The Men's Rights Movement

[twocows]

There's been a lot of talk touching on issues related to this in other threads lately and it's a topic that's important to me, so I thought I'd make a thread on it for discussion.

This thread is about the men's rights movement. Generally speaking, men's rights advocates, or MRAs for short, are people who advocate for fair and equal treatment for men, both under the law and in society at large. The men's rights movement is a very loosely defined movement with as much variation in opinion as you would find within supporters of a popular political party or in a popular religion like Christianity. However, there are a number of issues that tend to be frequently discussed by MRAs, such as some of the issues listed here.

So, let's discuss the men's rights movement and some popular men's issues, such as those listed in the link I gave. To start things off, what do you think of the men's rights movement in general? What are your feelings on some of the issues MRAs frequently bring up? Which men's rights issues, if any, do you feel are valid, and why (or why not)? Try to keep in mind that the men's rights movement isn't a single, unified group and that many MRAs disagree on specific points. Feel free to bring up anything else related to the topic even if it's not related to something I touched on here.

 

[Rogue planet]

I'm a big advocate for men's rights. It really does sicken me how some men are demonized for no good reason by a large amount of groups.

One day I really hope all men will be given the fair treatment they deserve. Once gay marriage is legal globally, and homosexual men are no longer marginalized, subjected to ridicule, bad treatment or stereotypes, then us male advocates can truly rejoice.

 

[Rogue planet]

Woah, someone call the air marshal, we've got a hijacking going on here!

There are plenty of threads relating specifically to gay rights, whilst sexuality is a part of gender issues I object to your splintered advocacy for a single portion of the male community, you're implying straight men do not face bad treatment or do not deserve attention. Whilst the plight of gays may be more obvious I think their advocates are just as evident of a discriminatory society but hey, it's okay if it's in support of a "minority", a term I don't like either.

I'll respond to your thread in more depth when I get the opportunity, twocows.

Please point out where I implied anything of the sort.

Is this not a men's rights advocacy thread? And was I not pointing out a major way that men are mistreated? I fail to see your problem here, the thread is not entitled "straight men's advocacy."

Whilst I'm here I might as well mention how I do not solely support homosexual men. I am also frequently appalled at how black men are mistreated, for example how black males are far more likely to face jail time than any other ethnicity, despite crime statistics showing that their crime levels do not correlate to this.

 

[doesn't matter]

I will try to make my post as civil as possible out of respect to my friend twocows, but I am not a fan of the MRA movement (I am a big fan of twocows though).

I must shamefully admit that I was once what you would call an "MRA" (as some of the older posters here who remember my posting career may have noticed). I'm not really sure what took me there originally - I believe it was anti-feminism (feminism being the ideological movement - I'm all for the genuinely feminine). In any case I wound up reading dozens of articles a day about how feminism ruined this and women are capable of that and divorce and lost children and just being constantly surrounded by all this negativity and bitterness really eats at you and so I wound up negative and bitter and hateful hahaha oh man but I'm okay now seriously.

Now that wasn't to say I was about to chuck an Elliot Rodgers lol, I was actually a pretty happy and cheerful guy, and still am. But there was a a certain darkness in how I perceived the world during that time. That said, I still think the world is pretty crappy, but I can joke about it a lot more and it doesn't bother me like it used to, haha.

Anyway, that is just my personal experience with the "movement" (which really wasn't defined by much experience at all, which probably is a major problem with the movement too). I feel there are much more stronger critiques of the movement one can make.

Firstly, it is pretty much the male version of feminism. MRAs (as stated above) seek the equality that the feminist movement promised. This is foolish in my opinion as men and women, while complementary, are not the same, thus seeking "equality" is futile. In addition, they are battling on their terms, which makes it so much harder for them anyway.

Secondly, blaming feminism for our current societal woes is incorrect. Sure it's easy to blame feminism for a lot of problems in our society, but the root causes go back further than feminism. It goes back to what caused feminism to arise, and that is something that MRAs do not ever address (nor will they ever, since it isn't in their interests. Remember, they just seem to want equality). In addition, because they rarely expand their scope outside of feminism (if ever), the movement remains stunted.

My third argument against the movement stems from the previous one. Outside of the internet and college campuses, feminism isn't really a big deal. In fact, hardly anyone even gives a crap about it (praise Allah), and most women today who identify as feminists probably would find themselves at odds with 3rd wave feminism anyway (like ♥♥♥♥ Walks for instance). This means that for the most part, MRAs are just fighting a boogeyman (much like how feminists have their big bad patriarchy).

