[Discussion] The future of Pokémon Essentials

[FL]

i never posted here, i guess, but i always read everything here and i'm still trying to start up some project i have lot of ideas but i fell some lack of resources and i dont have much knowledge to do it...

but here is my suggestion:

why not create an essential kit like the one we already have for rmxp, but for unity 3d or some sort of 3d engine powerfull enough to evolve trough time and keep compatibly with an online sharing database with focus on android, iphone and windows, with an double side create and play? hacks and game development are always under gamefreak level, but i see a lot of unity 3d games around and they all can go very further the gen 6 level...

this essentials kit for unity 3d would came with all rpg mechanics directly in pokemon style, every pokemon, moves, and everything from the main series (regions, etc) on the database, all revamped on full 3d style, creating some kind of auto update pokemon engine, with both, play and create feature, all online.

i dont know how unity 3d works and if can be created something on this level or would be need a complete new engine, but the idea is some way to unite all people and all works on something of online shop to upload and download things, on this way we can have something better than gen 6 on graphics, and an dashboard to everyone who plays be able to start up your own story, own game inside a big game with the same engine, this way fakemons, regions, stories, different gameplays, would have their set of unique features and each thing of it, would be reused on another projects.. creating a database of resources to be linked in each project. it would make possible to create fakemons and use fakemons created by others on your project, creating an complete fanmade pokedex, the games would be marked as using or not fakemons, it would make possible to visit a region of a game someone created, with the player of another creator, someone create a game A, someone else a game B, you can start on a game and jump to another one, with the same character and pokemons, you can transfers all your pokemon from a lot of fangames into one big box, since each feature would be add to the main database for everyone. some years after this start up we would have an infinite options to create more and more. it would end up that thing of "you stole my tile" since each individual resource would be marked by this author, and the engine would credit each thing. when play some game the client download only the files needed to the sd card. the engine would have some battle system compatible to any kind of fangame created beside the custom battle system, and this would make possible to battle on the cell phone trough wifi, 3g, or any kind of connection of the cellphone, the engine would be linked with social features, and even put the client of the engine himself as an home for the cellphone, connected with your contact list, so you can trade and battle, some king of viber-whatsapp + pokemon + facebook home i mean.... so everyone would create, share, and play every kind of projects someone create and reuse it, today is a little hard to know all hacks and all games made by the fandom, and everyone who startup something bust redone a lot of things by himself... and this would be made only once. once this is created, the community would self updated it for itself.. people would even earn money with this... its just an egg idea, must work up, i guess that some of you can put it further... them everyone would join in... i'm not interested on lead it, i'm to weak on knowledge by now, but if someone start a thread about this i will show up with more ideas and the general concept...

this idea can be also for other kind of games, pokemon is an rpg turn based, so we can have this>

engine for the database for the connectivity, sharing, and social feature > sub engine for rpg, to be expanded to other kinds of rpg, splited on types of rpg, along with other kinds of engines for other kinds of games, since them all are on the same root platform, we can have some compatibly using each feature as a plug and play on a project allowing a game with more than one engines > sub engine for pokemon

once the root engine is updated every child engine are updated too, without messing up the keys of the games, so they can still be playable after the author dies... lol for exemple, i create a game now, with up to gen 5 pokemon, then i die, i dont need to update the game to my game have gen 6, 7, 8, 1003838722, pokemon, since the main engine would be updated, someone can like my game, and make a sequel pluging it directly on the end of my game, if i'm alive i can mark it as official.. if not everyone who access this will se the sequel because this will be tagged... time will run and new os will be made, so all we have to do is updated the main engine, grapphics can be enhanced as an individual set, well the possibilities are infinite... all we need is an main structure...

that... would be epic... and may be even possible to find a way to make the original games compatible with fangames...

First, Unity3D is VERY more complex than RPG Maker. Find and edit 3D resources is VERY more difficult than 2D ones and these two thins are vital things that may destroys the engine popularity, and then, engine support.

Your resource sharing idea is similar to some 3D galleries, specially Unity3D Assets Store, but isn't hard to remove some author credits.

