Sun & Moon and Kanto marketing

Hikamaru

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    Some of us were discussing it earlier, but it caused a thread to go off-topic so that's why this thread is here.

    Now, as we know, Sun & Moon has been promoting a lot of stuff in its trailers relating to Generation 1 and the people who grew up during the days of the original 151 Pokemon and the PokeMania fad. And with the release of Pokemon GO (which currently has a 1st Gen only roster) people who have fallen out of favour with the franchise have been coming back due to the Pokemon they recognize from their childhood, and Game Freak has been taking notable measures to make the most recognized Pokemon in existence and turn it into a way to have Sun & Moon pull back people to the main series who haven't played in years.

    Notable evidence to this includes:

    • Alola Forms being exclusive to 1st Gen Pokemon
    • The protagonist is originally from Kanto
    • Most Z-Moves exclusive to certain Pokemon are related to 1st Gen Pokemon
    • Red and Blue appearing, and are older compared to their last appearances
    • 1st Gen having the most representation of older-gen Pokemon in the Alola regional Dex (as evidenced in the demo datamine)
    • Samson Oak, the cousin of Kanto's Professor Samuel Oak
    Recently, both Junichi Masuda and Shigeru Ohmori were interviewed about Sun & Moon and Alola Forms was one of the questions brought up. They said the reason behind them being 1st Gen only is to bring a fresh feel to some of the most well-recognized Pokemon in the franchise (most people who played during 1st Gen retired from Pokemon years later) but also use new concepts that work effectively with the Pokemon. Focusing mainly on 1st Gen Pokemon is part of Game Freak's way to bring back old fans to the main series, especially with the popularity of Pokemon GO.


    That said, what do you think of the Kanto marketing in Sun & Moon? Do you see it benefitting the game sales? And add any other input if you want, as long as it follows forumwide rules and Sun & Moon rules.
     
    I honestly don't care if it's boosting sales, it's doing a large disservice to the games and is failing to recognize the series holistically.
     
    a comparison (Anabel is based on riddler; not certain yet)

    Spoiler:
     
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    I always thought it was more to do with the fact that it's Pok?mon's 20th Anniversary, so it's bringing back more Kanto Pok?mon and characters for nostalgia to those who have been playing since Red and Blue, but to also somewhat relive the experience of Kanto to new players and those who played Pok?mon after Red and Blue.

    Of course, this will encourage previous Pok?mon players who started with Red and Blue to come back to the franchise, but I think it's more just a way of celebrating the franchise as a whole by bringing back what started Pok?mon.
     
    I didn't start the series with gen 1, and after going back to play it years after I had continued with the series, I can definitely say it's my least favorite gen in terms of... pretty much everything, really. So a lot of the pandering is really lost on me because the vast majority of it doesn't appeal to me. And when some of the most major features of the game focus around this, it doesn't help me get too hyped.

    Alola forms were a pretty neat idea at their core but there's a lot of lost potential when they purposefully ignore other-gen Pok?mon in favor of only gen 1 Pok?mon; and on top of that, most of them are just recolors with very very very miniscule design changes, so it almost feels like a lot of them truly weren't warranted. The few that are good are really good but it's clear they didn't all get the same treatment which really makes me think, "I would have much rather had a Popsicle Vanillite as opposed to Rainbow Muk," but we didn't get that because they'd rather force a design that can't really be changed a whole lot into a recolor just because it's a gen 1 Pok?mon, than actually redesign another gen Pok?mon.

    As for the number of Kanto Pok?mon available in Alola, I also really, really don't get that. Because, didn't they make a huge deal about being able to transfer Pok?mon from the gen 1 Virtual Console games? When they finally announced SM, the only information they gave aside from the games' names was this connectivity feature. Wasn't that to encourage people to buy the VC releases and easily transfer their Pok?mon from there? So was there really that much need to include such an overwhelming number of gen 1 Pok?mon in SM itself?