Now there are some other complaints I have but they mostly are because of what the movement is associated with, namely, PUAs. Sure not all MRAs are PUAs and not PUAs are MRAs (though they're both feminists lol), but the strong association the movement has with PUAs indicates the type of problem with the men that are comprised of it. Men have not learnt how to be men, and that's why they fall into PUA and the MRA movement. One could argue that feminism is to blame for that too, but that doesn't stop one pulling up their socks and becoming a man now, or at least trying to. The MRA movement mostly seems comprised of whinging. Perhaps some of that whinging is accompanied by action, sure, but there should be a lot more action, because that is what mature men do (though if there's not much that can be done then there's nothing wrong with having a good ol' laugh about it while society circles the drain).

Despite all my arguments above, I am not saying that the MRA movement does not have some worthwhile points, and the issues listed in twocows' link are important. But as I stated in my second argument, they are wrong (for the most part) as to what is the cause. Furthermore, many of those issues can be avoided by not being a moron. For instance, don't marry a bad woman if you don't want to be divorced and lose your kids, or be falsely accused of domestic abuse. Don't sleep around if you don't want to risk being accused of rape (this ties into being a man). I'll admit that these fears still sometimes play on my mind, but I believe that I've found a good woman that I can trust, so hopefully I'm not wrong.

There's actually so much more one could go into the above issues, but I feel that I wouldn't be able to elaborate well enough to do it justice.

Anyway, while I did say I was ashamed of my past political views, I wouldn't take them back either, because they were part of an ongoing development. I hope everyone who reads this thread learns at least something about their own views and reflects upon it.

Lastly, I love you twocows. You mah ♥♥♥♥♥.

 

[icomeanon6]

I'm trying to think of what "men's rights" would mean. If it's distinct from "human's rights" or "women's rights," it would sound like rights that are particular to males. The only one I can think of right now is the right to expect that women won't walk into the men's restroom while I'm using a urinal.

Jokes aside, I'm not an MRA for the same reason I'm not a feminist: I don't believe in setting up societal gender relations on us-versus-them lines. Rape is wrong because it's a violent crime, not because the victim is a woman; similarly those accused of rape deserve due process because due process is necessary for a just society, not because the accused is a man. What I see happening in our culture is that whenever we are confronted with an unresolved crime in the media (Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman come to mind) everyone picks a side they want to be be vindicated. We care about it more than the truth.

Anyway, I'm not going to say anything in particular about MRAs because they're vaguer than Occupy Wall Street. All I'm going to say is that our society has an unhealthy obsession with what is or isn't masculine or feminine, and just about everyone on every side of every issue is guilty in their own special way. Whether it's stupid manly men who discourage young girls from getting into the maths and sciences, or stupid womanly women who discourage young boys from cutting loose and roughhousing during recess. Enough, already. If we focus on raising our children to be good people, we'll find that manly virtues and womanly virtues are less at odds than we think.

 

[gimmepie]

Warehouse - To simplify what Pika was saying, you're talking about sexuality issues and racial issues in a thread about male rights. The individual groups within the male gender are not the issue here but the gender as a whole.

I personally don't really identify as a male rights activist, but I find more and more I am becoming one. I feel as though this movement is a lot less hypocritical than the feminist movement and I feel the "fighting for my rights without attempting to undermine yours" aspect is something I agree with.

Personally I think we as a society need to move past the point where feminists or MRAs are a thing. We need to stop focusing on each gender separately and improve human rights as a whole.

But hey, at least this group admits they are only really focusing on one gender...

 

[Star-Lord]

Please point out where I implied anything of the sort.

Is this not a men's rights advocacy thread? And was I not pointing out a major way that men are mistreated? I fail to see your problem here, the thread is not entitled "straight men's advocacy."

Don't you dare lump my struggles as a gay man into a ridiculous movement (imo - I'm not going to get into the whole MRA thing because I believe the majority of people know my views on it and I find discussion on MRAs sort of taxing and not worth my time. Props to twocows for being nice about it the last time we discussed it). My struggles are because I am gay, not because I'm a man.

Gay rights should not be considered with mens rights. They are two separate issues. Men have their own issues in society caused by gender roles (The fact women get more child custody for instance, the way society has brought up ideas that men should be more violent and the like) but these are things that are separate from the stereotypes which come from being gay.

Actually no, I'm done with it here. I'm not wasting more time on this. I'm going to ask as a gay man for you not to lump me in with this movement because I find it harmful to my own. Thanks.