Both Engines can provide auto-updates features and even connect with some web shops made by the game/kit designer, but is a little complex to implement these things. To "jump between games too", if the games haven't different fakemons this isn't hard. If the sequel uses an updated database, isn't hard to port the savefile. The root/child updates are almost impracticable because of different customizations, but this can be something like the Wikia Medusa System in wiki codes. In Essentials isn't hard to add new generation pokémon to a open project and similar things.

There are several tools to communicate between different languages/engines and, the last thing that the original creator of Essentials (Poccil) almost done are transform pokémon into Game Shark codes (and vice-versa) to communicate the pokémon between official games and even other platforms like Shoddy Battle.

And last: If even simpler engines/kits aren't finished here, imagine a complex one like this.

 

[Worldslayer608]

I have been thinking a lot lately, about the state of the community and what it means to me.

As a member who has been here for quite a few years, I have seen the activity of this section sky rocket and finally begin to decline. This section has been on an active decline for 4 years now and it continues to depreciate.

Discontinuing Pokemon Essentials will inevitably kill this section.

It is incredibly sad that Pokemon Essentials is in the state that it is in.

There are features that are being left out because they are deemed non-essential, despite being an official feature at one point or another. This begins to mean that there are less and less diverse games hitting the progressing section as well as the show case, because options are bottle necked.

What is even more appalling is that when something does surface, developers shy from releasing the script because it makes their game unique. While I fully understand this, I consider PE to be open sourced and community contribution is what has to happen to actually keep it afloat. Maruno is left doing an incredibly large portion of development as things progress and it really is not all that fair.

Bridging the gap between these two issues is the approach to mending the state of Pokemon Essentials, and I do not feel as though there is enough of a community to actually do this.

I have pretty much enjoyed being a reserved individual in this community, chiming in when I have advice or something to say, but otherwise quietly working on my own thing. Recently contemplating doing another tutorial for members here, I ended up pondering the idea of periodic articles once again, to provide the community with a bulletin board of information and thoughts. So I feel that the underlying question is not what the future of Pokemon Essentials is, but what the future of this community is. Essentials is capable of growing at a more efficient pace if there is a community that supports it, and a community that supports it is a community that cares about it.

I see a small community that only cares about their own projects. I see a community that is not educated or skilled enough to support and open source project such as Pokemon Essentials. I see a community that revolves around a single entity and a single, primary contributor.

Some food for thought.

 

[Luka S.J.]

There are features that are being left out because they are deemed non-essential, despite being an official feature at one point or another. This begins to mean that there are less and less diverse games hitting the progressing section as well as the show case, because options are bottle necked.

What is even more appalling is that when something does surface, developers shy from releasing the script because it makes their game unique. While I fully understand this, I consider PE to be open sourced and community contribution is what has to happen to actually keep it afloat. Maruno is left doing an incredibly large portion of development as things progress and it really is not all that fair.

I see a small community that only cares about their own projects. I see a community that is not educated or skilled enough to support and open source project such as Pokemon Essentials. I see a community that revolves around a single entity and a single, primary contributor.

The following is not a personal attack, just impulsive responses to an accumulated topic. I mean no disrespect. The "you"s that are used are just used to direct the message to any hypothetical reader.

An even bigger problem is that we constantly keep getting posts like this, which in all fairness, are not helpful at all. It is super simple to criticise, and put the blame on someone else. If you really want Essentials to improve, if you really want to add the features deemed "non-essential", learn RGSS, and add them yourself. Everybody around here got used to Maruno catering them, that no one was ever bothered to pick up one of the crucial parts of programming a game. Now that Maruno is showing a little less interest, everyone feels crippled.

Let's face it, everyone here seems to think Graphics are the most important part of the game. Improve graphics this, add new tilesets that - whatever. Now we get a lot of pretty games, with little to none gameplay originality. That's fine when no one minds. But out comes GameFreak's new game, and everybody goes crazy over adding in the new mechanics to Essentials. And funny thing is, no one asks "how am I going to do it?", they ask "when is Maruno going to do it?".