    Truth be told, I wouldn't mind this as much if it wasn't for the fact that just 3 years ago, XY had a lot of gen 1 pandering, too, with most Megas coming from gen 1 and the overshadowing of the Kalos starters by the Kanto starter megas, opting to use the legendary birds instead of making a new legendary minor trio, and even outside of the games with the Origins animation series. That's why I thought SM would be more "equal-opportunity" for each of the preceding gens--because we already got a lot of gen 1 pandering in XY.

    And this is a lot more personal but back in college it was not uncommon for people to say to my face that there was no way I could be a "real Pok?mon fan" since I didn't start with gen 1, or if they asked which gen was my favorite they would cut me off before I could fully respond and just say "Those games sucked, the gen 1 games were the only good ones." This isn't an uncommon mindset in general, and it becomes way more apparent online. And looking at that comparison image, seeing it laid out just how little the other gens are getting when compared to gen 1, it almost feels like Game Freak is... proving them right, in a way? Like, the other gens "aren't good enough" or "aren't important enough" for them to get anything special in SM. Like, yay, they reused one of gen 5's generic NPC designs. Whoop-dee-doo, happy 20th anniversary...

    But hey, maybe Game Freak will prove me wrong. Maybe in 3 years we'll get a set of games that celebrate gen 2's 20th anniversary, with "Region X forms" of only Johto Pok?mon, and "Q-Moves" for only Johto Pok?mon, and Johto starter Mega Evolutions. But unless someone's got a Xatu we can borrow, we won't know the fate of other gens' "celebration games" for some time...

    It's stuff like this that makes me want gen 4 and gen 5 remakes more and more each day.
     
    I definitely understand Rivvon's post above. I didn't play any 1st Gen games (or in fact, any games where Kanto was the primary region) so I didn't feel the same way about the generation as a whole compared to most other people, and explains why 1st Gen Pokemon don't seem to get a lot of nods from me when it comes to stuff like favorite Pokemon polls and stuff like that. I also don't feel as hyped when it is a notable focus of new features, as we've seen with Alola Forms.

    Also, like she said I felt that limiting the distribution of Alola Forms meant so many missed opportunities to other Pokemon that could have loved having an interesting redesign or concept used, and the sad part is we know that they'll only live on in works of fanart. And considering what she mentioned about Sun & Moon's Bank compatibility with the VC 1st Gen games, having all those Kanto Pokemon in the Alola Dex kinda renders that point moot.

    I remember how many Kanto shoutouts happened in X/Y as well, and while I loved the Kalos starters as far as designs and concepts go, I felt that if you're a Kalos starter and your name wasn't Greninja, you were pretty much overshadowed by that very Kanto starter that your trainer obtained in Lumiose City, because of the tempting new feature that was Mega Evolution. Kanto and Hoenn currently have the most representation of Megas as well, with the latter only being boosted thanks to OR/AS.

    It was due to that and the huge numbers of older Pokemon in the Kalos Dex, coupled with the low number of new Pokemon that the new Pokemon felt pushed aside by these older Pokemon, and that now seems to be the case with S/M - low number of new Pokemon, loads of older Pokemon in the regional Dex, and then there's Alola Forms that also seem to be overshadowing the new Pokemon.
     
    I think it was pretty introductory to a lot of things! I agree with most of you guys, but the thing is Gen 1 had the starting point and the 20th Anniversary is the 20th Anniversary because of Gen 1. I think Sun and Moon is trying to actually be a start of new things but it doesn't have to be all new! Sure most references are for Gen 1 but I think Gen 1 should be given credit where it's due. We'll truly see gen 1 pandering when it overtakes the special anniversary of other games.
    Edit: (sorta forgot this) I get the Alola Forms were gen 1, but that gives us twins (hype and hope) to see other gens getting regional forms too right? :)
     