 

[Plumpyfoof]

Gimmepie has the right idea. As long as feminisim and MRA's continue to be a thing, they're going to be met with some form of opposition. Equal rights for both genders isn't going to happen until both of those constructs are torn down.

I identify as a feminist because it's constructive. Feminism isn't about bringing men down to where women are, it's about bringing women up. I can't help but feel like Men's Rights Advocacy is an overreaction to the former ideology only held by a small misinformed minority.

 

[gimmepie]

@Plumpy - The problem with that minority is that it is more vocal and holds a hell of a lot of sway within the movement. At least though, they are honest with their views. It is the hypocritical feminists that drive me up the wall.

This movement seems to hold a lot of similar ideals to the first wave of feminists, the ones I actually can somewhat agree with. The only reason I don't identify as an MRA is because that whilst I believe they are correct in their beliefs the more we create a divide between genders the further away from equality we will become.

I'm not an MRA. I'm not a feminist. I won't be a sheep to some movement. I want justice for both genders. We have equality right now, since we both have a ridiculous amount of prejudice placed on us by various groups, the next step is to achieve justice and dissolve this prejudice altogether which won't be achieved whilst movements continue to compete with each other and in-fight amongst themselves.

 

[Rogue planet]

You're doing it again. Right away you're attempting to discriminate between what types of groups deserve special treatment from others. That in itself is racist, sexist etc. I have a fundamental disagreement with that mentality because it is self-serving to whatever an interest group decides to label a minority.

It is not because they are a minority, it's because they face unfair treatment which has been specified in examples. It is not special treatment to ask for equality...
And it is specific to men also. Gay men typically face more discrimination than gay women, the black men and crime example is specific to them because they are men, not just because they are black. It is a combination of the two.

One of the most common things brought up in these kinds of discussions, parental custody. Rights for fathers. Constantly I see this. Well there are already advocate groups for fathers, so should they not be included because it's a separate thing? Not every man is a father. This is picking and choosing which men's rights to care about, and which to ignore.

You're a man, you deserve to be treated as a human, as does a woman, to me it is as simple as that. I've heard the argument that certain groups need special attention to level the playing field against all us straight, rich white folk sipping margaritas and playing golf. That comes at the expense of treating people fairly and not demonising those you see as privileged.

At no point have I demonised anyone? I have said nothing against straight people or white people in this thread.

This is highly amusing because you also support feminism, one of the primary demonisers of "some men". To me it seems you only care about your own side which consists of the typical minorities- gays, women and coloured folk.

Who are these "some men"? I have no doubt that this "demonising" I'm apparently guilty of is because of certain personality traits they have, and not because they are men.

Warehouse - To simplify what Pika was saying, you're talking about sexuality issues and racial issues in a thread about male rights. The individual groups within the male gender are not the issue here but the gender as a whole.

See above. They are problems that are specific to men, if you are a men's rights activist, surely you should be fighting for all problems faced by men, regardless of whether it's "already covered by other groups". Like I also said earlier, fathers already have advocate groups, but are constantly used as a flagship for MRAs.

snip

You're still a man though. I know why you don't want to be grouped together, but if MRA actually were supportive of all men then maybe you wouldn't feel that way. I was raising the subject because I wanted people to prove my point that MRA's are actually not representative of all men's issues, and only pick and choose their own interests.

 

[Keiran]

Is it necessarily a bad thing a core reason for the movement is to stand up to extremist feminism? It's hard to quantify how many radical feminists exist but they do exist, they are also extremely vocal and potentially influential. I disagree with the ideology of supporting separate groups but if women choose to use their free speech to lobby for misguided empowerment men should be able to do the same.

About "bringing women up" an MRA would fear that this is at the expense of men. Feminism is flawed in that it assumes the situation of males in society is perfect. It's dangerous in that it does little to recognise that men do face problems and we are not some sort of privileged patriarchal conspiracy. Mens issues can be just as serious as womens issues and with all the focus on female empowerment we are being ignored. Well that's what an MRA would say.

If you look at some of the education statistics in twocows link they paint a picture of men inadvertantly being brought down by feminism and the focus on empowering women in the classroom.

Your logic is flawed. Bringing women up to the point where they are succeeding, as often or more often as men, does not make Feminism guilty of causing societal harm to men. Do not confuse the inactivity of MRAs as an offense from Feminism. If MRAs feel men are being ignored, then they need to do something other than constantly complain about Feminism. I believe it was twocows intention to create a space in which to discuss Men's Rights issues, of which Feminism is not - and no Feminist is denying him that.