Who ever wants to contribute, can. But just because someone knows how to code in Ruby, and can create mechanics that are not present in Essentials, doesn't mean they have to share it with everyone because they don't want to be bothered with the hassle. I spent the last 5 years coding, learning and improving. Personally, I'd feel disrespected if people expected me to just give them everything that I've put so much effort into, while they can't be bothered to put in the same effort, and offer me the same professional courtesy.

Coding takes time, practice and patience. Hey, if you don't feel like sacrificing some of your time to learn this, or aren't simply capable of learning it - stock Essentials is what you get. No one is forcing you to learn RGSS, and you certainly don't need thorough knowledge of it to create a Pokemon fan-game. You'll just be left with limited options.

Some final food for thought: why do you think some of the more skilled game-devs (coders) left this place? Wichu, Neo-Dragon, Waudby, CNG, DaSpirit. This section of the forum always operated on "ask first, think later" and "spoonfeeding" principles. Kinda makes you lose interest...

 

[Worldslayer608]

I think you took my post the wrong way.

I was not saying there is anything wrong with keeping things to themselves when it comes to development.

I do however, feel there is something wrong with the level of give and take that this community exerts. There is some skewed idea that is akin to seeders and leeches in the world of file sharing.

The problem is the community and the level at which there is all take and no give. That most certainly extends beyond resources.

"Give a man a fish..."

 

[Luka S.J.]

I think you took my post the wrong way.

I was not saying there is anything wrong with keeping things to themselves when it comes to development.

I do however, feel there is something wrong with the level of give and take that this community exerts. There is some skewed idea that is akin to seeders and leeches in the world of file sharing.

The problem is the community and the level at which there is all take and no give. That most certainly extends beyond resources.

"Give a man a fish..."

Ok, I hear you. How about a simple, realistic scenario:

I have Maths at university. I don't feel like attending any of the lectures, and I don't really feel like doing any homework. When it comes to tests, I can't be bothered to study before hand. Don't really want to sacrifice my free time for that. Then comes the day where I go and take my exam, and fail my subject. Then I go home, and start whining about it.

This is the mindframe. Hence all take and no give. Because no one has anything to give. Why? Because they haven't accumulated any skill to give. Why? They couldn't be bothered to acquire said skill. Now what? Nothing. IMO, coding is the easiest segment of Game Dev, just sayin'.

The problem is not that everyone is asking you for a fish, the problem is that these people are bothered enough to say "No", but don't care enough to simply show someone how to catch their own fish.

No one here needs to be a shepherd and guide you through the unknown lands of RGSS and mechanics coding. There are plenty, and I mean PLENTY of tutorials out there that do that. All it takes is a little initiative on the "sheep's" behalf.

 

[Worldslayer608]

No one here needs to be a shepherd and guide you through the unknown lands of RGSS and mechanics coding. There are plenty, and I mean PLENTY of tutorials out there that do that. All it takes is a little initiative on the "sheep's" behalf.

Then you have no sense of community, and you have no right to complain when there is not one.

Guides are not always relevant to the material being played with, and learning a programming language, 3D rendering, visual presentations etc. Generally require you to already know a little bit about it as is. A lot of guides skip the bare bones basics, and I mean a LOT. It makes it hard for the average joe to break into it.

I have been doing a lot of mathematical and analytical work lately, and if I have taken anything from it, it is that at some point, you begin to talk over someones head if they are wanting to understand it and that is not their fault.

 

[Luka S.J.]

Then you have no sense of community, and you have no right to complain when there is not one.

Haha, I'm not the one complaining. I have all the tools I need. And as for the community, there are tons of links and references to various things around here too. All it takes is a little initiative to search for things. I assumed that people would at least try to find a solution to their problem on their own first, before posting threads, demanding stuff. When I'm in a pickle, I turn to Google first, then some manuals, then some friends. Opening a thread, is the last thing on my checklist. And by the time I get to that, I already solved my problem.

Guides are not always relevant to the material being played with, and learning a programming language, 3D rendering, visual presentations etc. Generally require you to already know a little bit about it as is. A lot of guides skip the bare bones basics, and I mean a LOT. It makes it hard for the average joe to break into it.