    colours said:
    At the same time though, I do not feel it is fair to blame Game Freak just because of our super-specific and super stringent expectations that are somehow not being met. If you expect a perfect Pokemon game with every past character, every battle facility, every past region included, and every feature we've had combined in one game, that's going a bit too far. If it actually happens? That'd be freaking sweet, but if it doesn't? Then I don't think pointing the finger at Game Freak and saying "you're doing it wrong" is a fair way to go about with it. Like, unless we've played the game and then feel disappointed afterwards, then fine, at that point is when we're like "Game Freak should improve on x/y/z", but the super super super super low expectations and cynicism that I'm seeing from you as of late implies to me that you're expecting nothing but disappointment from here on out, which... to be fair, is what you're going to get if you really think it's all going to be downhill from here.
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    I can't speak to Rivvon's points personally, but I don't really think that's a fair comparison. I'm not mad because it's not a perfect Pokemon game, and ultimately I am very hyped and excited for the game because a lot of the designs have looked great (Of course, some look not so great, but that's always the case), the plot looks cool, and they've introduced a bunch of new features and strengthened some returning ones.

    But I think it is fair to be very angry at them for the intense amount of gen 1 pandering that they have done. I'm not asking for a game with every past character and every past region and whatever, I'm asking for representation in a game that is supposed to be holistically representing Pokemon for the last 20 years. It's not the 20th anniversary because of just gen 1, sure that was huge but if you remove all of the generations in between you have nothing. The Pokedex is pitifully small and is overshadowed by first generation Pokemon in a time when, as Rivvon said, the generation 1 games are readily available on the 3ds and you can easily transfer them to the current games. The ratio of generation one Pokemon to every other generation is just crazy. Especially since Gamefreak claims that they are trying to give unused Pokemon the limelight, but instead just keep shoving the same thinks into our faces.

    If an old fan of the games is going to get it, it's not going to be because there are more than 80 Kanto Pokemon in the game. 3DSes are expensive and in order to play SM you need to be able to afford a 3DS and a copy of the game. Most people that haven't played Pokemon in a while, save for GO, don't have a 3DS or likely the money to pay for one. It's a nonsensical parallel to draw because in the long run it really won't make that much of a difference. Adding Pokemon to the game because they are readily recognizable is idiotic because part of the joy of Pokemon is discovering the new ones for yourself. Combine this with an ad campaign that reveals almost every new Pokemon in the game and you have yourself a recipe for annoyance.

    Hell, I'm not even asking for there to be less Kanto Pokemon in the game. Add all 151 for all I care, but just add more Pokemon from other generations too!! Especially when you have generations like gen 5 with plenty of good designs and the same amount of Pokemon, they should at least half of the representation compared to Kanto Pokemon. But they have less than 1/3 the amount of Pokemon included from Kanto. Also, if you are going to include so many Kanto Pokemon, at least justify their existence. They added so many Pokemon that should not have been added, that there were better alternatives to. On a series of tropical, volcanic islands, why are Pokemon like Slugma and Tropius not being included in the game?? The dex should ultimately just be bigger because it is pitifully small and excludes many many great designs.
     
    Something to keep in mind is that while this is the 20th anniversary of the series in general, it's also the 20th anniversary of the Kanto games. So it'd make sense to have extra emphasis on those, especially when that part of the franchise is still the most well known.

    I'd have preferred it if there was a more equal amount of love/references made to all the generations, but the much more important thing to me is that the games are of quality, which is unrelated to regional/generational references. There are at least a few things they're doing right in Sun/Moon.
     
    Sure, I see it boosting the games sales, but they've been doing the whole "throwback" routine for quite some time -- even in Pokemon X and Y you had the opportunity to choose a Kanto starter Pokemon. Overall it is becoming stale in my opinion. I feel if they were to base the games in Johto instead, it would be quite the breath of fresh air.
     
    Kanto Pokemon are ridiculously marketable. The gen 1 games was the series' popularity at its peak, it hasn't gone anywhere close since then.

    This is a smart business move, especially coming off Pokemon GO. The games are already breaking records before being out, it's sure to top XY, and I'd bet the Kanto marketing is a big factor.