 

[gimmepie]

@Gold - You still don't get it. The discrimination gay men get for being gay is different to the discrimination they get for being men. That's why you're wrong, you're bringing up an entirely separate issue.

The only part that actually fits is where you more or less said "it is considered more okay for women to be gay than men". That is a male rights issue not a gay rights issue - or at least it is less so about gay rights and more about male rights - because men are being denied something simply because they are men.

 

[Yuoaman]

The Men's Right movement is gross and that is all I will say on the matter.

It gets 0 stars.

 

[Sir Codin]

The Men's Rights movement is just as annoying and posturing as the feminist movement.

 

[Kanzler]

The Men's Rights movement is just as annoying and posturing as the feminist movement.

What do you mean by posturing?

 

[Yoshikko]

[...]
Feminism is flawed in that it assumes the situation of males in society is perfect. It's dangerous in that it does little to recognise that men do face problems and we are not some sort of privileged patriarchal conspiracy. Mens issues can be just as serious as womens issues and with all the focus on female empowerment we are being ignored. Well that's what an MRA would say.

If you look at some of the education statistics in twocows link they paint a picture of men inadvertantly being brought down by feminism and the focus on empowering women in the classroom.

Sorry no, if you would actually do some research and read what feminism is about you'd know that it fights for EQUALITY and that means ALSO for men. The situation of males in society is NOT perfect and men are victims of the patriarchy as well. Feminism is not about the domination of women over men and I don't understand why so many people are convinced it is when a simple 5 minute read can teach you otherwise. What about men always being expected to pay for women, what about men having a way smaller chance of winning custody over a child? Those are all disadvantages men face because of the patriarchy, because of the idea that women take care of the kids, men are the costwinners, which is an ancient patriarchal idea.
The reason it's called feminism is because it focuses on the disadvantageous position of females in particular, like earning less than men on the same job (??? like wtf, you can't actually think that's okay), or getting the blame for being harassed/assaulted/raped etc. based on their clothes or behavior or sexual history.

And what's wrong with empowering women in the classroom?

MRA is absolutley horrible and I strongly suggest that you do some research. The only issue regarding it is that it exists.

 

[Ivysaur]

When I read "Men's Rights Movement", my brain interprets "Keeping Men's Privileges Over Women Movement". I honestly don't understand why anybody would want to defend some gender's rights specifically over the other's, when we all should push for equality. But, if we are going to focus on somebody, the men's Right-O-Meter is on 90% while women have barely started to get out of the "openly and proudly discriminated against" stage. This all feels like "white rights movements", which give a ridiculous "our privilege is the normal and giving up privileges in order to favour equality actually means bringing us down from what we deserve" vibe. It feels like they are pointing down the one particular island of female privilege in the vast ocean and screaming "We are discriminated too! Let's stop all progress in bringing females into our level!".

I think that the concept of gender rights is wrong on its base -equality for everybody should be the goal- but certainly creating a movement to defend the already privileged gender is even wronger.

 

[Oryx]

Rape is wrong because it's a violent crime, not because the victim is a woman; similarly those accused of rape deserve due process because due process is necessary for a just society, not because the accused is a man.

Am I misunderstanding you or does your definition of rape necessitate the victim being a woman and the aggressor being a man?

 

[icomeanon6]

Am I misunderstanding you or does your definition of rape necessitate the victim being a woman and the aggressor being a man?

You're misunderstanding me. I meant to make the point that rape is deeply wrong irrespective of whether it harms women more than men. I probably could have articulated that better, so I apologize for any confusion.

 

[Oryx]

You're misunderstanding me. I meant to make the point that rape is deeply wrong irrespective of whether it harms women more than men. I probably could have articulated that better, so I apologize for any confusion.

I actually think rape is the number 1 example of how, on a societal level, men and women have different problems that stem from the same source. Women have the problem that if they report a rape, they are often blamed for it, ignored, forced into "mediation" in the case of universities, questioned on their sexual history, etc. However, there is no romantic comedy that would put man-on-woman rape into a comedy. Meanwhile, sexual harassment and rape are often in comedies if it's woman-on-man; Horrible Bosses comes immediately to mind. One of the main characters is raped while unconscious by his dentist, and it's meant to be seen as a joke. He's harassed continually in his job and everyone tells him he should be happy.

These are both issues that, in my view, stem from a society that rewards aggressive masculinity and attacks femininity/"weakness", but they can't be approached in the same way at all. Talking about rape on the whole has to be gendered, because you can't address these two issues at once.