I am not making this up, but 5 years ago, out of the blue, I decided to make a Pokemon game. I had no knowledge of anything. The most I knew was how to write using Word, make presentations in Powerpoint, and do some stuff in Excel. So me, a person with zero knowledge, is now passing university programming classes with the best grades, and the lowest of effort. Why? Because I wanted to learn something, I got down to learning it, I spent a lot of time learning it. All this, from the ground up. Everyone starts at 0. Seriously, I am no genious, or a special person. I can be quite dumb. If I could learn RGSS to the level I am at now, just by reverse-engineering Pokemon Essentials, I don't see why others couldn't too. I never read any tutorials, because I don't like reading. All my knowledge came from trial and error, and all the open source code that was available to me, as it is to all the people here. So what makes them so special that they need special attention/help that I didn't need?

 

[Worldslayer608]

Haha, I'm not the one complaining. I have all the tools I need. And as for the community, there are tons of links and references to various things around here too. All it takes is a little initiative to search for things. I assumed that people would at least try to find a solution to their problem on their own first, before posting threads, demanding stuff. When I'm in a pickle, I turn to Google first, then some manuals, then some friends. Opening a thread, is the last thing on my checklist. And by the time I get to that, I already solved my problem.



I am not making this up, but 5 years ago, out of the blue, I decided to make a Pokemon game. I had no knowledge of anything. The most I knew was how to write using Word, make presentations in Powerpoint, and do some stuff in Excel. So me, a person with zero knowledge, is now passing university programming classes with the best grades, and the lowest of effort. Why? Because I wanted to learn something, I got down to learning it, I spent a lot of time learning it. All this, from the ground up. Everyone starts at 0. Seriously, I am no genious, or a special person. I can be quite dumb. If I could learn RGSS to the level I am at now, just by reverse-engineering Pokemon Essentials, I don't see why others couldn't too. I never read any tutorials, because I don't like reading. All my knowledge came from trial and error, and all the open source code that was available to me, as it is to all the people here. So what makes them so special that they need special attention/help that I didn't need?

Luka, I know you well enough to understand that you are not an average person.

I fully understand where you are coming from, I am working in Life Insurance and at 24 years old I found myself in an interview where they were throwing out jargon that was way above my head. I seriously just nodded along as if I knew exactly what they were talking about just so I could get the job. The truth is, I had no idea what they were saying and I knew absolutely nothing about insurance of any kind let alone the numbers and how to calculate them. I am the kind of person that will run something through until I figure it out, and probably ask a lot of questions or wear out my keyboard looking for it. If I want to learn something, I will eventually learn it because I am one of those people who likes to be a jack of all trades.

However, there are an incredible number of people that struggle when they cannot receive help. I see agents come and go from our agency, every week. because they walk into the job, sit down at an agency meeting, and never come back because they just didn't get it. If I were leading these meetings, I sure as hell would slow down my roll for the new people for simple sake of retention. That is also easier said than done.

Going through it all over the years, you and I have been here for some time, it is easy to overlook the basic need for clarity. I am guilty of not being clear, or not slowing down, and even not sharing a bit of knowledge.

But I do when I can, and I try to do the best that I can. Unfortunately, many can't even seem to be bothered to teach someone how to fish.

I don't necessarily want to see everyone sharing their stuff, I DO want to see more people caring about the growth of this community and helping it get there and that is in the hands of those who can teach members to fish.

 

[Luka S.J.]

Luka, I know you well enough to understand that you are not an average person.

I fully understand where you are coming from, I am working in Life Insurance and at 24 years old I found myself in an interview where they were throwing out jargon that was way above my head. I seriously just nodded along as if I knew exactly what they were talking about just so I could get the job. The truth is, I had no idea what they were saying and I knew absolutely nothing about insurance of any kind let alone the numbers and how to calculate them. I am the kind of person that will run something through until I figure it out, and probably ask a lot of questions or wear out my keyboard looking for it. If I want to learn something, I will eventually learn it because I am one of those people who likes to be a jack of all trades.