    It appeals to me, personally. I never played the gen 1 games until they released it on VC early this year, but I've always thought Kanto had the strongest Pokemon designs. I see this as a celebration of Pokemon's start, and I'm all for it.
     
    colours said:
    Honestly Ewery1, you're kind of missing the biggest point of the 20th anniversary as a whole. It's the 20th anniversary of the release of R/B, of course they're going to have the spotlight. To expect anything different would be unrealistic to me.
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    I don't really see why this has to be the case, though. By all means, celebrate generation one, but that's not really the way they presented it, nor are they celebrating it well. As I said, generation one celebration does not mean neglecting the other generations. And if they're going to do something like Alolan forms, they should ultimately be inspired and great like many of the megas were, but instead I felt like the concept was great and some designs were great but ultimately they didn't do the idea justice by confining it to Kanto Pokemon and by making some designs that really we could have gone without.

    As for the 3DS part, sure, I was wrong to make such a broad generalization. But my point was that if most people are going to buy a copy of Sun or Moon with a 3DS/2DS along with it for these single games having not picked up Pokemon for a while, the inclusion of so much Kanto-pandering in things that are not even being marketed, like the Alola dex, will make no difference. There is no reason to bloat the dex with non-Alolan generation one Pokemon, there are many more ways to celebrate generation one, and if that was their intent, they ultimately failed at representing that.

    I'm not a fan of the smaller Pokedex by any means whatsoever and I do agree that it should be bigger, but all of your other points I disagree with. Justify their existence? You do realize that argument can basically be applied to every other regional Pokemon that they included in the games, right? Does Game Freak have to "justify" their "existence" to fans who may not like those particular Pokemon?

    I feel like this is a matter of you not liking particular Kanto Pokemon being added than something Game Freak is actually doing wrong.
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    I'm curious to know how you extrapolated that I didn't like some Kanto Pokemon so I didn't want them to be in the game. What I said was that if you are going to add Pokemon to a game, they should make sense in the region they exist in. I think that Gamefreak could, and should, improve on this a lot. Pokemon placed in different environments should be placed in those environments because they make sense there, not because they are a fan favorite.

    Feel free to design an environment with the intention of including fan favorite Pokemon by all means, that would be great, but don't create an environment and then slap in some Pokemon because TBT!!! Many Pokemon that I don't even like or would use make so much more sense in Alola than the ones that appear in the Alolan Dex currently.

    Kanto Alolan forms are certainly a great marketing strategy and a cool concept, but why should they be limited to Kanto Pokemon? There's no reason to have limited them like that and just not make more designs, even within Kanto.

    My point being, celebrate Kanto all you want, but in celebrating Kanto don't forget that without the other generations there would be no Pokemon today.
     
    Not like Kanto got 2 Pokemon that had 2 Megas, Mewtwo and Charizard.
     
    I don't have a problem with all the Kanto throwbacks and cameos in SM, as long as that's what they'll be: throwbacks and cameos. Now if they start doing more copy-pasting of Kanto and taking away from Alola's identity like they did with Kalos in XY, then that could be a problem for me.
     
    colours said:
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    I mean from a business perspective I totally understand why they're doing it and it makes sense I just don't personally enjoy it, which is pretty much what I'm saying. Also your point about limiting Alolan forms is moot because they easily could have had the same Alolan Pokemon they have now and just added more from other generations, it's not like they didn't have enough time. Ultimately, there was no reason not to limit them, not even from a marketing perspective, if more than 75% of the forms were Kanto that would be fine and they could have just shown those off more. They should have made more Alolan forms is my point.

    The fact that they had an 80% 3DS sale boost following Pokemon GO actually proves my point. Pokemon GO made plenty of sense to have only gen 1 Pokemon but I don't think that that needs to extend to the full game for any reason at all. The full Kanto dex is not about to be released before the game starts and it is not a part of marketing, it is just making the game not diverse with Pokemon that are easily obtainable elsewhere. Pokemon GO brought players back into the franchise but that was Pokemon GO's job and putting in Pokemon simply because they're recognizable is useless and will not bring in any new fans because those people are not keeping up with the dex leaks and that simple fact will not sway their opinion.

