them completely useless and a waste of turn.

    I really don't understand your logic with this. "If it's not great now, let's make it suck body parts." If you're going for balance, SR doesn't get you anywhere. Rapid Spinners, for example, were used before this generation but not in such necessity as they are now. If your team doesn't have a spinner, it also can't have a whole lot of other things that are weak to SR. It just doesn't make any sense for one move to require that the opposing team carries another move to keep from completely ruining the other team's strategy.
     
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