However, there are an incredible number of people that struggle when they cannot receive help. I see agents come and go from our agency, every week. because they walk into the job, sit down at an agency meeting, and never come back because they just didn't get it. If I were leading these meetings, I sure as hell would slow down my roll for the new people for simple sake of retention. That is also easier said than done.

Going through it all over the years, you and I have been here for some time, it is easy to overlook the basic need for clarity. I am guilty of not being clear, or not slowing down, and even not sharing a bit of knowledge.

But I do when I can, and I try to do the best that I can. Unfortunately, many can't even seem to be bothered to teach someone how to fish.

I don't necessarily want to see everyone sharing their stuff, I DO want to see more people caring about the growth of this community and helping it get there.

I just don't understand why many wouldn't be capable of teaching themselves how to fish, by learning about fishing from existing lore. The impression I got here was not the lack of mental capacity to learn, but rather the lack of mental will to learn. I've seen so many threads around here, where the same, ridiculous questions get asked and answered, and no one takes anything from them. This is perhaps my biggest issue. It doesn't matter how many times, and how much the more skilled people around here help out, when people aren't learning anything from it. When they don't want to learn anything from it. Where all they care for are answers and results, rather than "how we got them". Threads like "adding in Mega Evolutions", aren't asking "please teach us how to do it", they are saying "we want it implemented". Big difference. And as long as there is an abundance of those, no one will learn to fish, because no one is really asking how to fish. They just want the damn fish. And they'll pester you until you give it up.

You know what the saddest part is? Life is like that: More often, no one will be there for you when you need help - that's all a part of growing up. There are two roads you can take from there. One is a road to self development and progression, allowing you to overcome your obstacle. The other is falling into the pit. And out of sad personal experience, when I needed help from individuals of this community, I wasn't even worth a reply. Funny how now, some people which I asked for help, but didn't even get a simple "no", are now asking me for help.

Priorities are really important. Ask yourself, how much you really want something. I know, making a fan-game is a hobby, but to me, hobbies are just as important as education or work. Hobbies are what allows you to clear your mind of all the stress and pressure from the world. They are important for mental health. But because they are hobbies and not mandatory, some people are less inclined to implement work ethics into their hobby, and hence...we have this. In the end, it's their problem, not mine. I can't really bring myself to sympathise with anyone in this situation right now, because I've been in it, we all have. If you really have any interest, any passion for this, it will be more than enough to get you through.

So just like you said, when you really wanted something, you got to it and didn't stop until you reached your end goal. Same thing here, I really wanted to know how to code in Ruby, and now I can. Everything in life takes effort. If you want to play basketball, you have to practice. If you want to know how to play an instrument, you have to practice. If you want to learn another language, you have to practice. This is no different. Once again, a little initiative is required...for anything. There are plenty of things to nudge you in the right direction. Pokemon Essentials and its Wiki, are one of those things. Hmm...many seem to forget about the wiki. Oh, and not to mention all the comments in the codes themselves. Or the actual codes? Ruby isn't a hard language to follow. Compared to stuff like C and Java, Ruby, is straightforward. The syntax won't give you problems. All you are left with, actually, is learning about functions of the code. For instance: How to do calculations? What are classes? What are arrays? How do you use those in the code? And for all that you can just press F1 in RMXP and get the help manual. Type in the search "array" (for example), and voila, you have everything you need. It's that simple.

 

[Worldslayer608]

Yeah... I don't really have a response any more. I love you Luka, but we just won't see eye to eye on this one.

 

[FL]

I think you took my post the wrong way.

I was not saying there is anything wrong with keeping things to themselves when it comes to development.

I do however, feel there is something wrong with the level of give and take that this community exerts. There is some skewed idea that is akin to seeders and leeches in the world of file sharing.

The problem is the community and the level at which there is all take and no give. That most certainly extends beyond resources.

"Give a man a fish..."

This is the problem, but keep in mind that more than 50% of the Essentials users doesn't last for more than a month. Some are too young, some are not interested enough, etc...