    Basically about the mega thing I meant that if they're doing Alolan forms they should have released more and made more widely appealing and unique designs instead of mostly just recolors, but as you said that's mostly useless in this discussion.

    Which, to my interpretation, you didn't have a liking for the Kanto Pokemon that were added because you felt that there should be "better alternatives", along with the fact that Game Freak should "justify their existence", which makes no sense to me. As far as whether or not they actually have a place and make sense in the region, that's a far too subjective point that we can debate back and forth until our fingers fall off our hands but that's not the fault of Game Freak.
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    There's a difference between Pokemon not making sense in their place in the game and not enjoying their designs, one is logical and the other is preference. One of the things that people when making Pokemon fan games do first is considering their Pokedex. They add Pokemon based on what makes sense for the theme they have going and the location etc. Many Pokemon that would have fit very well into Alola are missing in favor of Pokemon that are 'well recognizable'-something inconsequential after somebody has bought the game.

    Again, that's your issue. Nothing is stopping you from transferring those Pokemon that you feel "make sense" over once Pokemon Bank is up. I would really love for more original newer Pokemon personally, but that's not where we're at now, so...
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    No no no you totally misunderstood me. Again, I was talking about the environment. Transferring Pokemon that fit in the environment is pointless because I won't be encountering them. However, if you want to battle with your old favorites from gen 1 do it with the easily accessible Red and Blue games. That's a luxury not afforded for gen 4 or 5 Pokemon.

    Okay. What I'm arguing for is that basically celebrate gen 1 by all means, but like I said that shouldn't take away from the previous gens. What I mean is that generation one has basically overtaken the game. Holistically I really like the game, but there is so much missing in respect to other generations that I feel slighted.
     
    I think it's fine... don't dislike the Kanto centric Marketing/features...

    Do I think it's unfair for other pokemon to get their due... nope, the gen one pokemon has been with us for 20 years now... giving them some new exciting forms doesn't lessen them, heck it's more of an homage really.

    The fact that Alola forms (Which is restricted to gen 1 Pokemon) is seemingly replacing Mega-Evolution and they won't see their favorite Pokemon get an alternate form is leaving a sour taste in most fan's mouths, which is fair because not everyone has a connection to gen 1.

    But hey, This is just an opinion of someone who's first Pokemon Game was Yellow so take that as you will.
     
    Honestly future-games wise I love how easily accessible RBY games and Kanto Pokémon are because if not, they would have remade it and that would have sucked (imo). I don't hate Kanto. As a matter of fact, I love it, I really do but I am tired of hearing from it. That's how I look at it and seriously other gen regions have higher chances of being remade and that makes me excited for Pokémon's future.
    Also I understand how most would hate gen 1 pandering, but they are mostly hardcore fans who really follow the game. But try to understand that the new games are mostly celebrating Gen 1. It's not just the series anniversary, but Gen 1's. Other gens would celebrate their own anniversary but Gen 1 is celebrating with the entirety of it. Believe me I know GF and TPCi are doing their best for these games but they are looking at Gen one because they are trying to honor what Gen 1 deserves. Still, I trust GF to follow through after these games and that they'll make it up to us in the following games and Gens. Enjoy the games as they are: games. Pokémon is Pokémon whether there is more gen one, or not. I liked Gen 1 but I loved Gen 2 first and Gen 3 stepped up to being my favorite. And honestly, I don't mind them giving Gen one it's deserved pandering after 20 years of Pokémon.
     
    I thought Pokémon 20th Anniversary was to celebrate the franchise as a whole... Not just Pokémon Red and Pokémon Blue. I thought they had already celebrated Gen 1's anniversary for making virtual copies of the first games '-'

    Anyway, I'm not going to complain... I just don't care already :/ Let's just hope my hype doesn't disappear and that Alola stays unique as it should be!
     
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