I just don't understand why many wouldn't be capable of teaching themselves how to fish, by learning about fishing from existing lore. The impression I got here was not the lack of mental capacity to learn, but rather the lack of mental will to learn. I've seen so many threads around here, where the same, ridiculous questions get asked and answered, and no one takes anything from them. This is perhaps my biggest issue. It doesn't matter how many times, and how much the more skilled people around here help out, when people aren't learning anything from it. When they don't want to learn anything from it. Where all they care for are answers and results, rather than "how we got them". Threads like "adding in Mega Evolutions", aren't asking "please teach us how to do it", they are saying "we want it implemented". Big difference. And as long as there is an abundance of those, no one will learn to fish, because no one is really asking how to fish. They just want the damn fish. And they'll pester you until you give it up.

Let me pick a Post that Maruno's agree from the same thread that you cited:

A important note: For a independent Essentials script developers a plug and play script minigame is very easier to do than a (relativelly) big change that involve battle system, not only for the user to install, but for the dev to explain how to install. And the dev needs to support the script and making it compatible with Essentials future versions.

So, for a dev other than Maruno to implement something in Essentials, they need to implement in the last Essentials version. Additionally, they need to keep track of EVERY line included/changed, explain how to redo ALL the changes and Maruno need to follow all these instructions (sometimes Maruno finds a better way of implementing a feature). And you need to combine with Maruno before or, depending of the change, he rejects. That I trying to say is: For a dev other than Maruno, adding things in Essentials requires more effort, except for some plug and play scripts like the Hall of Fame that I made.

Haha, I'm not the one complaining. I have all the tools I need. And as for the community, there are tons of links and references to various things around here too. All it takes is a little initiative to search for things. I assumed that people would at least try to find a solution to their problem on their own first, before posting threads, demanding stuff. When I'm in a pickle, I turn to Google first, then some manuals, then some friends. Opening a thread, is the last thing on my checklist. And by the time I get to that, I already solved my problem.

Really I do the same thing, the community need more of this.

I am not making this up, but 5 years ago, out of the blue, I decided to make a Pokemon game. I had no knowledge of anything. The most I knew was how to write using Word, make presentations in Powerpoint, and do some stuff in Excel. So me, a person with zero knowledge, is now passing university programming classes with the best grades, and the lowest of effort. Why? Because I wanted to learn something, I got down to learning it, I spent a lot of time learning it. All this, from the ground up. Everyone starts at 0. Seriously, I am no genious, or a special person. I can be quite dumb. If I could learn RGSS to the level I am at now, just by reverse-engineering Pokemon Essentials, I don't see why others couldn't too. I never read any tutorials, because I don't like reading. All my knowledge came from trial and error, and all the open source code that was available to me, as it is to all the people here. So what makes them so special that they need special attention/help that I didn't need?

Because not everyone have vocation for programming. I followed several people learning programming, some I even teach. For someones, using two "while"s, one inside another, it's almost an impossible task to mastered, even if I comment/explain line by line of a code that do this for something, several times.

And even for a programmer with 0/1/5/10/20 years of experience I suggest to read tutorials/guides, because the best way to learn is a combinations of theory and practice. There are thing that are easier to understand with practice and others with theory. Don't reinvent the wheel.

I also coding everything (almost) without tutorials guides in the first years, but this creates for me blind points in parts that I can improve, specially at testing. And there parts that I would learn faster by tutorials than testing.

And coding isn't the only way for helping the community: https://pokemonessentials.wikia.com/wiki/How_you_can_help . More people should read this page.

 

[Zeak6464]

Well Pokémon Essentials has actually been updated a lot from the past year,
Look at Pokémon TCG Mod
Look at RMXP-OS
Look at the Android Version / Mac Version
This engine is getting updated all the time !
To Help out the Community , when my mmo game gets finished I will be releasing it as a Base to use.

What can the community do to help out everyone ?
1: Make a PVP to work with RMXP-OS

2: Make all the region maps?
Kento:100%
Johto:100%
Hoenn:25%
Sinnoh:0%
Unova:0%

3:Gen 6 Pokemon

4:Mega Evolutions

5: Pokemon TCG ?

These are all ideas that still need to be done
We need to come together as one big group
Yes I know I can be pig-headed but I think big !